Waterstrider Mount Nerf - Discussion and Feedback

[SpiritBinder]

Hey Guys,

Today some info was Datamined....

• Mounts
  
  Azure Water Strider Summons and dismisses a rideable Azure Water Strider. This mount walks on water in non-battleground areas Pandaria until damage is taken. Account wide. 1.5 sec cast.
  Crimson Water Strider Summons and dismisses a rideable Crimson Water Strider. This mount walks on water in non-battleground areas Draenor until damage is taken. Account wide. 1.5 sec cast.

Wowhead mentioned this is likely to make the Fishing Artifact appealing as it has a waterwalking perk, which is not confirmed, though however likely.

I personally find that nerfing things/items that a player has already earned, in order to make new content relevant by attaching what you have already earned another version, is about the opposite of what you want to be doing to your player base to keep them invested.

Now as much as I find this change disturbing and perplexing, I don't want to just fly of into a rant (well I'd like too but...) without some feedback that they may find useful, to help fix the issues they are tying to address, while still maintaining the rewards we have already earned.

To me it looks like they don't want the use of water walking that the waterstriders provide in Legion. But pigeon holing specific mounts/colours to only be active for water walking in expansions gone by, is very limiting.

If they don't want water walking the waterstriders in Legion, til it is earned in another way, what other ways/ ideas do you guys think could/would be a neat way to implement it, with out the current drawback of nerfing the prior waterstriders. Even other ideas to potentially add to the Fishing Artifact to help make it more appealing to compensate?

The more ideas the better, once finished I'd like to present them on the official alpha forums if this nerf goes ahead.

[Castile]

Hmm well that sucks...maybe they have the water walking connected to rep with Nat pagle or something? Like if you're best mates with him you can walk on water for a limited time period and then when you finish the artifact get the whole shebang back?

Not really sure with this one. I would ask if the raft from Pandaria still works in Legion as it's essentially providing the same thing as the mount and why they would nerf the mount and not that?

[SpiritBinder]

Oh good call, I totally forgot about the raft, it's been so long since I've used it. My suspicion is if they are nerfing Mounts, this will certainly be a target too.

One solution is try and make water walking a skill that needs to be learned (Like Flying) per expansion. Though not sure then how this would effect Shaman/DKs/Water Strider pets, it could be easy or hard to code, I have no idea.

It could just be attached to Nat's (Legion Rep) inventory as a book/tome, or a legion fishing achievement, maybe even from a fishing event reward/boss drop, etc. I really like Xota's idea too

Another option would be that learning a water walking mount would unlock water walking for that content and below.

[Castile]

Though not sure then how this would effect Shaman/DKs/Water Strider pets, it could be easy or hard to code, I have no idea.

Or the warlock glyph for the dreadsteed. Kinda makes it redundant if they nerf that too.

[Pewmew]

Back in WoD they used invisible walls to keep low levels out of Tanaan before it was ready. This nerf seems to be to keep people from just riding over to suramar in this expansion since it has such a large coastline.

Which is stupid as they should just invisible wall Suramar until it's ready for it's unlocking event... similar to Tanaan's big opening event.

[Wain]

Actually you can get to Suramar easily. Even without water walking (and there are still plenty of types of water walking without the mount) you could jump off Dalaran and glide there.

But there's already a mechanism in place. As soon as you set foot upon the shores you get teleported back to Dalaran. So I don't think the water walking nerf is for that.

[Wain]

To add my own thoughts to this thread, it's hard to know how to react until we get a response from them. But they may not say anything.

As it stands at this moment, coming after the gutting of so many long-standing useful abilities from BM to make it easier for them to "differentiate specs", I'm over it. I would say it's a cynical and cheap method of furthering game play, which doesn't require great imagination or effort. To take something away so that you can give part of it back. As I said before, that's not creating, that's shuffling existing stuff around. The game design equivalent of creative accounting. There are times when it may be necessary, but I think it has to be used very sparingly. In this particular case I think it's a sign someone has maybe gotten too comfortable with the practice, as it's not a huge game breaking thing they're taking away. Maybe the decision was made by someone who thinks that it's like flying. It isn't. But I'm also aware of how bad it is that I'm making judgments on the thought process of another person, that I am not privy to, but unless they open up about it there's little more to go on.

Both strider mounts required a lot of effort to attain. The Draenor red one was behind such a mindless and ugly grind that few people bothered, some more only recently when they finally nerfed the grind. So many haven't even had it that long. If the decision remains as it is, those mounts will be useless unless you visit the place they came from. You can't even use them in the old world. And you don't even have a choice of colours, you have to use the specific one for that place.

There was a lot more I was going to say about my feelings on the design of this expansion so far, but I realized it was a bit off topic and also probably unfair at this early stage so I deleted it. The only things I've been optimistic about are the tameables and the wardrobe.

[Araucaria]

What if one could "teach" either Water Strider to walk on Legion's, or maybe all the world's, waters through a quest chain tied to the Artifact fishing pole?
If we have to get both mounts to unlock water-walking in two regions, then getting a Water Strider pet or the warlock's glyph for Dreadsteeds doesn't sound so bad.
But if one could upgrade the Water Striders, then the reasons for getting them in first place would be the same, either to have a water-walking mount, or a differently-colored water-walking mount. I don't think I would have gained rep with the Anglers to buy a mount that can only walk on water in Pandaria, when some classes have water-walking abilities.
I'm sure Blizz will do something about this nerf, there are many many possibilities with the fishing Artifact

[Quiv]

I don't get anything about this change. I don't get why its even considered when theres many other ways to achieve water walking. I don't get why its restricted to just Pandaria and Draenor. I understand thats where they originated, but why is a water strider in Northrend bad?

I hope this is a tooltip goof because I can't even fathom the logic that would promote a change like this. Perplexing.

[Equeon]

As it stands at this moment, coming after the gutting of so many long-standing useful abilities from BM to make it easier for them to "differentiate specs", I'm over it. I would say it's a cynical and cheap method of furthering game play, which doesn't require great imagination or effort. To take something away so that you can give part of it back. As I said before, that's not creating, that's shuffling existing stuff around. The game design equivalent of creative accounting. There are times when it may be necessary, but I think it has to be used very sparingly. In this particular case I think it's a sign someone has maybe gotten too comfortable with the practice, as it's not a huge game breaking thing they're taking away. Maybe the decision was made by someone who thinks that it's like flying. It isn't. But I'm also aware of how bad it is that I'm making judgments on the thought process of another person, that I am not privy to, but unless they open up about it there's little more to go on.

Both strider mounts required a lot of effort to attain. The Draenor red one was behind such a mindless and ugly grind that few people bothered, some more only recently when they finally nerfed the grind. So many haven't even had it that long. If the decision remains as it is, those mounts will be useless unless you visit the place they came from. You can't even use them in the old world. And you don't even have a choice of colours, you have to use the specific one for that place.

I don't have anything else to add, as Wain summarized my thoughts perfectly. Well said, and I completely agree that this is reminiscent of the Hunter and Rogue "spec differentiation" - just a different kind of accounting...

[Shinryu Masaki]

I can understand them not wanting it to work in Legion, but why remove it from ALL the older content bellow Pandaria too? Unless they don't want us to easily use water walking prior to flying at level 60? Hopefully they give us an answer to that confusion.

[Pewmew]

MMO-Champion is suggesting that the change is to force people to grind up their artifact fishing rod to unlock it's walkerwalking ability...

[Xota]

MMO-Champion is suggesting that the change is to force people to grind up their artifact fishing rod to unlock it's walkerwalking ability...

They may be right, but I think they're guessing. Unless I've been doing something wrong for years, you can't fish while mounted, but the rod would let you water walk and fish at the same time. Without making the striders a PitA, they could change that ability to allow fishing while mounted. Or unlock striders' water walking ability for broken isles. They gate flying for flying mounts by continent + achievement/gold, it'd take some coding, but something parallel for water walking would be more practical than restricting a mount's abilities per continent. That'd be like if cloud serpents only flew on Pandaria, not before or after.

[Pewmew]

But isn't that how the Angler's raft works? it allows fishing while 'mounted' on the raft.

[Makoes]

what about water walking potions?

[Silivren]

Hey for anyone concerned about this.. read this blue post on this link.

http://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/4027 ... in-legion/

[Vephriel]

Hey for anyone concerned about this.. read this blue post on this link.

http://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/4027 ... in-legion/

Excellent post! Quoting here for ease, I think it's a very logical compromise, though I hope they'll consider lifting the restriction to Legion content once it's old, and so on.

Thanks for the feedback, and I apologize for alarm caused by a seemingly random change. What you see in our weekly Alpha builds is a snapshot of thinking that is often actively evolving, including experiments that we’re about to discard, or solutions to problems that are overly crude just because it’s our first iteration and we simply haven’t come up with anything better yet.

I’d like to shed some light on our thought process in exploring this change. No, we’re not trying to stamp out fun, or destroy the value of hard-won rewards arbitrarily. The concern that drives this process is that mounts are primarily cosmetic choices, and are one of the most visible ways of showing off an aesthetic you enjoy, or an achievement of which you are proud. But water-walking makes Water Striders mechanically superior to other ground mounts in a way that risks removing a feeling of choice. Even if you want to show off that Invincible that you finally managed to farm up, or your Grove Warden, you may end up feeling foolish for using anything other than the Water Strider in areas where you can’t fly, just because it offers that mechanical advantage.

Our initial change was aimed at letting people feel more free to choose the mount that they felt looked coolest, whether in new content or while leveling alts. But as we’ve clearly heard from your feedback, removing the water-walking functionality from pre-existing content feels like we’re taking away something that you have worked hard to earn, and that cost outweighs any benefit from potentially broadened cosmetic options.

So, in the next Alpha build, we’re restoring the ability of Water Striders to walk on water in all pre-Legion content (Azeroth, Outland, Northrend, etc.). The restriction on the mounts’ water-walking ability will now only apply to the Broken Isles and future content beyond that.

[jensketch]

Hey for anyone concerned about this.. read this blue post on this link.

http://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/4027 ... in-legion/

Well, the reaction everywhere was a firestorm of rage (basically) so it's good that they backpedaled and listened.

There was a lot more I was going to say about my feelings on the design of this expansion so far, but I realized it was a bit off topic and also probably unfair at this early stage so I deleted it. The only things I've been optimistic about are the tameables and the wardrobe.

Yeah... I feel you Wain. 8(

[Wain]

Hey for anyone concerned about this.. read this blue post on this link.

http://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/4027 ... in-legion/

Wow, thanks for posting this It seems they listened well and quickly.

I honestly do understand their thinking in that regard, in that in ground-bound situations a water-walking mount will always have superior utility and should, in theory, be more attractive to everyone. In fact when they were introduced this was my concern as well. But the reality seems to be that players love to display their varied mounts, so you usually only see masses of water striders in situations where they have just been required, like players arriving at Oondasta. So in the end I don't think it's been an issue at all.

If they had wanted to discourage their use outside water areas, they could have always gimped their speed on land, like the turtles. Their bodies are supposed to be specialized for running on water after all But again, I don't think there's enough of an issue to warrant that. If there was, if a large % of players were on water striders all the time, I'd definitely support that.

[Xota]

TBH, I did opt to water strider for Timeless Isle sometimes, even if I was running around on land. In case a rare spawn was called and I had to get out to the water quickly. And more than half of that time I'd have to stop and remount anyways, because I'd have taken damage. With damage disabling water walking, and water walking being only occasionally useful, I don't think it's that much of an issue. I don't know the stats though, of people using striders when grounded.