Neutering of BM spec? (removal of families, etc)

[CrankyClaw]

I would genuinely quit over this, to the point I'd force a chargeback to get my money back for Dragonflight over it, even if it bans my account.

But again we're back to "I want everything in every spec".

So what's the point of Beastmaster then? Why does it exist, and what makes it special?

As you've gotten into fights on the main forums about SV getting exotic pets, etc, what's your suggesting for making BM a viable class in progression content?

Again, the ideal solution would be to give every pet an exotic ability, or multiple, that would only be available to BM, but there's no way that idea gets implemented, too much development time, and it probably doesn't fit their vision.

But gutting BM for the sake of "I don't want to play icky BM but I NEED that Rhino" isn't helping.

To be very clear... I don't care at all about what pets someone else tames.. there's so damn many now that nothing is special anymore. What I DO care about is that BM is a compelling spec in both features and performance in progression content. I know most here don't care about that, but I do.

[DannyGreen]

My guy, you answered your own question twice now. Saying that they won't take development time and fitting there vision. Doesn't solve any problem.
We can easily give solutions and fixes, like custom pet trees, more viable builds etc. But if the answer is Too much development time then why bother even arguin, when we can talk about cool new pet skins or rares.
BM tree is pets, your pets do all the damage, your pets are your special abilities. Beast cleave, extra beasts, abilities that summon more beasts, Big red pet burst windows. That's what BM has been for almost a 6 years now, before that it was 1 pet, same thing.
It's mainly just. Having your pet do most of the work Then dumping on the big red pet. There are pathing issues, pet AI ways to cheese the pets in pvp etc etc, that's outside that problem and comes down to them just being npc animals.

You could have BM be the most op spec in the game but if the pet pathing is trash on one fight. it's not gonna be the spec used in progression.
Or you could have BM have a good tier set which gives them 100 pets and instant teleport abilities. It all comes down to RAW NUMBERS
There's no way to even say what level of viability BM has in progression content in DF because we don't have the numbers or trinkets or fight mechanics.
Bm got the short end of the stick for this patch, your tier set was rubbish compared to the others. To be an asshole, tough shit.

But hey since that's all too much development time, and it probably doesn't fit their vision.
Just boost BM damage by 5000% call it a day.
This isn't the BM forum. It's a Pet collection forum.

[bepples]

On one hand, BM's proficiency/viability is not dependent on exotic pets. All exotic pet families have 1 additional passive which is utility only. You can run a non-exotic pet and do just fine. In fact the optimal BM Hunter setup in PvP right now is a Raptor, non-exotic, because it's Cunning with a healing debuff.

On the other hand, I do agree with the argument that the current exotic pet setup should remain. Having special pet families unique to BM is part of the spec's unique skills and part of what makes the spec special. While it's not crucial to that, it's a big part of it. I also really don't like how it seems to be part of a broader trend of SV players being accustomed to the spec being handed BM's unique stuff. They've been doing this since it went melee with Kill Command, Bestial Wrath (renamed to Coordinated Assault, of course), and Spirit Bond (which BM doesn't have access to at all despite it originally being BM exclusive) and it proves the whole "we made SV melee to make it unique!" line to be the lie it always was.

Finally they should let us respec all pets. There is NO reason to have it a fixed setting for every family. The current pet system gets a lot of flak but it's arguably the best we've ever had in terms of both making the family choice impactful while allowing the player to run whatever they want. The one thing significantly wrong with it is specs being fixed per family. Let us change it again and it's golden.

[CrankyClaw]

This isn't the BM forum. It's a Pet collection forum.

Yes, there's a lot of BM hate here, and that's why there's such the desire to take away exotics from BM.

[CrankyClaw]

Finally they should let us respec all pets. There is NO reason to have it a fixed setting for every family. The current pet system gets a lot of flak but it's arguably the best we've ever had in terms of both making the family choice impactful while allowing the player to run whatever they want. The one thing significantly wrong with it is specs being fixed per family. Let us change it again and it's golden.

I think the developer head-lore around this is that some pets don't make sense as "tanks", but the reality is that that's how we use them.

A solution for that might be to bake ferocity skills into both Cunning and Tenacity, and remove Ferocity, so you either have a tanking pet, or a cunning pet, and match those choices better across the families.

Or...

Get rid of pet specs completely, and have the pet abilities based on the hunter's spec. BM would get the tankier abilities, MM would get the snipy assistant pets, and SV would get a hybrid of those two.

More I think about it, I really like this idea.. everyone can tame anything but the pet's abilities are tied to the hunter's abilities, and perhaps some things in the hunter's talent tree.

[DannyGreen]

Yes, there's a lot of BM hate here, and that's why there's such the desire to take away exotics from BM.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
I'm pretty sure most people here are BM

Get rid of pet specs completely, and have the pet abilities based on the hunter's spec. BM would get the tankier abilities, MM would get the snipy assistant pets, and SV would get a hybrid of those two.

But why though, that's a terrible idea. Since MM doesn't even use pets most of the time. You now got a useless tank pet for all bm and SV get the best pets for pvp.
You're wasting a lust and leech buff on a spec that's just gona use Lust then a release macro so it doesn't blow a 3 second cast.

Dont bake all the specs into stupid things. Either give them their own tree, or changeable specs. Tanky pets would keep their tanky abilities Shellshield/carapace etc etc.
Besides. Tank pets atm are squishier than Ferocity pets. Passive leech, is better than 10% hp

[WerebearGuy]

Honestly, BM needs an overhaul like Survival. Originally, Survival was the not-Marksman spec; it did what Marksman did, but not as good. Now, despite having some questionable design choices and a few very questionable talent issues, it's got its own unique identity. Sadly, this unique identity puts BM in a place where it's no longer that unique. Current Survival is a melee spec that needs a pet, while current Marksmanship is a ranged spec without pet resources. What is BM? A ranged spec that relies on its pets. I'm sure that everyone can see the problem here, and the far more prevalent problem regarding a Beast "Master" spec; the mastery over beasts is completely non-existent.

For starters, what does BM have in regards to pets? We have Kill Command, a spell that tells your pet "just hit it harder". We have Bestial Wrath, which is like a personal bloodlust that affects your pet too. Then we have...nothing else. One can argue that Barbed Shot is a beast-related ability since it affects the beasts' attack speed, but that's really all it does. You have two pets, one of which is essentially useless and also causes you do deal less damage with other minions due to a bug that Blizzard clearly refuses to fix despite knowing full well that it needs to be fixed asap. There's also some talents that are not so good which provide extra beasts. You can have Dire Beast which summons a random beast for a tiny bit instead of Animal Companion, Spitting Cobra which sounds awesome on paper but falls on its face worse than a skater who fell asleep, A Murder of Crows which calls a flock of crows to harass a single target, Stampede which calls out a bunch of beasts in a straight line, Dire Beast: Basilisk which is a slow-moving basilisk that hits like a freight train, Dire Beast: Hawk which calls a hawk to control an area for a short time, and finally Wild Kingdom which calls in a random cunning pet for a short time and dismisses your current pet to heal them for that duration. These are all talent choices, and absolutely embody the concept of a hunter with a mastery over beasts. The problem? These are boring as all hell, and you can't even use all of them without being completely useless outside of goofing around. That should not be the case at all.

Granted, I'm not going to claim to be a master of class design, so I won't try to make the spec perfect. I'm not a coder, so I don't have the right to demand "Make this work the way I want it, no exceptions" like many suggestions do online. What I will do is say that the identity of Beast Mastery is shallow. It's more shallow than old Survival, on par with Combat Rogue (before it became Outlaw), and it just lacks oomph. Survival, while given a very rocky start, absolutely benefits from its new identity. So much so that the parts it took from Beast Mastery make it seem like Beast Mastery copied Survival. What Beast Mastery needs is a new kit based around calling on beasts, both loyal and feral, to swarm the field and make it so that the enemy has no choice but to deal with your menagerie before they have the right to step foot in your proximity. BM needs to be able to pick its weapon and fight accordingly, rather than being limited to ranged. It does not need to borrow from Survival's melee movepool, but it definitely needs a brutal attack combo that lets the hunter be feral in close range while being calm and collected at range. Beast Mastery should absolutely have the means to call on the wild, and use whatever it pleases. Animal Companion, one of my favorite talent picks, needs to let us control both of those pets. A second pet bar, while being more micromanagement, would make it feel so much better. Pets having abilities you can pick and choose to place on their pet bar for them to cycle through would be an amazing addition. Using Eyes of the Beast to use multiple pet abilities that aren't on your pet's bar normally would add such a sense of immersion and unity with your pets. A ranged tactics-based build with a bunch of summoned beasts, or a melee "fight as one" build where you focus on using your two closest companions; two identities, one spec.

Just my two cents. Also, I'm all for the removal of the "exotic" classification because it genuinely doesn't have a purpose anymore, but the class needs a new identity that fits the theme of a beast master more so than a small change like that. It does need that small change, but still.

[DannyGreen]

Great post Were. I agree completely. BM as it stands while they can use extra pets doesn't really feel like much of anything. I honestly dislike Barbed shot as a main move for the class. I'd much rather Kill command has the effect of the bleed. Allowing pets to frenzy. And Hunter's thing becomes buffing the pets. Replace Barbed shot with Beast call. (summons an extra beast) And every time you use it, it summons an extra one or refreshes the duration of the active secondary pets.
Spicing BM up to be a sort of buffing pet class could actually be really interesting if you give it raid utility. Imagine if they have a passive effect that can boost all Minions by 5% just by being in the raid.
Beastlords frenzy. Drives all active minions damage and attack speed by 20% Party minions in range receive 50% of this bonus for it's duration.
Bring pvp skills into pve, basalisk is so fun. And why not a temp mind control but for beasts.

The big thing is fixing that extra pet weakening effect. That's huge.
Personally, I'd drop Kill command for SV. Giving them the same skill feels a bit bad when they don't even do the same thing. I'd much rather they rename it to ... I dunno... Feral su- wait i think feral surge is already a thing. Fuck it, Beast strike.

As for BM being a bit of both. It would be doable. I personally think BM should stay ranged, but with Melee options, but this comes down to us getting the secondary weapon slot for ranged etc. Unless you want to take the whole aspect of the hawk idea, call it aspect of the monkey. But that doesn't adress the thought you had before of copying things.
Just replace the word, shot with strike and it's fine. People get close enough CLUB EM WITH YOUR GUN! kek
Give SV the defensives of an actual melee though holy shit. SV Should be allowed to use skills through turtle like pali bubble.

[Ana]

I personally hate if bm went melee..
I play hunter to be a ranged dps who can tame beast.
Ino getting rid of specs and just specialize in classes be great
Ranger could be what mm is now. A ranged dps with no pets. A ranger in Everquest also share some druid spells so not sure if this should apply to wow too
Beastmaster should keep it's name and be focused on ranged dps who can tame beasts
Trapper should be survival. Focus on awesome traps with the posibility for pet tames?

[CrankyClaw]

Besides. Tank pets atm are squishier than Ferocity pets. Passive leech, is better than 10% hp

That's a design and balance problem that they should fix.

[CrankyClaw]

Great post Were. I agree completely. BM as it stands while they can use extra pets doesn't really feel like much of anything. I honestly dislike Barbed shot as a main move for the class. I'd much rather Kill command has the effect of the bleed. Allowing pets to frenzy. And Hunter's thing becomes ....

Just replace the word, shot with strike and it's fine. People get close enough CLUB EM WITH YOUR GUN! kek
Give SV the defensives of an actual melee though holy shit. SV Should be allowed to use skills through turtle like pali bubble.

Barbed shot is a funky filler because they got away from stings... But they've proactively nerfed so many things that BM doesn't really have anything that fits the spec beside Bestial Wrath. The rest is just buttons. Stampede is terrible, Chimera and Crows both are bad, so... a BM hunter in DF is going to be either focused on Dire Beast, or on Barbed/Cobra.

But at this point they're too far along to redesign the spec now. I remember what happened to SV after the first raid of WoD. I don't want that for BM.

[CrankyClaw]

I personally hate if bm went melee..
I play hunter to be a ranged dps who can tame beast.
Ino getting rid of specs and just specialize in classes be great
Ranger could be what mm is now. A ranged dps with no pets. A ranger in Everquest also share some druid spells so not sure if this should apply to wow too
Beastmaster should keep it's name and be focused on ranged dps who can tame beasts
Trapper should be survival. Focus on awesome traps with the posibility for pet tames?

Agreed. I have no idea why they are giving BM Wailing Arrow. that should be MM only.

[Wain]

What I've been pushing for has never been just about the removal of exotic restrictions - it was for exotics to be removed as a category BUT for BM hunters to get extra abilities out of ALL pet families. The exotic classification is a bit random and forced these days (though it was a great idea at the time when it was created). I think it's time to leave it behind and make BM about getting more out of all pets, just like the beast masters we are!

[Tahchi]

Get rid of pet specs completely, and have the pet abilities based on the hunter's spec. BM would get the tankier abilities, MM would get the snipy assistant pets, and SV would get a hybrid of those two.

More I think about it, I really like this idea.. everyone can tame anything but the pet's abilities are tied to the hunter's abilities, and perhaps some things in the hunter's talent tree.

Oh no, I really hate that idea. I'd hate to be stuck with only tank spec pets as BM. Nope. Do not want that.

I honestly dislike Barbed shot as a main move for the class. I'd much rather Kill command has the effect of the bleed. Allowing pets to frenzy. And Hunter's thing becomes buffing the pets. Replace Barbed shot with Beast call. (summons an extra beast) And every time you use it, it summons an extra one or refreshes the duration of the active secondary pets.

Agreed 100%

[CrankyClaw]

What I've been pushing for has never been just about the removal of exotic restrictions - it was for exotics to be removed as a category BUT for BM hunters to get extra abilities out of ALL pet families. The exotic classification is a bit random and forced these days (though it was a great idea at the time when it was created). I think it's time to leave it behind and make BM about getting more out of all pets, just like the beast masters we are!

I agree in principle, but my fear is they'll do a really bad job of it, and/or don't have the resources to do it correctly. To do it, you would need some sort of rudimentary pet talent system, otherwise we still wind up with the same problem that Clefthoof is the correct choice 90% of the time.

It's not about the actual tames for me.. there are so many pets and so few true rares these days that it just doesn't matter anymore. Gone are the days that people are in awe of Krush.

Let us respec pets, and let us pick the 2 or 3 special abilities that the "Beastmaster" pet can use, or at least spread them out to several families.

[CrankyClaw]

Oh no, I really hate that idea. I'd hate to be stuck with only tank spec pets as BM. Nope. Do not want that.

What I was envisioning is that only BM would get tank pet abilities, but your pet would have other capabilities as well.

It's back to the issue of what makes BM different? If we remove the exotic distinction.. why... would you play BM? What's different about it?

[Acherontia]

I miss the days when pets had very unique abilities but could be respecced. I'm okay with the current system. I like pets having their own identities and think homogenizing them for the sake of gameplay is a bad choice; there's something rewarding in trying out different pets and finding the best ones for various situations, weighing their pros & cons, etc. They feel like they're losing more and more individual personality each expansion, to me. If I'm understanding right, and all pet abilities are removed? Or is it exotic-only?

I get that sometimes there's a cool pet you like that doesn't fit the role you usually play, but I'm not sure making them all identical is the way to go. Especially if only BM sees the difference. I was BM up until they decided for whatever bizarre reason that Survival was the new "beast master," including with Rexxar (wtf, seriously), so now I swap between specs and I feel like restricting abilities to BM-only would be even -more- restrictive, rather than less, requiring not a certain pet but a certain -spec- which limits gameplay far more.

I really hope this is reverted.

[bepples]

Honestly, BM needs an overhaul like Survival.

I don't see how this is the way to go even after reading your post. BM's design and foundation are fine. The main problems are surface-level mechanical and tuning issues such as every active talent option being tuned to be garbage. Otherwise it actually plays pretty well, it has a good core gameplay loop, its fantasy is solid. I'd say it's the Hunter spec in the least need of a rework; especially since when looking at the DF talent trees the BM one is the best by far.

Originally, Survival was the not-Marksman spec; it did what Marksman did, but not as good. Now, despite having some questionable design choices and a few very questionable talent issues, it's got its own unique identity.

This is an extremely inaccurate and dare I say revisionist way of portraying ranged SV.

Saying it did what Marksman did but not as good is like saying Arms does what Fury does but not as good. They're different approahces to a baseline class archetype. For Hunters, MM focused on long ranged sharpshooting and hardcasted burst while SV focused on utilitarianism and resourcefulness with exotic munitions, with a more sustained damage profile. There were situations better fitting to either one so they felt like meaningful and valuable spec choices while providing good representation of ranged weapon archetypes.

I don't think SV is just a handful of superficial bad choices right now. The whole model of the spec is flawed; primarily because it has no coherent structure or direction. You're throwing grenades and shooting with a sidearm crossbow while also using a bunch of generic physical melee attacks and pet stuff lifted from BM. It feels like they had a few general ideas of what to go with for a melee Hunter and didn't know which one to pick so they just picked all of them.

Sadly, this unique identity puts BM in a place where it's no longer that unique. Current Survival is a melee spec that needs a pet, while current Marksmanship is a ranged spec without pet resources. What is BM? A ranged spec that relies on its pets. I'm sure that everyone can see the problem here, and the far more prevalent problem regarding a Beast "Master" spec; the mastery over beasts is completely non-existent.

How does this make sense? SV apparently didn't have a unique identity before, it got a bunch of BM stuff and is now unique, but that makes BM not unique? No... that makes Survival not unique because BM had that stuff first.

Most of what SV does with a pet is just lifted straight from BM. Kill Command is just the BM ability, but retuned as a generator instead of a spender. Coordinated Assault is a renamed and tweaked Bestial Wrath. Spirit Bond was originally an iconic part of BM before being made SV's exclusive mastery for some reason. Apart from that the rest of SV is largely not concerned with the pet (Wildfire Bomb says hello), while BM also has the Frenzy interaction, Beast Cleave, Exotic Pets, and a set of talents full of pet buffs and active abilities themed around pets. BM is still the pet spec of the Hunter class and absolutely represents the concept of beast mastery well.

You started this post off by saying SV used to be "Marksmanship but not as good". Whether or not that's true (it's not) it seems now the truth is SV is currently BM but not as good.

For starters, what does BM have in regards to pets?

You say this then list a whole bunch of things BM has to do with pets while trying to minimise their impact one by one. This has the unintended side-effect of demonstrating that BM actually has quite a lot of interaction with their pets.

It's more shallow than old Survival

Both current BM and old Survival have very solid identities. I won't be gaslit to believe otherwise. SV was my main spec back then and I play BM a lot now and, since this isn't the official forums, I'll happly admit I play private servers for WotLK and MoP so I see directly and concurrently what the specs looked like back then.

Survival, while given a very rocky start, absolutely benefits from its new identity. So much so that the parts it took from Beast Mastery make it seem like Beast Mastery copied Survival. What Beast Mastery needs is a new kit based around calling on beasts, both loyal and feral, to swarm the field and make it so that the enemy has no choice but to deal with your menagerie before they have the right to step foot in your proximity.

It's not just a rocky start. It's entire existence as a melee spec has been rocky, in contrast to years of success, stability, and broad enjoyment before that.

I don't know how you figure SV copying BM makes it look like the other way around. Again BM still has all the pet stuff. The only thing SV took that BM no longer has is Spirit Bond, which should absolutely be given back to BM. I really, really detest this PR push lately of driving a wedge in the concept of summoning lots of pets v.s. bonding with one pet. BM has historically been the latter, in fact, with the "zoo" approach being a Legion product and mostly talented rather than baseline. Even the 2nd pet is talented. They should both be variations within BM and I don't see what the point of making SV melee is if it's just going to leech off BM all the time.

On that note, I also detest how we apparently need to tread on eggshells around melee SV. SV copies BM so BM is the one that needs to change? Give me a break! Going back to the ranged SV comparison; people make a stink about it apparently copying MM but as someone who played both specs often I never felt like MM was getting copied/leeched from to provide ranged SV with a toolkit. So it strikes me as extremely hypocritical and makes me cynical and suspicious of the whole supposed "uniqueness" goal.

BM needs to be able to pick its weapon and fight accordingly, rather than being limited to ranged.

"Limited to range" is an oxymoron. BM has no range restriction like SV (aside from pets having to reach the boss, of course) or movement restriction like MM. It's unlimited. If it had a dependence on melee in any way it would be limited.

If melee SV proved anything it's that most Hunters really don't want to have anything to do with melee so making BM even partially melee would be a huge mistake. I could understand talented melee options within BM but that would of course remove any point to melee SV existing.

Animal Companion, one of my favorite talent picks, needs to let us control both of those pets. A second pet bar, while being more micromanagement, would make it feel so much better. Pets having abilities you can pick and choose to place on their pet bar for them to cycle through would be an amazing addition. Using Eyes of the Beast to use multiple pet abilities that aren't on your pet's bar normally would add such a sense of immersion and unity with your pets. A ranged tactics-based build with a bunch of summoned beasts, or a melee "fight as one" build where you focus on using your two closest companions; two identities, one spec.

Requiring such micromanagement of the pets would be extremely toxic. This isn't a game that fundamentally handles controlling multiple units well like an RTS. This would just push people away from BM. It's better to have the sort of toolkit it has now where it has involvement with the ranged weapon while also interaction and commanding of the pet.

For example, the Hunter uses Multi Shot, something that was once baseline to all Hunter specs, and the pet starts cleaving. I think that's pretty cool. It reinforces that BM is at heart a Hunter just like MM so it shares some things but modifies them in key ways, just like MM has Trick Shots. In the past SV was also in on that design as it used Multi-Shot to spread Serpent Sting to every target. That's the genius behind the Cata/MoP/WoD Hunter designs: there was more shared between the specs but each spec modified and added stuff in key ways to develop a unique but recognisable Hunter identity.

Just my two cents. Also, I'm all for the removal of the "exotic" classification because it genuinely doesn't have a purpose anymore, but the class needs a new identity that fits the theme of a beast master more so than a small change like that. It does need that small change, but still.

Well you did complain about BM apparently not being enough of a beast master... being able to tame exotic pets that other Hunters can't is exactly the sort of thing that enhances the BM fantasy. So I don't see how this reconciles with the rest of the post.

[bepples]

Replace Barbed shot with Beast call. (summons an extra beast) And every time you use it, it summons an extra one or refreshes the duration of the active secondary pets.

This is kind of what BM was in Legion. I see that's probably what you're basing it on but as a reminder to readers in Legion we had a baseline Dire Beast which was just like what Barbed Shot is now but without the Frenzy mechanic and it would summon an extra pet like the current talent. The Frenzy mechanic came from the talent Dire Frenzy which replaced Dire Beast. What happened was in BFA alpha they made Dire Frenzy baseline and turned Dire Beast into what it is now, then later in the testing phase for BFA they replaced Dire Frenzy with Barbed Shot which is mechanically the same except it's a shot from the gun.

The reasoning for all this changing was probably because a) many BM Hunters didn't like feeling forced into this sort of "zoo" build approach where you controlled legions of pet slaves rather than having a close bond with one pet and b) they got a lot of feedback about BM not really using the ranged weapon all that much. So I think the change to Barbed Shot makes a lot of sense. It's unique, it involves the ranged weapon a little more, it adds much needed mechanical engagement to an otherwise very simplistic spec, and it also makes a lot of thematic sense; you make the target bleed and it causes your pet to frenzy.

Lately there's a lot of talk about SV being all about pet companionship while BM is just bossing pets around. I don't like that because it feels like it's rewriting what the class is and what BM has been historically. Up until Legion it was BM that was all about the close bond with one pet. So that's most of WoW's lifespan including the most popular and iconic eras. There are a lot of BM Hunters who are attached to that original archetype of the class: the ranged weapon user with a loyal pet companion. Depriving BM of the "pet companionship" angle would ruin that archetype. I'd much rather BM have talent options for focusing on one pet or commanding multiple, and that actually kind of looks like what's going on with the DF talent tree.

[CrankyClaw]

Replace Barbed shot with Beast call. (summons an extra beast) And every time you use it, it summons an extra one or refreshes the duration of the active secondary pets.

This is kind of what BM was in Legion....

I'd much rather BM have talent options for focusing on one pet or commanding multiple, and that actually kind of looks like what's going on with the DF talent tree.

Well, looking the current tree, you are still either going to pick a Barbed Shot build that focuses on boosting your single pet mostly, or you are going to pick a Dire Beast build to summon those as often as possible.

So.. replacing Barbed with Call Beast doesn't work, because Dire Beast is already there, and well represented.

The spec is in danger of having too many CDs, or at least ones that don't really go together, so it's not a bad tree, but there's potential for really bad choices.

I personally don't like Dire Beast in raids, so I'll probably go the Barbed Shot build, but need to see how this all sims.

The spec still lacks the buildup that MM has, but the SV spec is currently very confusing, so not sure how they'll all wash out.