Like I said, if you're on the site as a minor and you get caught looking at something you're not supposed to, that's your fault.
[...] I never said any mature content either, just it seemed to be the idea of a few to swear, curse etc and post images regardless of who might look. Why isn't it our responsibility to be smart about how we handle things? Like I said right in my first post, where do we control age etc?
Everything you write here is your responsibility.. Yes you have no control over who can read it, as the Petopia forums are open. However, does that give you any right to ignore the above (i.e. being smart)?
That doesn't make my statement any less true. We're not babysitters, and as Adam pointed out, teenagers don't really need to be treated like children. There's a really good chance that they hear far worse than anything that's brought up here at school.
Why does everything we post NEED to be clean and free of mature content? Like I said, in the posts that are about bringing information to the community, keep those clean and full of the information they're intending to provide makes sense. But if you make an off-topic post that you intend for a mature audience and place the proper tags and warnings on it, why should that not be allowed?
Last edited by Mania on Sat Mar 12, 2011 8:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason:Removed potential incitement.
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Lord Godfrey wrote:Some people only want to watch the world burn. Others want to be the ones responsible for burning it...
AdamSavage wrote:At the same time I didn't get told, your going to far so can you knock it off or anything like that. I even said I was going to find some gross picture and post it. Nothing was said and it was enabled.
The thing is... You can't assume us to read every single post on the forums mere minutes within posting, to react to 'threats' (really bad word for it, but can't think of a better one) that may be between the lines somewhere, or even think someone would actually make those 'threats' reality.
Now, I wasn't around when the gross image drama happened and I do not know how clear this 'threat' was and how long it took you to actually go to the images, but I just wanted to point out that we are no Big Brothers watching everything at all times. A silence shouldn't be taken as a permission to do something.
To be fair some of these post where over a couple days. However what is done is done. I did what I did and I found out what the consequences for what I did where.
So basically what is wrong with being respectful ? Post in a matter that all ages can read.
Teenagers are exactly that, not adults. As such they lack the ability to properly think their actions through in a cognitive way. As adults are we here to encourage them to be rude/ignorant etc ? Or to show by example?
SgtMakkie
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A child of five would understand this. Send someone to fetch a child of five.
SgtMakkie wrote:So basically what is wrong with being respectful ? Post in a matter that all ages can read.
Teenagers are exactly that, not adults. As such they lack the ability to properly think their actions through in a cognitive way. As adults are we here to encourage them to be rude/ignorant etc ? Or to show by example?
I think some of the teenagers here are going to disagree with you on that one.
SgtMakkie wrote:Teenagers are exactly that, not adults. As such they lack the ability to properly think their actions through in a cognitive way. As adults are we here to encourage them to be rude/ignorant etc ? Or to show by example?
Are you saying that teenagers lack cognitive abilities?
SgtMakkie wrote:So basically what is wrong with being respectful ? Post in a matter that all ages can read.
Teenagers are exactly that, not adults. As such they lack the ability to properly think their actions through in a cognitive way. As adults are we here to encourage them to be rude/ignorant etc ? Or to show by example?
Just because someone makes a mature post doesn't mean they're being disrespectful [...]. Just because someone uses foul language does not automatically mean that they're disrespectful. I can make an insulting post in G-rated language, does that make me respectful because I didn't curse? No, it doesn't. You can't [use] the word respectful to mean that all maturely made posts are bad.
And as someone who's just recently come out of their teen years, [...] They are capable of cognitive reasoning [...]
Last edited by Mania on Sat Mar 12, 2011 8:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason:Removed potential incitement.
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Lord Godfrey wrote:Some people only want to watch the world burn. Others want to be the ones responsible for burning it...
Vephriel, I hesitate to say this given what was going on in your life during some of the events, but you should've posted what you've written sooner. We can't read your mind, and not all of us knew the whole picture. The reason (or part of the reason) why those quotes of yours kept on being brought up again and again was because it was just about the only concrete feedback we had as to what was allowed in that thread. Deleting a post and banning a user does not count as feedback; if one wasn't there at the time to be able to piece together what happened, then you can't expect then to have gotten the message that things were being pushed to the limit. I just think, given how well it's been written, that what you've posted here could have helped diffuse problems had it been posted earlier. I'll stress the 'could', because you admittedly weren't working with the most level-headed people at the time, and that was a driving factor behind this mess blowing over that was (and still will be, should members get all hotblooded again) largely out of your control.
Also, I should clarify that I'm not pinning blame on you, but rather giving you a suggestion.
The above will hopefully give an idea of what the lack of communication was doing on our end. I do believe that public mod notes upon making edits or deletions could go a long ways to rectifying this, and guidelines even more so.
As for having more moderators, I do believe that's in order, if for no other reason than to avoid having a situation arise where the moderators are short-staffed and the community is failing to be on best behavior. When the drama involving the old rant thread was occurring, the rest of the forum was effectively lacking moderators since Kalliope was doubtlessly being quite preoccupied with all the unfolding drama.
Finally, I apologize for my role in the 'Grinds My Gears' thread exploding, and the aftermath as well. I think the only people who weren't at fault were those who weren't there, or saw what was happening and decided not to comment.
_
Oh, and can we drop the maturity topic? It's a moot point now, as far as I'm concerned; your arguments have all been laid out, and now it's simply a matter of what Mania decides the restriction will be as far as mature content is concerned. I doubt anything more that you can say on that topic will affect this.
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_____
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Yes, I do realize I should have posted sooner if I was able, but I've only just returned from a 2 week vacation. I was not online frequently and hence missed most of this situation while I was away, and I slept 20 hours yesterday when my plane came back and today's my first day of cognitive thought. It was really the first chance I've had to sit down and go over all this and make a reply. This is also why Kalli was on her own left to deal with the entire scenario. I was not present on the forums during my vacation other than quick pop ons to check a few topics, but I was not a stable enough presence to see, digest, and work with what was happening until I had returned home.
Cialbi wrote:Vephriel, I hesitate to say this given what was going on in your life during some of the events, but you should've posted what you've written sooner. We can't read your mind, and not all of us knew the whole picture. The reason (or part of the reason) why those quotes of yours kept on being brought up again and again was because it was just about the only concrete feedback we had as to what was allowed in that thread. Deleting a post and banning a user does not count as feedback; if one wasn't there at the time to be able to piece together what happened, then you can't expect then to have gotten the message that things were being pushed to the limit. I just think, given how well it's been written, that what you've posted here could have helped diffuse problems had it been posted earlier. I'll stress the 'could', because you admittedly weren't working with the most level-headed people at the time, and that was a driving factor behind this mess blowing over that was (and still will be, should members get all hotblooded again) largely out of your control.
Also, I should clarify that I'm not pinning blame on you, but rather giving you a suggestion.
The above will hopefully give an idea of what the lack of communication was doing on our end. I do believe that public mod notes upon making edits or deletions could go a long ways to rectifying this, and guidelines even more so.
As for having more moderators, I do believe that's in order, if for no other reason than to avoid having a situation arise where the moderators are short-staffed and the community is failing to be on best behavior. When the drama involving the old rant thread was occurring, the rest of the forum was effectively lacking moderators since Kalliope was doubtlessly being quite preoccupied with all the unfolding drama.
Finally, I apologize for my role in the 'Grinds My Gears' thread exploding, and the aftermath as well. I think the only people who weren't at fault were those who weren't there, or saw what was happening and decided not to comment.
_
Oh, and can we drop the maturity topic? It's a moot point now, as far as I'm concerned; your arguments have all been laid out, and now it's simply a matter of what Mania decides the restriction will be as far as mature content is concerned. I doubt anything more that you can say on that topic will affect this.
I wish I were as level-headed as you, Cialbi.
I agree with this post, especially his first paragraph. And, like you said, we're starting to beat a dead horse here. I will stop posting about the maturity matter.
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Lord Godfrey wrote:Some people only want to watch the world burn. Others want to be the ones responsible for burning it...
Maybe now that things have calmed down, I can explain myself again [...]
What Makkie said is absolutely correct and my motivation for removing/editing the posts in question. I didn't expect anyone to have a problem with the removal of the "female issues" posts because they had already served their purpose. That conversation should have taken place privately, but since I wasn't here and it went to its full duration, I figured it would go basically unnoticed.
I was not expecting the backlash, especially not before I had a chance to make a post saying "I removed these posts for this reason; please use better judgment in the future." The only posts that were removed without comment were the ones that led to bannings and Moore's, which was in response to one of the posts that led to a ban. I have put mod notes in posts before, but I guess those went unnoticed. I also don't think it's necessary to add a mod note every time a thread gets moved to a different forum; that seems rather extreme.
It seems that some people feel as though the addition of the mature/NSFW tags was a "ninja edit." From my perspective, it's no different than adding a tag to any other thread on the forum - it's additional information. However, in this particular case, the tags only masked the true underlying problem (that we don't have an official statement of what is and is not okay to talk about on the forum). More on that later. In the meantime, I think it's safe to say that changing something that the mods deemed appropriate (especially in Mania's absence) was a bad choice. The tags could have sat there until Mania got back and this all got sorted out, but instead, things came to a head before they should have. I am glad Veph locked the thread when she did. The breakdown of communication was apparent and going nowhere.
I'm from a PvP server. For those of you who haven't had the experience, there isn't a whole lot of censorship there. I can get into off-color topics with the best of them. However, I make a point of restraining myself here for the aforementioned reasons. We don't know if someone's kids are reading the site. We don't have a very specific set of guidelines for topics (yet). On the one hand, it's a WoW forum; things could possibly be raunchy. On the other hand, according to the guidelines previously posted by Mania, we're not supposed to be using more than mild oaths when it comes to profanity. If we can't swear, then it stands to reason that our subject matter should be a bit reserved as well. [...] As I said before in the gears thread, we'll ALL know how to handle things better once we have some very clear guidelines hammered out. In the meantime, I suggest erring on the side of caution.
Could I have handled the gears situation better? Probably. And I do apologize for that. But nothing excuses piling on me or any mod for trying to do their job. There are surely better ways (like this thread) of addressing the real issues at hand.
Please don't take anything personally. I know a number of people have already and they're entitled to think that, but it's not personal. I'd have said the same thing to myself. I just hope that I would have listened in that scenario.
(I apologize for hopping back and forth a bit; there's a LOT of ground to cover.)
Last edited by Mania on Sat Mar 12, 2011 9:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason:Removed potential incitement.
[Mania says: I've removed the bulk of this post as being a tangent to the main topic. Feel free to start threads on the cognitive abilities of children and uses of language in Off-Topic Chat if you'd like to continue the discussion.]
Nice post Kalli... (damn you lot write quick )
Last edited by Mania on Sat Mar 12, 2011 9:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason:Removed potential incitement.
SgtMakkie
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A child of five would understand this. Send someone to fetch a child of five.
So, All in all I think the forums are on the way to being better as soon as everyone puts their petty differences behind.
Stop trying to take pot shots at one another might help out too
Last edited by Mania on Sat Mar 12, 2011 9:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason:Removed off-topic bits referring to deleted off-topic post.
- I Be Indestructible Mon! -
"One thing I've learned about idiots - they are utterly without shame." - Worba
Wow.....this definitely escalated more than I thought.
[...] ninja edits without warning or reason. Thats what ticked people off [...]. I never saw [...] a note. I never saw anything say "Hey guys, lets take the fem-talk to PMs now, okay?". [...] I've already sent Mania my two-cents on what policies should be in place and such. If any of the [...] mods had made the same [...] mistake' [...] that day, people would've still be ticked. It wasn't personal but they made it clear that what was done wasn't cool on any standards. [...] Also the whole 'unnoticed' bit is also a problem. It NEEDS to be noticed. If people dont or cant see it, then you might wanna try making it more noticable. [...] It's communication with a large community. Petopia isnt tiny anymore.
Last edited by Mania on Sat Mar 12, 2011 9:15 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Reason:Removed potential incitement.
Jessibelle wrote:Wow.....this definitely escalated more than I thought.
[...] ninja edits without warning or reason. Thats what ticked people off [...]. I never saw [...] a note. I never saw anything say "Hey guys, lets take the fem-talk to PMs now, okay?". [...] I've already sent Mania my two-cents on what policies should be in place and such. If any of the [...] mods had made the same [...] mistake' [...] that day, people would've still be ticked. It wasn't personal but they made it clear that what was done wasn't cool on any standards. [...] Also the whole 'unnoticed' bit is also a problem. It NEEDS to be noticed. If people dont or cant see it, then you might wanna try making it more noticable. [...] It's communication with a large community. Petopia isnt tiny anymore.
^ Well written.
Last edited by Mania on Sat Mar 12, 2011 9:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason:Removed potential incitement.
Jessibelle wrote:Wow.....this definitely escalated more than I thought.
[...] ninja edits without warning or reason. Thats what ticked people off [...]. I never saw [...] a note. I never saw anything say "Hey guys, lets take the fem-talk to PMs now, okay?". [...] I've already sent Mania my two-cents on what policies should be in place and such. If any of the [...] mods had made the same [...] mistake' [...] that day, people would've still be ticked. It wasn't personal but they made it clear that what was done wasn't cool on any standards. [...] Also the whole 'unnoticed' bit is also a problem. It NEEDS to be noticed. If people dont or cant see it, then you might wanna try making it more noticable. [...] It's communication with a large community. Petopia isnt tiny anymore.
^ Well written.
Thanks. I edited it a little to add more. I was trying to be as calm and collected as possible. I've screwed up a few times and I admit it. Live and learn, right? I want to see these forums improve.
Last edited by Mania on Sat Mar 12, 2011 9:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason:Removed potential incitement.
Well, as I posted in the first place, Jessibelle, I only got on the forum after the discussion was over, otherwise, rest assured, I would have warned against that line of conversation up front and suggested that it be taken to PMs.
[...] I was in the process of removing the posts, as I didn't want to accidentally cut out anything that was fine for the thread. This resulted in some messy edits and a blanket note at the end, since I felt that things needed to be addressed immediately.
That was the part that was mishandled. I still stand by the removal of the original posts and do not consider it to be a mistake, for reasons stated earlier in this thread and that one.
I understand the frustration that many people, yourself included, expressed, but I thought that the way said frustration was expressed could have been handled better as well, either by contacting Mania privately and waiting or at least using a more neutral tone. [...]
Last edited by Mania on Sat Mar 12, 2011 9:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason:Removed potential incitement.
Kalliope wrote:Well, as I posted in the first place, Jessibelle, I only got on the forum after the discussion was over, otherwise, rest assured, I would have warned against that line of conversation up front and suggested that it be taken to PMs.
[...] I was in the process of removing the posts, as I didn't want to accidentally cut out anything that was fine for the thread. This resulted in some messy edits and a blanket note at the end, since I felt that things needed to be addressed immediately.
That was the part that was mishandled. I still stand by the removal of the original posts and do not consider it to be a mistake, for reasons stated earlier in this thread and that one.
I understand the frustration that many people, yourself included, expressed, but I thought that the way said frustration was expressed could have been handled better as well, either by contacting Mania privately and waiting or at least using a more neutral tone. [...].
I agree, save for post removal. I personally don't think posts should be removed unless they're REALLY bad like advertising porn or something. But that's just me. Though I may send Mania over to a little adoptables forum called Magistream. They have a thing on their forum that acts like the LJ-Cut. Maybe she can develop that for here so post removal won't be necessary.
I will say, people probably didn't contact Mania because she was sick and they did not want to make it worse with stress. I know thats definitely something that held me back from contacting her sooner than I did. So I think that was a bit of a wrench in the gears at the time too.
Last edited by Mania on Sat Mar 12, 2011 9:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason:Removed potential incitement.
[...]Being a forum moderator is a thankless job, as this whole incident proves. This is a forum for hunter pets and related wow topics--posting about other things here is not some God Given Right.
Last edited by Mania on Sat Mar 12, 2011 9:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason:Removed potential incitement.
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