Battle for Azeroth Story Thread (Spoilers within)

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Inay
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Re: Battle for Azeroth Story Thread (Spoilers within)

#101 Unread post by Inay » Wed May 02, 2018 1:03 am

I admit that the poor lady Mia have so next to nothing presence, my first thought was "... He have a wife?"
(And now they bring her back only to fridge her. That is quite shitty writing, and I believe she deserve better.)
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Re: Battle for Azeroth Story Thread (Spoilers within)

#102 Unread post by Valnaaros » Wed May 02, 2018 1:11 am

The only reason that I can think of as to why they would bring her back only to have her killed is to give the Alliance even more reason to fight the Horde, and to give Genn more reason to hate them.

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Re: Battle for Azeroth Story Thread (Spoilers within)

#103 Unread post by cowmuflage » Wed May 02, 2018 1:38 am

Valnaaros wrote:No kidding, Castile. It surprises me how there are still people that are defending Sylvanas after all of this. This is just another reason for the Alliance to want to fight the Horde and kill Sylvanas, and the Horde still doesn't have any reasons to want to fight the Alliance (I wish there were reasons).

I liked it when it was about shades of grey. Say what you will about the writing in cata but at least back then they had the Alliance doing horrible stuff and even at the start of MoP they too had panda slaves in the Jade forest just like the Horde did. It was not just Horde does evil stuff cus Horde, Alliance does good cus Alliance!


Now it's boring Alliance are the good guys and Horde are the bad guys and it's just bad writing. How come the Horde have to be the bad ones? Make an Alliance leader go bad, Old Mr Worgen would be perfect for that role.

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Re: Battle for Azeroth Story Thread (Spoilers within)

#104 Unread post by Vephriel » Wed May 02, 2018 1:41 am

Hope I can skin Greymane and use him for a fur cloak. :D

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Re: Battle for Azeroth Story Thread (Spoilers within)

#105 Unread post by Rikaku » Wed May 02, 2018 1:45 am

Valnaaros wrote:The only reason that I can think of as to why they would bring her back only to have her killed is to give the Alliance even more reason to fight the Horde, and to give Genn more reason to hate them.
Most likely, and for the other reasons mentioned here. A lot of players didn't seem aware of Genn's son being killed by Sylvanas (or at least, not aware of all circumstances about this) since it was tied behind the Worgen starting zone. So many players just didn't experience that chunk of story. My guess is by bringing another family member into the story for Genn, and by making this not locked behind some specific races' starting zones, it will be seen by more individuals and maybe be some sort of justification (or additional justification).


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Re: Battle for Azeroth Story Thread (Spoilers within)

#106 Unread post by Castile » Wed May 02, 2018 2:15 am

Vephriel wrote:Hope I can skin Greymane and use him for a fur cloak. :D
Only if we get to put Sylvanas head on a pike ;)

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Re: Battle for Azeroth Story Thread (Spoilers within)

#107 Unread post by Wain » Wed May 02, 2018 7:54 am

Yeah, the Sylvanas thing is odd. For some reason she was always popular, long before she became quite this dark. I never understood it, and I just accept that I don't get it. It's also sad that the only female Horde leader is the most sinister and seems to be heading for a bad end.

But watching the reactions of her fans to current events is interesting, as it seems to me that they fall into two camps. Some accept that she's doing terrible things, and usually regret the fact that Blizzard is doing so to yet another Warchief (and I agree it's all been done before which makes me wonder if there's going to be an unexpected twist). But others can't seem to accept that it's even happening and will perform all kinds of mental (and ethical) gymnastics to deny it.
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Re: Battle for Azeroth Story Thread (Spoilers within)

#108 Unread post by Wain » Wed May 02, 2018 8:08 am

cowmuflage wrote:
Valnaaros wrote:No kidding, Castile. It surprises me how there are still people that are defending Sylvanas after all of this. This is just another reason for the Alliance to want to fight the Horde and kill Sylvanas, and the Horde still doesn't have any reasons to want to fight the Alliance (I wish there were reasons).
I liked it when it was about shades of grey. Say what you will about the writing in cata but at least back then they had the Alliance doing horrible stuff and even at the start of MoP they too had panda slaves in the Jade forest just like the Horde did. It was not just Horde does evil stuff cus Horde, Alliance does good cus Alliance!
Now it's boring Alliance are the good guys and Horde are the bad guys and it's just bad writing. How come the Horde have to be the bad ones? Make an Alliance leader go bad, Old Mr Worgen would be perfect for that role.
I think it's too late - if they turned Greymane evil at this point, it would also be soap-opera storytelling. I hope we're past the "character has a mental break and suddenly turns evil" thing. It's truly amateur writing. Plus he's a noble guy who has suffered a lot of personal loss and it would be cheap to use that to make him into a villain.

I suspect the problem is that Alliance politics has from the start been too simplistic and smooth, and it's very hard to change that now. If there had been differing ambitions built into the Alliance races from the beginning then there'd be a lot of great seeds for factional turmoil, but for the most part it isn't there. Maybe with the Dark Irons taking more of a role we'll see something.
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Re: Battle for Azeroth Story Thread (Spoilers within)

#109 Unread post by Valnaaros » Wed May 02, 2018 10:14 am

Agreed. Many have been hoping that Genn will just break at this point, but like you said, it would be amateur writing. And I honestly wouldn't want to see an Alliance character go evil just for the sake of the Alliance having an evil character.

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Re: Battle for Azeroth Story Thread (Spoilers within)

#110 Unread post by cowmuflage » Wed May 02, 2018 3:42 pm

Wain wrote:
cowmuflage wrote:
Valnaaros wrote:No kidding, Castile. It surprises me how there are still people that are defending Sylvanas after all of this. This is just another reason for the Alliance to want to fight the Horde and kill Sylvanas, and the Horde still doesn't have any reasons to want to fight the Alliance (I wish there were reasons).
I liked it when it was about shades of grey. Say what you will about the writing in cata but at least back then they had the Alliance doing horrible stuff and even at the start of MoP they too had panda slaves in the Jade forest just like the Horde did. It was not just Horde does evil stuff cus Horde, Alliance does good cus Alliance!
Now it's boring Alliance are the good guys and Horde are the bad guys and it's just bad writing. How come the Horde have to be the bad ones? Make an Alliance leader go bad, Old Mr Worgen would be perfect for that role.
I think it's too late - if they turned Greymane evil at this point, it would also be soap-opera storytelling. I hope we're past the "character has a mental break and suddenly turns evil" thing. It's truly amateur writing. Plus he's a noble guy who has suffered a lot of personal loss and it would be cheap to use that to make him into a villain.

I suspect the problem is that Alliance politics has from the start been too simplistic and smooth, and it's very hard to change that now. If there had been differing ambitions built into the Alliance races from the beginning then there'd be a lot of great seeds for factional turmoil, but for the most part it isn't there. Maybe with the Dark Irons taking more of a role we'll see something.
It might be bad writing but they've shown time and time again that that's what they do. Look at the mess that is every Horde character >.>

I'm just sick of seeing them turning Horde characters into evil people, i'd just like it to be on the other foot you know? If not Greymane why not Jaina? Why does it always have to be Horde? It would shut up the high and mighty Alliance fanboys for a change.

Also they could at least stop killing Horde characters off for a change too. We don't even have a troll leader and if we do I've never seen them in game.

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Re: Battle for Azeroth Story Thread (Spoilers within)

#111 Unread post by Silivren » Wed May 02, 2018 3:47 pm

Castile wrote:
Vephriel wrote:Hope I can skin Greymane and use him for a fur cloak. :D
Only if we get to put Sylvanas head on a pike ;)
This.

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Re: Battle for Azeroth Story Thread (Spoilers within)

#112 Unread post by Valnaaros » Wed May 02, 2018 3:56 pm

I would prefer if neither side was evil, but both would sometimes do questionable things. Either that or they just need to make the Horde entirely evil. Part of the problem with the current Horde is that they are trying to make them out to be a faction based off of Orc values like honor whilst also being willing to do evil things. They can't really be both.

I am doubtful they are going to hit Jaina with the villain bat. She might die in BfA, but I don't think that it'll be due to her becoming a villain.

The Darkspear leader might be Rokhan, but there hasn't been confirmation of that yet.

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Re: Battle for Azeroth Story Thread (Spoilers within)

#113 Unread post by cowmuflage » Wed May 02, 2018 4:01 pm

That's all I want is for both factions to be shades of grey. They both where in Cata and at the start of MoP! I don't like Good vs Evil when it comes to this kind of thing.

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Re: Battle for Azeroth Story Thread (Spoilers within)

#114 Unread post by Castile » Thu May 03, 2018 12:00 am

cowmuflage wrote:That's all I want is for both factions to be shades of grey. They both where in Cata and at the start of MoP! I don't like Good vs Evil when it comes to this kind of thing.
Probably won't see any of that this xpac Cow as they are going back to the 'Orcs vs Human' roots of the game (which for all intents and purposes pits the Horde as the "bad guys"). I think blizzard have decided we've been friends long enough it seems :?

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Re: Battle for Azeroth Story Thread (Spoilers within)

#115 Unread post by Inay » Thu May 03, 2018 12:04 am

cowmuflage wrote:That's all I want is for both factions to be shades of grey. They both where in Cata and at the start of MoP! I don't like Good vs Evil when it comes to this kind of thing.
Same.
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Re: Battle for Azeroth Story Thread (Spoilers within)

#116 Unread post by Valnaaros » Thu May 03, 2018 12:13 am

Castile wrote:
cowmuflage wrote:That's all I want is for both factions to be shades of grey. They both where in Cata and at the start of MoP! I don't like Good vs Evil when it comes to this kind of thing.
Probably won't see any of that this xpac Cow as they are going back to the 'Orcs vs Human' roots of the game (which for all intents and purposes pits the Horde as the "bad guys"). I think blizzard have decided we've been friends long enough it seems :?
I found it really odd that Ion brought up Warcraft 1 as an example of nuance, even though Orcs were basically made out to be satanic invaders from another world and Humans were god-worshipping knights.

Hopefully Blizz is still holding to what they said at Blizzcon and will end the faction conflict for good with this xpac.

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Re: Battle for Azeroth Story Thread (Spoilers within)

#117 Unread post by Wain » Thu May 03, 2018 1:31 am

cowmuflage wrote:That's all I want is for both factions to be shades of grey. They both where in Cata and at the start of MoP! I don't like Good vs Evil when it comes to this kind of thing.
I agree. My reply before was only because they've set up a story that is now difficult to do that with, without looking like they're randomly changing directions, like a soap opera. When we first encountered the Gilneans, for example, they could have built all kinds of potential issues into the characters for them to erupt at later time points, but they didn't - like the death knights, the worgen are just misunderstood but noble people who want to serve their faction. They're really going to have to build more into the characters, several expansions ahead, if they want friction in later stories to be in any way believable and not just a sharp turn in plot. I've always found the zone stories to be far more compelling, and beautifully written, than the overarching stories. Despite so many people not liking Draenor, I think some of the zone stories from that expansion, (other than the Frostfire Scooby Doo ending!) represent some of the best storytelling we've seen in the game.
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Re: Battle for Azeroth Story Thread (Spoilers within)

#118 Unread post by cowmuflage » Thu May 03, 2018 2:50 am

Wain wrote:
cowmuflage wrote:That's all I want is for both factions to be shades of grey. They both where in Cata and at the start of MoP! I don't like Good vs Evil when it comes to this kind of thing.
I agree. My reply before was only because they've set up a story that is now difficult to do that with, without looking like they're randomly changing directions, like a soap opera. When we first encountered the Gilneans, for example, they could have built all kinds of potential issues into the characters for them to erupt at later time points, but they didn't - like the death knights, the worgen are just misunderstood but noble people who want to serve their faction. They're really going to have to build more into the characters, several expansions ahead, if they want friction in later stories to be in any way believable and not just a sharp turn in plot. I've always found the zone stories to be far more compelling, and beautifully written, than the overarching stories. Despite so many people not liking Draenor, I think some of the zone stories from that expansion, (other than the Frostfire Scooby Doo ending!) represent some of the best storytelling we've seen in the game.
Ah I get ya now, I think I got a bit confused there. I agree the zone stories to be more interesting. I liked the Horde side Stonetalon story personally. After thinking on it that ending in Frostfire really is a Scooby Doo ending! :lol:

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Re: Battle for Azeroth Story Thread (Spoilers within)

#119 Unread post by Xota » Thu May 03, 2018 2:19 pm

Jaina's been a villain since the purging of Dalaran. Her villainy just hasn't come to head yet.

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Re: Battle for Azeroth Story Thread (Spoilers within)

#120 Unread post by Valnaaros » Thu May 03, 2018 3:00 pm

I don't agree with everything that Jaina has done, but like Genn, her anger is justified. For years she has tried to create peace between the Horde and Alliance. She was even willing to kill her own father in order to accomplish this. Even when events like the Wrathgate happened, she still tried for peace. But you can only push someone so far before they will break, and that is what happened in Tides of War.

"> The shape looked like a child at first, which was what drew Jaina’s eye. The children had all been evacuated safely. Who—

> And then she knew.

> Jaina stood, barely breathing, wanting to look away but unable to. Slowly, jerkily, her feet moved, almost of their own accord, taking her to the body.

> Kinndy lay face down in a still puddle of her own blood. The crimson stain had tainted her pink hair, matting it, and Jaina realized she wanted to plop Kinndy into a hot bath and help her scrub herself clean, get her a fresh new robe—

> She fell to her knees and placed a hand on the girl’s shoulder, to turn her over. Kinndy’s body crumbled into shining violet dust.

> Jaina screamed.

> She screamed in utter horror, frantically gathering up the crystalline powder that was all that remained of a smart, lively young woman. She screamed in loss, in grief, in guilt, and then most of all, in rage.

> Rage at the Horde. Rage at Garrosh Hellscream, rage at those who followed him. Rage at Baine Bloodhoof, who had warned her but had nonetheless permitted this to happen. Had perhaps known this was going to happen. Her screaming turned to racking, hoarse sobs that ripped her throat. She kept lifting handfuls of the purple sand, trying to hold on to Kinndy, her sobbing increasing as the dust persisted in trickling through her fingers.

> This wasn’t war. This wasn’t even *murder*. This was obliteration, done at a comfortable distance. Killing in the most brutal and cowardly fashion Jaina could conceive of.

After this, Jaina no longer believed as she once did that there could be peace with the Horde. Despite this, she allowed for the Sunreavers to remain in Dalaran, until their portal networks were used to infiltrate Darnassus (with Aethas' knowledge). Jaina gave all of the Blood Elves a chance to surrender and be imprisoned. She only killed those that resisted. Blizz said in an interview that Jaina randomly killing BEs was a bug.

After War Crimes, Jaina seemed to have mellowed out a little bit. As she during the Horde version of the WoD ring questline, she didn't trust the Horde nor like them, but she wasn't hostile nor prevented them from entering the Kirin Tor's base in Talador.

Then we get to the Broken Shore. Despite reservations, she worked with the Horde in trying to end the Legion invasion. Then, right when the Alliance needed them the most, the Horde retreated. To the Alliance, the Horde was abandoning them. They didn't know the real reason why they left. After the return to SW, Jaina was furious with the Horde. To her, they left her king to die. We will probably learn what she has been up to in the next novel.

Jaina is a tramautized character, and I don't agree with everything that she has done. But I do not view her as a true villain.

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