Valnaaros wrote: Blizz has been inconsistent when it comes to reanimation and what it does to those reanimated.
Yes and no. Yes, it's inconsistent, but not because "Blizz is being inconsistent" It's inconsistent because it affects different people differently. This has been stated more than once, both in the Forsaken Starting area and later on. For instance in the Horde Campaign you go to raise an Alliance leader, and when you do "Undeath" has hit her pretty hard. She's far more towards "Zombie" Than flouncy bouncy undead PC. It becomes an issue and she runs off into the woods at one point. Voss sends you to get some herbs to help her sort of snap out of it. Such information didn't just spring wholecloth. That means the undead know of this possibility and have ways to deal with it.
Also in the Undead starting zone there's bunches of mindless undead running around that reanimation did not 'Stick' with.
Valnaaros wrote:
Sylvanas, Marshal Redpath, Lilian Voss, Lord Godfrey, Galen Trollbane, and others have been reanimated by their murderers and were not instantly loyal to them.
Sylvanas was. It took her a while to break free. But again it affects different people differently.
Valnaaros wrote:
Then there are others such as the Hillsbrad Humans, Silverpine Humans, the Kirin Tor in Silverpine, the Kul Tiran heroes in BfA, the Alliance soldiers in 8.1, and Kaldorei in 8.1 that are, for not reason, loyal to the people that killed them; which makes absolutely no sense.
Ehhh.. it kinda does. They're not 'named/important npcs" so they don't have the will to resist it, or to buck the system, etc. You don't expect the average rank and file GI in a war movie to suddenly and out of no where step up to save the day. They're there to die for the movie. The named characters you've been watching all film are the heroes/villians. But In world, those ones you listed off were just average people. The ones that it affects differently are either above or below average.
Valnaaros wrote:
It would be like Arthas killing Sylvanas, reanimating her, she retains free will and continues to help him with killing her own people.
When she was raised she was under Arthas control until eventually that control slipped and due to being such a willful individual (Hero) She eventually broke free and then became a becon for others to go to and join. Nathanos for example was a (near) mindless scourge UNTIL Sylvanas went and 'freed' him. Only with her influence could he find his way back to a thinking state. Now he's her general, trainer, and right hand.
Valnaaros wrote:
The means through which new Forsaken have been reanimated hasn't been changed. The Val'kyr that reanimated them back in Cata (possibly prior) are the same ones doing so now.
They are, but also, just as different people handle being turned undead in different ways, the Val'kyr have different..... levels of effort they can put into it too. We see this demonstrated in the story about how Nathanos got rid of his old rotting body and got a new freshy one. The ritual that the Val'kyr went through to acheive it seriously weakened her (For a while? For ever?) But it shows that your normal every day raising is only one service they show.
Also remember there are 'levels' of Val'kyr. There are the bigguns. The 'Original 9' of which we only have a handful left, but there are also 'Lesser val'kyr' that can ALSO Raise people. We see them in Adoral etc. So... maybe your lesser val'kyr can raise rank and file forsaken to fill the levies and cannon fodder and the greater Val'kyr are the one's used to raise hero units and for the more complicated stuff.
Valnaaros wrote:
That's true, part of the reason that the Forsaken were they way they were was due to rejection from their families, but that has been changed with Before the Storm. The Alliance showed that they don't actually hate them and are willing to mend relationships with them. Even Genn has softened his stance and doesn't believe all Forsaken are evil -- only Sylvanas.
Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm No. Not really. Not at all actually.
Anduin, "Lets hug it out" Went against EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEVERYONE To arrange that meeting.
In that meeting 20 alliance members (Or less) Went to see 20 forsaken. I say or less because one member went to see three undead sons so that would seem to imply less than 20 alliance took the field.
Before they even started some of the alliance took one look and turned and walked off. Rejecting the undead counterparts. Some others went up and tried to talk and STILL left. On the horde side when those that were rejected came back Sylvanas was all like "I frakin' told you! They won't accept you"
So of the 20, we have a subset, that's not exact, but clearly a number smaller than 20 that staid and tried to talk to the undead.
This isn't a sweeping change. This is 10 or so people that for a few minutes stomach'd the proximity of their dead family etc. Of them a smaller subset. That we know of... one. Truely accepted the forsaken (Her father)
This lead to mutiny of about 10 forsaken. They started trying to defect. Sylvanas blew the horn. Some turned back. So of the 10... a subset of THAT turned back towards the wall, but it was too late at that point and Sylvanas had all 10 killed. (As a note people freaked and acted like sylvanas conducted a massacre or something. She killed about 10 people over half of wich were defecting to the enemy and had been warned.)
So "The alliance" DIdn't show anything. NOONE but Anduin thought it'd work. And.. it didn't. The majority of those 20 couldn't stomach their dead counterparts and most of the others just chatted for a few minutes. Only the daughter truly accepted and that lead to the Massacre.
Past that Callia trying to usurp Sylvanas didn't help and while Genn said that he saw something new, and wasn't sorry he came, he's not turned over a new glowing leaf. You did play through the fall of lorderan right? Genn and all his stuff there? He may not be a Furry Pittbull about it but his 'softening' is only a notch down from 11. That still leaves it at about a 10.
Valnaaros wrote:
I don't know what Blizz is planning, but a lot of it doesn't make any sense.
It does if y ou don't look at being raised as undead as a binary situation.Where you're either 100% loyal or 0% loyal. The game never presents it that way.
Valnaaros wrote: There is no reason why a Kaldorei -- whom was literally murdered moments prior to being reanimated by their murderer, would willingly help them with wiping out the rest of their race.
There's reason. You just have to look at it from their PoV. Dalayn and Sira even allude to it. One points out along the way "Where was Elune, when the tree burned, when all those night elves died. They prayed and she didn't come. Didn't help" (Paraphrased)
It's sort of like being a christian and praying for lord's favor when the romans came down the road and oops. Dead. It's easy to lose faith in that sort of situation.
Then you die... and the Night Elf Afterlife is not there. A pretty big 'lie' and shattering of your faith. You're then given a choice. The darkness of the abyss or to come back and fight for the one that rescues you from -literal- death. You're brought back. It becomes a matter of 'Where was your god when you needed her? Where was all her magic and light? Ohhhh she letyou BBQ and cook alive? Well here's a queen that saves you LITERALLY From the abyss.
So with the 'betrayal' of the goddess (And lets not forget Tyrande was out co-chillin' with the humans who -failed- to show up in time, and even during the Warfront that's coming up. Told Tyrande they didn't have anyone to spare to help her... they'll get around to it later.
So their goddess Elune didn't save them
Their queen was off dicking around with humans and didn't show up till the fighting was over.
Malfurion got his ass kicked AGAIN and had to be saved AGAIN, and that dude is prone to 1000 year naps anyway. Not really someone you can count on.
It's very easy to see one's discontent being manifested fully when you die, Elune isn't there to cuddle you to her ample boosum. Oh no.. but Sylvanas is there. (Figerativly) She offers you another chance at 'life' (Undeath) and the ability to sick it to those people that betrayed you and failed you in life.
It's also very distinctly indicated that 'undeath' in and of itself mutes the 'softer' emotions. Love. Compassion. Friendleness. Friendship. While amping up the more harsh ones. Hate, rage, anger, betrayal.
So if you already feel betrayed, by your god, by your queen, by everyone. You die and the love and compassion you had for... anything.. is turned way down. Not destroyed but severely muted. It's very easy to see why your allegence could switch. More over some are very likely given the "Serve us and live again. Don't and fall to the abyss" Fear of that final death keeps them from stepping out of line.
So there's plenty of reasons for the sudden shift, with out even working 'Magic, that's why' into the equation.
Valnaaros wrote:
Or why Kul Tiran heroes would instantly turn against their own countrymen. Many people are starting to think that the Forsaken really don't have free will (which is supported by death VOs of Forsaken and risen Kaldorei), but that Blizz isn't coming right out and stating that Sylvanas is partially or completely mind controlling them.
It's a version of Freedom by choice of service. They're 'free' because they're given the 'choice' to serve sylvanas or... go ahead and die. In that agreement "You come back to life but serve me" you agree to such service. If you choose not to, they thank you for your time (More or less) and return you to the grave.
But once you make that pledge, Sylvanas expects you to live by it. You made that devil's bargin afterall. You were given the choice. You 'could' have chosen death. If you read Before the storm. Sylvanas is concerned by the undead that think their time on Azeroth is done and they've been undead 'too long' and would like to 'die' more or less. Not because she's an evil bitch, but because they're her people and she wants them to 'live' (such as it is.)
Now the further down the 'chain' you go, the less and less cognizant thought you're going to find. I.E. the Forsaken that are barely more than Zombies are likely strapped into armor. Handed weapons and pointed at the enemy. but others, such as the one going through bins off spare parts and 'repairing' other forsaken, are forsaken by choice.