Wishlist for Hunter Pet System Changes in 10.0

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worgpower
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Re: Wishlist for Hunter Pet System Changes in 10.0

Unread post by worgpower »

DannyGreen wrote: Thu Jul 07, 2022 11:06 pm There comment just seemed like a whole load of nothing. Fancy words to say, you're still not gonna use pets you want.

NOW Let's give them the benefit of the doubt and assume it's weasel words. They COULD be saying things are changing with the whole mortal wound thing. But I doubt it.

As for a change that could possibly work...
Maybe pets do get their own trees. Well. One tree.
And pets start with a few points in a certain starting tree like the other specs seem to be doing.
So the turtle starts with a few points in thick hide to start with, and a Fox would have a few points in dodge. Etc.

That's me huffing copium though.
That seems like a good idea, if players are getting talent tree revamps, so should hunter pets, there was lots of ways to talent your pet back in cataclysm when I started, and in Mop choosing specs was like picking talents
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Re: Wishlist for Hunter Pet System Changes in 10.0

Unread post by SylviaDragon »

yeah just saw the post. Lots of non committal wording alluding to not changing anything. Honestly kind of surprising, considering its a change most hunters would strongly support + the past evidence of the WoD pet model working really well. I thought for sure it would be a shoe-in. Hopefully I'm wrong and they change it but i'm not going to hold my breath. Incredibly disappointing. :/

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Re: Wishlist for Hunter Pet System Changes in 10.0

Unread post by Vephriel »

SylviaDragon wrote: Fri Jul 08, 2022 1:33 am yeah just saw the post. Lots of non committal wording alluding to not changing anything. Honestly kind of surprising, considering its a change most hunters would strongly support + the past evidence of the WoD pet model working really well. I thought for sure it would be a shoe-in. Hopefully I'm wrong and they change it but i'm not going to hold my breath. Incredibly disappointing. :/
I felt the same, was really hoping with all of the feedback we've been giving and how strongly most of us seem to want something done to the pet system, it was disappointing to read that it doesn't sound like they'll be changing much in that regard. As you said it was a bit vague/non-committal so maybe they'll surprise us but I was hoping for a bit more.
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Re: Wishlist for Hunter Pet System Changes in 10.0

Unread post by Wain »

I agree, most of the blue post read much like a political statement in which a great deal of words are expended, eloquently, to simply justify the status quo and give no commitments. I appreciated that they at least made an effort at communication, but in practice it didn't commit to anything, or even hint at what kinds of changes we might see. Hopefully they take some of the feedback on board.

Our own Maizou posted her reply here:
https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wow/t ... /1271614/9

And I replied with a summary of my thoughts here:
https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wow/t ... 1271614/12
(mostly just a copy of what I put in the OP, and put fairly bluntly - my brain is just too foggy for subtlety today)

Were any of the other replies from Petopians? Sorry if I missed any.
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Re: Wishlist for Hunter Pet System Changes in 10.0

Unread post by worgpower »

I saw the whole post and agree with what they say, I did notice blizzard is clearly not listening to feedback clearly like the mortal wounds turtle like what?? I wish they looked back at pet interaction back early compared to today, spec changing does help the looks solution, whenever I play hunter I must always stick to a ferocity pet for all content, it’s a good thing one of my favorite pets are ferocity, and as for the removal of “exotic flag” on families, I agree as always
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Re: Wishlist for Hunter Pet System Changes in 10.0

Unread post by WerebearGuy »

I reread the post while not being half asleep, and man do I want to tear into it.

"Pet identity is a thing that’s important, but pets having some uniqueness is also important."

Turtles, cats, and foxes are mentioned. They also claim to not want to follow reality to the letter, but they're causing animals to look like one-trick ponies. Turtles can be fierce if you anger them since they have beaks, and beaks absolutely do hurt if they bite hard enough. Turtles are smart animals that can learn just as much (if not more) than a dog, despite the hurtful concept of slow moving being slow in the head. Cats are absolutely known for being territorial, defending their turf like gangs do. Cats are absolutely known for being smart and outwitting their own masters (not true of course since they're actually dumb as hell, but their cuteness makes up for it). Foxes are fierce hunters in the wild, being active carnivores that will make their prey stop moving just as efficiently as a wolf or cat. Foxes are tenacious in that they will not give you a chance to catch them if they know you're after them, and will do anything they can to escape if fighting is not an option. A turtle's WoW identity is that of a weak and stupid shield, a cat's WoW identity is that of a frail and stupid fighter, and a fox's WoW identity is that of a weak and frail nerd. Those identities are pretty bad.

"Are things perfectly balanced among the pets with abilities? Probably not. Could it be better? Certainly."
Should they stop being snarky and actually make an effort to fix things? Yes.

"Forcing a second pet that had a distinct wolf look on every BM hunter for the whole expansion wasn’t something we wanted to do..."
And yet they did. For a long time. Hati is a wolf in Norse mythology, and it was clear that they went with that theme. Why else would it initially be a wolf with a clearly Nordic origin? Because they wanted us to have a distinct wolf look for our second pet.

"Revive Pet, and Dismiss Pet being difficult to use is an intentional change that we don’t have plans on adjusting currently." + the rest of that BS
Others said it well, and this particular part has already been ripped apart like the trash it is. The bottom line is that this was a change purely intended to hinder players, and literally nothing more. Any other excuse is dodging the truth.

"We’re always looking to improve pathing for both players and pets and make things smarter and more user friendly."
Pathing has been an issue for a very long time. It's such a simple fix, too; just let our pets move where we are allowed to move. Take the extra time needed to define player-accessible space, and have it so pets can move freely in that space to go directly towards their target. Players have the command to finely control their pets' movement, and with the reintroduction of Eyes of the Beast, we can now properly position our pets in the most efficient manner. If the player can move the pet in that direction, then there is ZERO reason for the pet to not be able to do the same thing with a simplified pathing AI. It doesn't need to be perfect; just make it work in the space that we're allowed to use. If calling the pet back aggros the entire dungeon, then blame the hunter since that IS the hunter's fault for not controlling the beast. Just make it so they can't go through walls or over mountains that players can't cross. This goes for other pet classes too.

There was also a comment on Wowhead that made the most sense for how to best approach pets. I don't know how to directly link a comment, but here's the quote:

Code: Select all

There isn't a single hunter that thinks locked specs is good. They outright know that nobody wants to use cunning, especially considering it brings NOTHING of value to the table. It exists purely to be filler. A simple fix for the pet problem would be to just let hunters swap between ferocity and tenacity, much like how warriors have their two stances. 

- Fierce Stance: Increases damage dealt, reduces threat generation, Command Pet changes to Primal Rage.
- Loyal Stance: Reduces damage dealt, increases threat generation, Command Pet changes to Survival of the Fittest.
- Command Pet can only be used once per encounter. Goes on cooldown after exiting combat.
- Can change stances during combat. 
- Master's Call (Cunning ability) is now an optional talent. 

Bam, problem solved. Command your pet to be fierce, or call on it to defend you. Class fantasy status; fulfilled. Logic status; fulfilled. Good idea wasted in a comments section; fulfilled.
Pets are literally NPC warriors, if you think about it. Ferocity is Battle Stance, while Tenacity is Defensive Stance. Ferocity deals more damage while barely generating threat, much like warriors in Battle Stance make for awful tanks. Tenacity isn't as effective in a fight, but is absolutely capable of holding aggro much like warriors in Defensive Stance. Cunning being the third wheel is like how Blizzard felt Gladiator Stance was a mistake, yet we still have Cunning while Warriors lost the most fun mechanic they've have had in the game's history since the introduction of Titan's Grip. The stance mechanic would absolutely fit perfectly with pets since that's basically how we justify changing specs, and it can clearly be done with a simple switch since NPCs that have stances can do this.

That's all for my rant.
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Re: Wishlist for Hunter Pet System Changes in 10.0

Unread post by Muzzie »

Thank you @Wain & everyone else provided a voice in the community council forum! I am glad I can chime in here on Petopia as I do not have access to the WoW forums currently...

One point I think should be reinforced to address "PVP concerns" - I have seen it echoed already but why does pet appearance need to be indicative of its abilities?? No other class has to provide a visual cue for which essential PVP talents it has taken, until they are used. At the end of the day, the pet is an extension of the hunter kit and other class designs have no need to make talent choices so readable.

And please keep up the chatter about just how much of a setback having to dismiss pets is with M+ etc. If the issues that result in Hunters needing a quick dismissal cannot be fixed- we NEED to have our quick workarounds back. At one point, there was actually a talent for hunters that could make our pets teleport to their target periodically- BLINK STRIKES! That was actually a great quality of life to have for getting them unstuck throughout the course of combat. (Obviously, less helpful for getting past mobs, etc but neat that it existed) It would be great to have something like blink strikes as an active ability to get our pets on bosses after platform moves etc. Disable it in tried & true PVP content where the pathing is more or less sorted and call it a day.

And on pet cycling as a supposed design issue, why not have pet death trigger a cooldown on dismissal, and otherwise have it be instant? Or could we get a specific "resummon" ability that just teleports our current pet to our side again? Then Hunters could tell their pet to wait on the fly in M+ and use their "resummon" to teleport it safely to their location after more complex player movement (ie sneaking past mobs). I propose calling this "resummon" ability HEEL

Just some musings! I am looking for reasons to return to the game for Dragonflight and the vibe of that recent blue post on hunters is nottt it.

Specifically that comment about Animal Companion being broken for years but not a priority at all makes me mad...
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Re: Wishlist for Hunter Pet System Changes in 10.0

Unread post by Boven »

I was sorely tempted to reply, but when I found out about the post, I was in the middle of a raid. It would've taken me a long time to actually write a proper response and others had already post well-written replies.

I thought the post might read differently when I looked at it again today, since it had me feeling fairly huffy last night. Unfortunately, it seems to just be something somebody was told to write to basically blow off hunter concerns while making it look like they had been putting some thought into them. It's very disappointing.
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Re: Wishlist for Hunter Pet System Changes in 10.0

Unread post by DannyGreen »

worgpower wrote: Fri Jul 08, 2022 9:27 am mortal wounds turtle like what??
That bothered me to. changing specs doesn't mean changing pet abilities the "Tank" Turtle is a myth anyway since any ferocity pet with dodge or DR is better than a Tenacity turtle just by existing.

As for the hindering revive and dismissing of pets.
I don't hate it.
BUT!
I think Dismissing pets should be instant in a dungeon. I'm fine with it taking time in pvp, that's just what it is.
Or even better give us an ability like warlock's to instantly revive or dismiss our pet on a CD.
BAM PROBLEM SOLVED!

The comment about stances, also isn't a bad idea.
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Re: Wishlist for Hunter Pet System Changes in 10.0

Unread post by DannyGreen »

Sorry for the double post but reading through the thread on the na forum. I just wanted to add, Even amongst ferocity pets. Bm only really use 1 for "hard" solo content. Clefthooves.
That's it.

And the path finding issue can be fixed with a move like, Pounce or something that will make the pet heroic leap onto the target. Or the whole warlock instant summon thing.

As for Wain's comment about Exotics. I think an easier solution that giving all pets something fantastical and amazing. Is just giving all pets tames by a BM blood of the rhino a flat 10% DR and movement speed boost. And maybe if you're feeling extra spicy, increase the effectiveness of it's abilities by 25-50% (40%slow becomes 50-60% etc etc)

Side note.
Imagine a ranged pet.
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Re: Wishlist for Hunter Pet System Changes in 10.0

Unread post by Valnaaros »

Blizz posted the Hunter talent tree for Dragonflight. It overall doesn't look too bad, and a lot of things from Torghast such as buffs that reduce damage to pets will be talent options now.

Beast Masters will continue to have the Exotic Pet skill.

Blizz also said in the Blue Post for the Hunter talent tree that they are happy with where Hunters are at right now.
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Re: Wishlist for Hunter Pet System Changes in 10.0

Unread post by Ana »

It's not too bad. Arcane shot is useless for bm though..I never use it but tbh it could be worse... so overall It's ok. I had wish for more unique skills but eh i still will play a hunter as main

theres too few points to get all the things i want though...

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Re: Wishlist for Hunter Pet System Changes in 10.0

Unread post by worgpower »

Talent trees look good, I’m hoping choosing a route will be effective, for example I only choose talents that effect my pet and my melee damage without bombs or a build fully optimized for bombs, I hope it’s balanced enough to be creative with our choices, even the base hunter tree can help optimize our specs more which is amazing
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Re: Wishlist for Hunter Pet System Changes in 10.0

Unread post by Talihawk »

Looked like there were a lot of dire beast options and buffs...do ya'll think we might get beast cannon build back?
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Re: Wishlist for Hunter Pet System Changes in 10.0

Unread post by worgpower »

I was wondering if dire command would return to SV, but I guess not, hopefully a fully melee Survival hunter without bombs a could be viable
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Re: Wishlist for Hunter Pet System Changes in 10.0

Unread post by DannyGreen »

worgpower wrote: Sat Jul 09, 2022 2:36 am I was wondering if dire command would return to SV, but I guess not, hopefully a fully melee Survival hunter without bombs a could be viable
I expect bombless SV to work like legion minus all the dots.
I find it weird fury of the eagle is in the bomb row though.

Edit: Should we make a thread about Hunter changes in general. Since this topic is more the pet systems?

EDIT 2:
EDIT: Looking at it more, some of the places of skills just seem all over the place. Why would you have Tip of the spear, in the same row as Mongoose bite when they literally work against each other.

Tip of the spear, should swap spaces with Lunge

Why is tactical advantage on the opposite side where the wildfire bomb is.
The advantage of Aspace of the eagle is completely lost when it’s so far down the pet/bomb tree that you dont need to keep your big mongoose combos during a movement phase.

Replace Aspect of the eagle with Flanking strike

Replace energetic ally with tactical advantage.

As the Raw mongoose build would benefit much more from the bonus focus compared to the bomb spam build.
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Re: Wishlist for Hunter Pet System Changes in 10.0

Unread post by WerebearGuy »

The trees in general are a mess. A whole bunch of skills we already have are being moved from baseline to talents, which is completely stupid. As Danny said, the placement of many skills is also nonsensical, and the lack of available points means we're going to be LOSING abilities in the long run if we want all the good stuff. That's assuming the passives outweigh the actives (which most of them absolutely look like that), of course. Sure would be nice if we had a beta for people to test and give feedback on (that of course would be ignored) before the game releases this year.
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Re: Wishlist for Hunter Pet System Changes in 10.0

Unread post by DannyGreen »

Well alpha drops on the 17th allegedly.

I think the issue with everything being an active is buttons. To many to press y'know? When half the mongoose tree abilities are just going to be macroed into big burst windows.
Or you need to shave basic utility like interupts and stuns in order to get bigger numbers. To the point you might be getting some players specifically building RAW builds which have no slows or utility just pure damage numbers.
Which is not the way to play warcraft imo. You need at least a stun and interupt baseline to make 90% of dungeons manageable, building all the details into tree skills are going to have people missing out on fun class fantasy.

The range increase on sv hunters. 3 points to get 3 yards. That's also gonna cost you a 15% damage increase, or an active, or proc that would be much more beneficial. Especially since it's going down the Bomb line where, (imo) the best build for it would e putting those 3 range points into Tip of the spear which would at least give you some benefit to thread a focus spender into your KC.

EDIT:
Having fun with the builds, came up with what I can only describe as melee beast master.
If you want to take advantage of KC and bombs, you need to go hard into the left most tree, but if you take latent poison injector along with tip, then you can comfortably Dot up targets and let it just slowly rack up between cleave/butchery spam till you get three kc ticks then BANG! BIG DICK RAPTOR STRIKE!

So your main focus spender then becomes serpent sting and the tab key. Also any kill shots that proc.
STRANGE WAY TO BUILD But it feels like it would do some serious damage. This is obviously before we see numbers. As it stand it's a altered version of our current SV tier set. Without the KC reset bonus damage. Which becomes KC reset off Killshots, and more bombs from butchery/cleave.
NOW THE QUESTION IS!
Does butchery come with 3 uses, with no focus?
Or is cleave no CD with focus.
We would need to know this before we can really, go harder into the balance and how it works.

The other build was Mini lusts. Again why Tip is right before mongoose confuses me, but fortunately you can go around it which gives harpoon a lil tick of damage i guess.
You would go hard into mongoose, weaving trap macros to pretty much have a 50% uptime on a personal bloodlust. ignoring serpent sting entirely. This is if they trigger from all traps not just freezing which would be disappointing but not surprising

With both of these I still haven't really think of any other ways to build it. You go left, or you go right.


EDITEDIT:
It feels like even if you were BM you wouldn't wana take tough skin or improved mend pet. With the amount of traps and movement you get 3 seconds to rez, or taking misdirect mirror seems to just. Be better than wasting points into something that probably isn't going to do much of a difference. If your pet dies in 10 hits, making it 11 isn't gonna save you compared to being able to sprint 40 yards before you see him drop.
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Re: Wishlist for Hunter Pet System Changes in 10.0

Unread post by Maizou »

DannyGreen wrote: Sat Jul 09, 2022 10:56 am
worgpower wrote: Sat Jul 09, 2022 2:36 am I was wondering if dire command would return to SV, but I guess not, hopefully a fully melee Survival hunter without bombs a could be viable
I expect bombless SV to work like legion minus all the dots.
All I remember about Legion Survival is Mongoose Stacks, having to target Explosive Trap, Caltrops, etc. and it being such a pain. Lol.
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Re: Wishlist for Hunter Pet System Changes in 10.0

Unread post by worgpower »

At least alpha predator and killer instinct will be on the base spec, Imagine a BM hunter with two stacks of kill command, they would slay, and if a sv chooses killer instinct, it can be a extra execute when kill shot is unsuccessful in some cases
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