How the forum is doing (non rant)

Unread post by **Adam-Savage** » Sat Mar 12, 2011 1:04 am

Per the suggestion Mania made is a thread to talk about how the forum is doing. Not sure how well this will do but it's worth a shot!

Mania can put in some guidelines as I don't know what to put and I'm I don't have any authority to so anyway.

Unread post by **cowmuflage** » Sat Mar 12, 2011 1:51 am

Well ever since the bullpoop that happend in the what grinds my gears thread I don't feel like I can trust the mods all that much. I mean I feel like any post I make could be taken down with out a single reason posted. More so If its a mature post in a thread that says warning mature content in the title. I feel like it will get taken down becouse of its "mature" content thats what heppen last time.

Unread post by **Mania** » Sat Mar 12, 2011 1:55 am

So it sounds like maybe it's not clear enough what content is appropriate for a given thread, and what a mature label might mean. Am I understanding that right?

Unread post by **cowmuflage** » Sat Mar 12, 2011 1:57 am

You hit it right on the nail.

Unread post by **Teigan** » Sat Mar 12, 2011 2:21 am

You know, the mods have a hard job...dealing with lots of people's emotions, egos and opinions and trying to keep the petopia forums the kind of community that I and others cherish. So, talking about "not trusting mods" uh, NO! Sometimes toes get stepped on in the interest of keeping things going in the right direction. Mods are only human and they have to do a super-human job.

Pokefarm · Unread post by **Lisaara** » Sat Mar 12, 2011 2:23 am

Mania wrote:So it sounds like maybe it's not clear enough what content is appropriate for a given thread, and what a mature label might mean. Am I understanding that right?

^ This. Pretty much. [...] gonna tell us "Oh yeah this is okay" then turn around and go "Oh no, it's not okay. We never said it was!" [...] made a lot of us very uneasy and that last kerfluffle made that clear.[...]

Sat Mar 12, 2011 2:33 am

Mania wrote:So it sounds like maybe it's not clear enough what content is appropriate for a given thread, and what a mature label might mean. Am I understanding that right?

Exactly. There was a post made by Vephriel that basically said we could talk about whatever, that the thread was listed as being mature for a reason, and that in no way would be be censored.

I wouldn't worry about it Cowmu. You put disclaimers before your posts, and this thread is sort of an uncensored place to vent anyways.

The mature tag just lets others know that there may be posts within that deal with mature themes or could be potentially agitating.

Nothing within the thread has been altered, and I certainly do not see how the Count video has any relation to this whatsoever. There is no censoring going on, rather the opposite...it's free reign in here to post rants or vents that may otherwise be inappropriate on a public forum. I honestly fail to see a reason to make a big deal over a simple disclaimer.

The above being her actual quotes.

[...] Personally, what it looks like is that just because the mod didn't like the post, that meant they were inappropriate and had to be taken away. I apologize if that's not the case, but that's a little what it appeared like.

[...]

It would be nice to see why our posts get edited or deleted a la MMO-C style where mod edits are posted in the post they're editing.

I understand that a rant thread wasn't necessarily the place for the non-rant like discussion following Cow's female post, however, there were plenty of off topic posts already in the thread, and, as far as I know, the PMs don't allow for a conversation between multiple people. And as I stated before, it had disclaimers and did not go into any graphic detail.

It was disheartening to see what ended up happening there (Cow, I'm glad you got to see our posts before they were deleted because they helped you), and it was also disheartening that Veph didn't even follow her own posts and just went along with the whole thing.

Anyway, I'm not looking to make anyone mad or upset by posting this. I love Petopia, but that event was a little heart-breaking. I just wanted to offer my honest opinion. If it gets me in trouble, so be it I guess. I apologize if I upset anyone.
Also, as the forums grow, perhaps it's time to have new mods along with it. One person (in Kalli's case while you and Veph were under the weather) shouldn't have to handle this many people alone.

Unread post by **Mania** » Sat Mar 12, 2011 2:40 am

I tend to read right over sentences that say things about not trusting the mods since I am the person who gives the mods direction, not to mention a moderator in my own right. And if you don't trust me ... well, then you have bigger problems.

But what I am hoping to get out of this thread is more concrete examples of the underlying problems we've been running into.

That's why I edited your post, Jessibelle - not because what you said was "bad" but because it steers this thread in a direction that isn't going to help me right now. (And I do have the PMs you sent me as well, of course.)

Unread post by **cowmuflage** » Sat Mar 12, 2011 2:46 am

Well I just like not to get yelled at for posting mature things about my body problems in a place that says I can just becouse someone may not like it.
I put extra warnings infront of them like I allways do yet I still get yelled at for things like "not haveing enought warnings" like if you get past the first one I do then I think its your problem. I would be in a real pickle if I did not get the help I did from the two ladies who posted help.
I think more clear rules would help alot.

Allso my model sheets here anit porn! thats to those people who complan to me.

Sat Mar 12, 2011 2:48 am

I think you mean Cowmuflage's post--Jess' is still the same from what I can tell.

Bah, drawing a blank for a more concrete example of what's going on. But I do agree that maybe more clear rules in a thread being listed as 'mature' would help. Being told one thing (I provided the quotes permitting it above) and then having someone tell you no is kind of like a slap in the face.

Oh that's cool, you can leave little mod edits on our posts (scrolled up to see mine).

Unread post by **Mania** » Sat Mar 12, 2011 2:51 am

TygerDarkstorm wrote:The above being her actual quotes.

Thank you for the quotes, TygerDarkstorm. It looks to me as if I interpreted some things very differently than you did, which is always handy to know.

TygerDarkstorm wrote:It would be nice to see why our posts get edited or deleted a la MMO-C style where mod edits are posted in the post they're editing.

Can you give me an example of what kind of explanation you would be looking for? Are you thinking privately for your own posts, or publicly for everyone?

TygerDarkstorm wrote:[...]as far as I know, the PMs don't allow for a conversation between multiple people.

As an aside, you can send PMs to multiple recipients. The reply functionality is less than wonderful, so you have to check and make sure that everyone is included on the reply, but it does work.

TygerDarkstorm wrote:Also, as the forums grow, perhaps it's time to have new mods along with it. One person (in Kalli's case while you and Veph were under the weather) shouldn't have to handle this many people alone.

Hmm. Good point. How many moderators do you think we might need? (This is an honest question - I'm not sure how many moderators most forums have per population.)

And for everyone on this thread: I am editing heavily. I deleted a post from cowmuflage. I am trying hard to keep this thread as a useful (to me) non-rant, and so I am stripping out a lot of language that I find steers the thread in a personal or emotional direction.

Sat Mar 12, 2011 3:01 am

I learned something new, did not know you could send PMs to multiple people (chances are I didn't pay attention so I apologize about that).

As for the editing--MMO-C has when a mod edits a person's post, they usually leave a little note in the post (publicly) as to why it was edited, kind of like how my one post says it was edited by you for removing my steering. So I guess these forums do have a way for that to work which is cool; as a user of the forums, it's nice to know why your post got removed or edited.

To be honest, I'm not sure how many moderators we'd need here. We're still a fairly small community compared to MMO-C, but just as an example, each forum has about 2-3 mods per forum (sometimes more). Granted, we really don't need that here, and some of it is already covered by people like Azu. I'd say maybe 3ish more mods for here since you like to be pretty hands on. That would at least leave enough so that if any of you are MIA for whatever reason, there's not just one mod to take care of everything. I can understand that that would be a rather harrowing task in a growing population.

Also, I don't want to seem ungrateful at all. I love this community. I'd like to thank you for all your hard work, Mania, and for wanting to listen to your community so you get all sides of everything.

Unread post by **cowmuflage** » Sat Mar 12, 2011 3:11 am

Yes it is good Mania that you are listening to everyone. I know in some forums the owners just take sides.

Pokefarm · Unread post by **Lisaara** » Sat Mar 12, 2011 3:16 am

Sorry, wasn't trying to rant but you already got the gist from me before. I agree with a lot of points cow and tyger made. 3 - 5 more mods should be helpful. I'm grateful you are listening to the members when they say something needs to be fixed. Not many do that.

Unread post by **Mania** » Sat Mar 12, 2011 3:34 am

I'm not sure I'm listening so much as trying to figure things out, but I'm glad you like it.

We can definitely do something about making it more obvious what's considered appropriate where on the forums - the mods were bugging me about that before but I was hoping I could put it off. *cough* And making edits more clear as well, definitely. I can see how adding more moderators might be useful ... that one's going to take a little bit of thought. I don't think it's necessarily a good idea to post it publicly, but if you had thoughts about people who might be good mods I would live to hear about it in PMs.

I do want to be clear, though - Veph and Kalliope and Golden have done a great job doing what I've asked them to. Whatever we're missing here - the things you've brought up so far - and my failings and not theirs. I know there have been clashes and misunderstandings, and I'm not trying to be glib about it, but seriously, these are my problems. It's my job to be on top of things, and what they do as moderators comes from me. (Me, a control freak? No!)

Unread post by **Saturo** » Sat Mar 12, 2011 5:31 am

I don't think the problem is so much with distrusting all the mods as it is with distrusting certain mods. For example, what was going on in the Grinded Gears thread looked a lot like rogue edits and deletions from one single mod, due to Veph's earlier post. If there was a discussion about what was allowed in the mod-parts, it wasn't shown, which made it seem a lot like Kalli went ''Eww! I have to delete that before someone gets offended maybe!''. The reasoning for the censoring that was shown to us was shaky at best, dare I say nonexistant.

3-5 more mods, modnotes and clearer information about what is allowed would be nice, yes.

Unread post by **SgtMakkie** » Sat Mar 12, 2011 5:57 am

This seems like the perfect place to put this, so I hope it comes over the right way.

WoW - Petopia, by it's name alone you see that this forum has two basic references, WOW and Pets, namely hunter pets. So with this goal in mind the forum has been setup to cater for this and a wonderful job it does too. A real credit to Mania and the mods. This is a mature and friendly place to come for your WoW / Pet / community stuff that you might not find elsewhere.

However at no point do I see anything saying this forum has an age limitation, a check to control that people are a minimum age or any proviso to say the content on this forum is unsuitable for specific age groups. With this in mind, each and every one of us has a responsibility for what we post and how people are treated when they come to the Petopia Forums. Yes there are likely to be people reading this site that are younger than 18!

Just from my point of view alone, I would be deeply saddened if 1 wrong (unsuitable for under 18) post or picture was to been seen by an adult/guardian and for them to take steps towards reporting this site and eventually having it shut down. Which could lead to big problems for the mods/admins. While this might seem extreme, anything that would bring discredit to the forums is something all of us should strive to avoid and control. Not just the mods!

As Mania has already said if you're not clear, don't post. If you'd be happy looking over your kids shoulder and seeing the content you're about to post, stop and think again. That wouldn't make it right! Your views and values should not be the base line for others!

While clear mod notes would be good to understand why something was edited or removed. Basically the whole idea of Not Safe for Work of any nature is questionable on a site where you'd like to encourage all age groups to enjoy the content provided.

thanks all
Makkie

magistream · Unread post by **Nubhorns** » Sat Mar 12, 2011 6:37 am

SgtMakkie wrote:As Mania has already said if you're not clear, don't post. If you'd be happy looking over your kids shoulder and seeing the content you're about to post, stop and think again. That wouldn't make it right! Your views and values should not be the base line for others!

While clear mod notes would be good to understand why something was edited or removed. Basically the whole idea of Not Safe for Work of any nature is questionable on a site where you'd like to encourage all age groups to enjoy the content provided.

I agree with this completely. I am ten kinds of jaded by the Interwebs and not much bothers me anymore, but that doesn't mean everyone else is. There are forums dedicated specifically for talking about all sorts of things among like-minded people, no matter how odd or embarrassing - I just don't really think Petopia is one of them. It's a wonderful community and most(if not all) members have shown some degree of maturity, but it's really not an appropriate sort of thing on a WoW Hunter based forum, yeah?

That isn't to say all off-topic content should be wiped or hidden or frowned upon, but I think the entire fuss over the GMG thread could have been avoided by taking [it] to PMs. While I wasn't bothered in the least, there's always the chance that someone else will be. And warnings are like giant neon 'click me' signs to anyone. They've always been. :P

[...] it's a little disconcerting that one ninja edit, whether it was appropriate or otherwise, threw everyone into such a paranoid frenzy. It's the Internet, after all, a handful of your rights can be suitably manipulated via the ToS - not to say they are, but they can be. Tags like 'Mature' and 'NSFW' are not free reign to talk about whatever you want. Lord knows every forum would be full of all kinds of scum if that were the case. It is 'Mature' or 'NSFW' within the boundaries of what the mods accept. If they change their minds, that's that. They're mods. They're people.

On a different note, I'd love an 'explanation box' or just a blip from the editing mod should something be changed or deleted - I don't especially like the MMO-C community, but they got that right at least.

ITT: Nubhorns sounds like a prude; also explanations for edits would be fab.

Unread post by **Golden** » Sat Mar 12, 2011 6:56 am

Saturo wrote:I don't think the problem is so much with distrusting all the mods as it is with distrusting certain mods.

The thing is, everyone does mistakes. What happened in said thread was probably just that [...]. That, however, should NOT mean that her ability to work as a mod is completely gone. Maybe we should just learn to forgive and forget those past mistakes. Kalliope has been an excellent mod, and I'm sure she will continue to be just that in the future also.

No one's asking anyone to like someone. All we ask is some respect for our authority, regardless of your personal opinions on the individual mod. It's worth remembering that we're here to help the community and get nothing in return - it's 100% volunteer work, and we're all only human.

That is not to say that us mods don't have much to learn, too. ;) A short message from the mod explaining how and why said post was edited is an excellent way of keeping people informed, and I've personally been trying to do that whenever possible. Clear guidelines should also be made about what to post and what not. A no-brainer that's been neglected far too long.

I also have a suggestion to make: if you have any images to show that might be disturbing to some people, you may want to put a link to it in your post, instead of straight out embedding it in your post. That way the viewers will indeed have a choice whether they want to see it or not - something a single (or ten) warning(s) can't give, if you happen to be just scrolling through the topic.

Unread post by **SpiritBinder** » Sat Mar 12, 2011 7:35 am

SgtMakkie wrote:This seems like the perfect place to put this, so I hope it comes over the right way.

WoW - Petopia, by it's name alone you see that this forum has two basic references, WOW and Pets, namely hunter pets. So with this goal in mind the forum has been setup to cater for this and a wonderful job it does too. A real credit to Mania and the mods. This is a mature and friendly place to come for your WoW / Pet / community stuff that you might not find elsewhere.

However at no point do I see anything saying this forum has an age limitation, a check to control that people are a minimum age or any proviso to say the content on this forum is unsuitable for specific age groups. With this in mind, each and every one of us has a responsibility for what we post and how people are treated when they come to the Petopia Forums. Yes there are likely to be people reading this site that are younger than 18!

Just from my point of view alone, I would be deeply saddened if 1 wrong (unsuitable for under 18) post or picture was to been seen by an adult/guardian and for them to take steps towards reporting this site and eventually having it shut down. Which could lead to big problems for the mods/admins. While this might seem extreme, anything that would bring discredit to the forums is something all of us should strive to avoid and control. Not just the mods!

As Mania has already said if you're not clear, don't post. If you'd be happy looking over your kids shoulder and seeing the content you're about to post, stop and think again. That wouldn't make it right! Your views and values should not be the base line for others!

While clear mod notes would be good to understand why something was edited or removed. Basically the whole idea of Not Safe for Work of any nature is questionable on a site where you'd like to encourage all age groups to enjoy the content provided.

thanks all
Makkie

I have been around these forums for quite some time now and I would just like to say, what Makkie has written is just perfect, I could not have written it better myself. Thankyou Makkie.

As for how many more mods, I say 1 or 2 more at the moment. If you are to introduce more mods I think it may be wise to make sure that they and the community here work well as we have a lot of people and personalities to work with. Too many mods to fast may upset the balance. But 1 or 2 more could help in my opinion.

As for our current mods, I would just like to thank for the amount of work that you have done selflessly (remember people, mods don't get paided to deal with our crazies, they do it out of love) Thankyou for keeping me in line ( I know I have need it at times : P ) and all of us for that matter. Thankyou for being understanding, Thankyou for everything.

SB.

WoW Petopia Community

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