Well said, Tyger. I agree, wholeheartedly.TygerDarkstorm wrote:I guess I don't understand why people would get up in arms over this one NPC. There are a *lot* of NPCs in the game that are much, much more flirtatious to our characters than this one panda who does it in friendly jest one or two times. We also are witness to some pretty horrible stuff within the game (genocide against the human race by Sylvanas, slavery from the goblins and other races, racism from Garrosh, etc). I just feel like if you're going to get upset at one tiny little aspect, then you should be upset with all of the potentially offensive aspects of the game.
A lot of times it's a good thing that a character evokes emotion from you; it gets you thinking and reacting which is better than a character who's stale that no one cares about (*cough* Lor'themar *cough* *cough*).
Could Blizzard have given him a better opening line? Yeah, probably.
Is his opening statement overtly sexual? Depends on who's reading it. I personally think no because I've seen NPCs who are way worse (a certain female boss in Black Temple comes to mind)
If there's one thing I agreed with out of that big thread on the official beta forums it's that Blizzard did create an awkward situation. He either should have a slightly more neutral stance, or he should have been played up on being a flirtatious male and made over the top.
And by the way, it's just as offensive, imo, to "compliment" a guy on his strength if he's not a man that is particularly strong. He might be a scrawny little guy or new to training, or perhaps never took up the fighter's mantle. When someone says a man "looks strong" it can be connotated in a similar fashion to telling a woman she's pretty.
I'm also a little confused by the whole matter. Here we finally have a more curvy, rotund woman being told she's beautiful. Notably the other not so petite with large boobs and ass females (dwarves and tauren and female worgen to some extent) are typically considered ugly by a decent sized portion of the population. Objectifying women (and even men) is not something new to the World of Warcraft nor to the sort of fantasy time frame/era that it portrays. I don't think that we as women need to tolerate blatant sexism, but this doesn't scream as something sexist to me, especially not knowing how the character acts further in the quest lines (at least going off of what I've read since I can't play it myself).
*Note: The word "you" in this post is used as a generalization and not directed at anyone individual. And in case it's not clear, I don't want people to think I think you can't be offended by Ji. By all means feel free to as that's your opinion, I'm just trying to understand things better and point out what I feel are inconsistencies.
Being called 'gorgeous' offensive?
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Re: Being called 'beautiful' offensive?
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Re: Being called 'beautiful' offensive?
Why is the male text calling him manly okay but saying the chick is beautiful and attracts men is not? Its the same thing just fitted for a different gender.
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Re: Being called 'beautiful' offensive?
I'm sorry, but what the fuck is the world coming to...
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Re: Being called 'beautiful' offensive?
The crux of the matter is this, as someone said in another discussion of the text: why is it so hard to see that it's a problem when Blizz has NPCs recognize male PCs for their strength/skills and women PCs for their looks? Yes, it happens in real life. Yes, it's a problem in real life too. I don't want Blizz to contribute to this any further, I don't want to be reminded that I will always be the "weaker" sex when I play, and all Blizz have to do is treat male and female PCs the same! Not that hard.
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Re: Being called 'beautiful' offensive?
Re: Being called 'beautiful' offensive?
The blizz dev didn't mean anything harmful by this..and I'm usually the first to go RAWR POWER TO THE WOMEN..but this time I'm shrugging it off..cause it's not a big deal and I don't care.
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Re: Being called 'beautiful' offensive?
Honestly, I kind of see it in a few possible ways
* The guy is a sort of boisterous extroverted type. He's being friendly and a bit silly.
* I'm not sure what to call it, but it reminds me of how some adults jokingly talked to kids when I was younger. Kinda like some uncle or friend of your parents who hadn't seen you in a long time. I remember running into one of the teachers from elementary school somewhere when I was in junior high and him asking how the new school was going. He asked something like 'How are you settling in? Probably getting to be a lady killer, eh?"
* I'm also reminded of some of the people I've met, known, or worked with who were from other countries with rather different social customs. It's not unusual for them to try to compliment someone as part of a greeting. Due to translation or social differences between cultures, those compliments can sometimes seem awkward or overly forward. I do realize that in the context of the NPC that a cultural difference doesn't really apply, since they're both Pandaren.
* Of course, he could always just be a flirt/lounge lizard/dirty old man/etc. I dunno if he's any worse than the female gnome NPC at the Darkmoon Fair that I noticed for the first time last night. She made some comment about a male player about his well-constructed posterior or something like that.
Granted, I'm a middle-aged male, so I'm probably not as sensitive to the text as others may be. Still, it's not as if the NPC was saying anything like "Woo baby! Nice <body part>!" or "Hey! How much do those things weigh?" It just seems as if some people try hard to find things offensive, sometimes. I'm not saying that that's the case with this particular NPC. I can kind of see how it could be awkward for some people. That's just my opinion of course.
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Re: Being called 'beautiful' offensive?
That said, I'm a bit bothered by the way this topic is simplified. Reading the OP on the Beta-feedback forum the problem isn't being called beautiful per se but a) the way it is done and b) the different treatment of males and females.
For point a), the line "You're some kind of gorgeous, aren't you? I bet you can't keep the men off of you!" is not really on the same level as "you're beautiful". Even people that don't mind the NPC saying that have admitted that they would react negatively to this irl. (Personally, I dislike the second part the most, as being swarmed by men isn't a charming image - it's scary.)
For point b), why does there have to be a different text for males and females. As far as perception goes, why is a male complementing another male's looks perceived as gay? Straight men can tell if another man is handsome and they should be allowed to say so, no? And why is it perceived as weird to complement a woman for her strength? Especially considering that this guy is looking for help on his adventure. Of course he cares about strength! Besides, I've been complemented on my strength - physical and emotional - and yes, that was charming and not weird. Why would it be?
Now, people may not agree with these points but you could at least stick to them. Don't criticize others for things they never even said. Also, looking at the original thread on the beta forums as well as the thread on MMOC (yes, there's a thread there too, and it's downright mean-spirited), it looks to me like the biggest fuzz over this topic comes from the critics, i.e. the people that allegedly think that there is no problem and nothing to talk about. If this problem really was so trivial then the original thread should've died on page one. Instead it's now on page 17 and has spread through the entire WoW community. Apparently Ji has hit a nerve and not just with the people who are offended by him. Honestly, imo we wouldn't be discussing it if it wasn't worth discussing. At the very least it gets people to think about gender roles and their own views on them and that's always a good thing.
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Re: Being called 'beautiful' offensive?
However, in the end, I feel like the quote won't be as significant. With all this stink and fuss made over it, I'd bet that Blizzard is just going to alter Ji and the text entirely to avoid the whole problem. If people get that up in arms, then it is inevitable that Blizzard will do something about it, especially if enough people are upset with it. They're screaming the loudest so Blizz will listen.
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Re: Being called 'beautiful' offensive?
Saying that a guy looks strong is more of a similar equivalent to saying that a woman is pretty. It's a compliment based on *looks* and not any physical attribute. If he were commenting on how actually strong the male pandaren is, the line should read more like "Boy you sure are strong!" which implies that Ji has seen your character in action. So in reality he's complimenting both genders on their looks, and men could get just as offended over what he says to them if they don't identify as being a strong sort of male.
Something in this contextual presentation certainly seems to upset more women than men. Considering how anime-esque Pandaren look, his line fits right in with something sort of Asian feeling (watch an anime in Japanese sometime with the English subtitles; the male characters are insanely perverted), however I can understand being a little put off when you first walk up to him and receive that opening line.
I stand by my feeling that if this one line that does not necessarily imply anything sexual is deeply offending this many people, then these people need to be offended by *all* of the advances made against our characters because there are surely some NPCs out there far more open about the things they would like to do with us. But, just to make it clear, I won't be against Blizzard changing it. I don't necessarily agree that they should, but this guy's line strikes a nerve and since this is still beta I'm sure Blizzard will end up changing it. I think it's great that he's getting so many people to actually stop and think about themselves, although I'm sure it's no fun for it to negatively impact anyone's gameplay.
Edit: The fix some people have offered that I personally like best is giving your character an option to respond to his comment. Anything from like a blush and smile to an outright slap could do, I think.
Another thread with some decently written opinions: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/4362517482
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Re: Being called 'beautiful' offensive?
Unfortunately, things are a little more unequal when it comes to lore characters, seeing how there seem to be more important male characters than female characters, and people have argued that the important female characters are sexist against women (although I don't get the fuss with Sylvanas being "sexist," personally. In my opinion, she's not crazy because she's a woman. She's crazy because she basically redefined her whole reason for living to getting revenge on a single faction of undead at all costs and because she's been dragged out of the grave multiple times by Scourge magic. The former would probably make most people at least a little bit nuts, and there's a trope for the latter.) But even then, Ji's one of the rare NPCs with different dialogue for characters of different genders, along with Harrison Jones, Sergra Darkthorn, and Chip Endale/Candy Cane (the latter two collectively embody the most extreme example of this so far.)
There's also the possibility of a double standard being associated with the idea that a woman attracting legions of men is a bad thing, but a man attracting hordes of women is a good thing due to the assumption that only men can be truly threatening.
Seeing things like this within the context of a story is a touchy subject. On one hand, there's the risk of the story being seen as discriminatory by seeing a character's behavior or society's behavior and assuming they reflect the opinions of the author(s.) On the other hand, improperly-handled political correctness can harm a story's believability.
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Re: Being called 'beautiful' offensive?
Yes. The NPC is coming on a little too strong; I agree with her basic point and also agree that Blizzard probably should tone it down a notch there. Not a huge problem if they don't - I don't consider this "offensive", but yeah it does push the envelope a bit on a rather sensitive matter.Aislinana wrote:It's a subtle difference but it pulled me out of playing for a moment. I am aware that Ji is written to perhaps be slightly too friendly. I know you all have a friend like that. However, how it reads to a woman, especially as a woman in real life - it came off as creepy.
No. Not sure how long the OP at the wow site has been playing the game, but World of Warcraft has a looooong tradition of emphasizing beauty over power for female toons (like how a full breastplate on a male displays as a metal bikini on a female, etc). And given the fact that female pandaren, while not waiflike (thank you Blizz!), nonetheless are cute and shapely (as opposed to males who are well, round), obviously Pandaren are no exception to this tradition, so I would say she was overreaching here.Aislinana wrote:The focus is on how beautiful she is, rather than strong. Given how Pandaren society seems to value strength and poise as gender-neutral traits, why make this guy espouse an exception? Add to the fact that this is stuff I hear from weird random dudes I know all the time, with the added "You and I are going to be good friends"...
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Re: Being called 'beautiful' offensive?
The other problem, as other have said, is that there is such a drastic difference between how the males and females are treated. I can see how both are looks based. That actually isn't the problem. To me, the problem is that the way the male lined is phrased implies that the males have control over the situation. They bring they ladies to them. The male is in control of the situation. Aggressive. Powerful. Deciders of their own fate. The way the female line is phrased implies that the female will get male attention whether she likes it or not and it is up to her to "keep them off her" If she can.... Passive. Weak. And possibly a victim. This is why it makes me queasy.
That being said, its not deal breaker. I'll play MoP whether its in there or not. But I reserve the right to kick Ji in his panda fuzzies at every opportunity.
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Re: Being called 'beautiful' offensive?
That I will agree with.Teigan wrote:I really think that the title of the post is different than what is actually being discussed. If a male npc called my character beautiful, I would probably think it was sweet. However, the npc doesn't say that. "some kind of gorgeous" is not "beautiful"
The rest I think is a gray area - wow is and always has been somewhat sexist (well to be fair, most every video game is - I don't mean to single Blizzard out here), the question (to me at least) is whether this is a shade of gray too far.
My 0.2 anyway.
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Re: Being called 'beautiful' offensive?
Yes indeed it does. :/Nili wrote:yey lets be politically correct..all the time.. cause that sounds like so much fun.
Even if they change it to like beautiful or nice or something it's bound to still get a fuss over it or heck even make it the same dialog as the men it's still going to get complainers. :S
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Re: Being called 'beautiful' offensive?
I mean people are taking this a bit too deeply. I mean it's just supposed to be a sort of 'funny' lighthearted greeting. I don't think it's offensive at all. When I did the quest, I barely even recognized he had said that. But I'm pretty sure there's other instances where female characters are referred to as pretty, and I've never heard an uproar over it. o_O
edit:
In fact, pretty sure when I quested in Uldum, there's a Harrison Jones quest where he tells you to step back so you don't get hurt (hurt that pretty face of yours, or something). Never heard an uproar about that XD
I dunno. People find the strangest things to get worked up over. heehee
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Re: Being called 'beautiful' offensive?
I honestly have no problem with women being sexy. My DK proudly sports the Warrior's Embrace as her transmog. That's the plate armor bra, in case you didn't know. I am not PC at all times. I think my characters can kick as and look sexy doing it. I don't have a problem with them being appreciated for their looks, as long as that's not the only thing.Nili wrote:yey lets be politically correct..all the time.. cause that sounds like so much fun.
I do have a problem with perpetuating the idea that women are passive and not in control of men's advances. That is deeply ingrained in our culture's "psyche" and does not need any encouragement. Its kinda like saying that a white NPC in blackface doing racist stereotypes of black people is ok. We can all agree that would not be ok.
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Re: Being called 'beautiful' offensive?
Ji is a loud, boisterous character who's a little bit of a moron, but tries to have well meaning. He acts and speaks before he thinks.
I can agree that just this line alone is a little off-putting and I think if they leave it in they should give females the option to respond to him. I think the ability to respond to him in some sort of fashion would go a long way in helping people be a bit more accepting of him. But I don't think it's a bad thing to have characters in the game that say and do things we don't agree with.
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Re: Being called 'beautiful' offensive?
But the NPC DOES make a comment about the male characters, saying that he "bets they're good with the ladies," which is an assumption based entirely on the male characters' looks alone. He's calling them handsome.Mania wrote:Keep it nice in this thread or I'm going to go off on you. And I can do that now since I'm not a Moderator - just the bipolar admin. And by keep it nice, I mean don't assume that insecure people are looking for a reason to be offended and just want to cause a fight. That may be true for some people, but it's not true for everyone with thoughts on this topic.
And Xakaal, if you use the word retarded again here I will ban you. You know better.
Playing through the panda newbie experience, I specifically noticed this NPC text. It stood out to me, mostly because I have seen how Blizzard has handled similar things in the past. I went back and played through to that point with a male character because I wanted to see what the NPC said to males. I was very disappointed to see that his in-character over-friendliness was ruined by the completely different contextual messages in his speech. And yes, I think in words like that when I'm reading quest text.
You don't think the messages are contextually different? Then why, if the NPC said something the same thing to male characters, would he be openly gay? Why would one message be a statement about his sexuality when the other is an over-friendly comment of your abilities as a warrior?
There is a reason I don't have any goblin hunters - because I refuse to play through the goblin newbie experience again. A large part of that is how Blizzard handled the same situation there, where the text that a female character gets is contextually very different from the text that a male character gets. (And never mind that the text makes no sense at all if your character happens to be gay.)
Yes, people sometimes act like this in real life. That's neither here nor there. (Remember when female characters took a stat penalty in RPGs? I do.) But in this case specifically, the gender-based difference in NPC text actually detracts from the main goal - making this NPC seem goofily overly-friendly.
I'm sorry that I hurt your feelings, but I stand my ground in thinking it's a little ridiculous to get so offended over a statement made by a cartoon panda that was taken largely out of context.
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Re: Being called 'gorgeous' offensive?
But yeah....to everyone saying "He's telling the men they're strong and the ladies are weak", he's not. That's being blown out of proportion. He's complimenting on BOTH genders looks. "You look strong" "You look gorgeous". Don't know about you but I think it's pretty awesome for someone to say I'm pretty then show em I'm more than a pretty face.
And again, theres a ton of NPCs that have flirted with characters (Brewfest anyone) yet no one complains about them. It's baffling really.....