Something to think of on the forums

[cowmuflage]

See this thread has made me change my ways of posting (I thank Kalliope mainly) Guess it's for the better.

[Cialbi]

P.S. Bashing someone that is not able to respond is bad form.

No, he only got a temporary ban, and has already posted twice in this thread since then.

[rubybeam]

Umm I know adding to it should be bad but I would like to add a few things

First of all just be glad no ones being hostile to people to what fandom their in and what they claim themselves as, Iv'e seen foums go completely crazy with this, a furry or anime obsessed person joins, they get flamed. For even probably just claiming what they were
As fa as I know im a Furry, I have found that I haven't gotten one insult the whole time I was a member of this community, in fact I know a few people who absoltuley hate furries and have been nice to me, Im friends with them to. So yeah the forums aren't a complete hostile place like we think, its quite tame compared to other places on the internet
I'd also like to add it may not be hate thats causing all this but much rather
Stress, real-life Issues and such
I know myself and someone else have HUGE emotion problems and have a hard time putting anger on a leash. I know iv'e flamed by when angry like this, when im not my normal self, the WoWrp should be well aware of what im like in this state
Also stress in real life could cause flaming, some people come to these forums for fun, its a community after all, but what happens if they post stressed?
Flaming they wouldn't mean to do otherwise
So yeah dont blame it on complete hostility theres other reasons

[Kalliope]

Agreed, Ruby. It's amazing how tolerant this forum is on the whole of different beliefs and backgrounds. However, this tolerance often does not extend to differences in WoW playstyle, which is more of the issue at hand. The behavior in question is not that of people who are temporarily ticked off at the world or other such states of mind. The passive-aggressive attacks are constant and present on a daily basis.

[rubybeam]

I know kalliope, I was just pointing out that real life stress may be one of the problems for some users
also before someone mauls me for making this comment, I was not in any way trying to attack kalliope with it, I was simply pointing out something

[cowmuflage]

Um can one of you two like point me too these passive-aggressive things I'm kind of lost on that subject. In a PM of corse. If its me I'm trying to change XD

[Pawtrack]

"Hey, I'm not sure how this is going to come over so I'll just say it and hope you understand. Please try and use a spell checker for your posts. Some of the things you write really do not come over as strongly as you would like because the spelling is quite poor at times. *holds up hands* I'm sure as hell not perfect either btw, don't misunderstand me. Just with the built-in spell checkers in most browsers there really isn't an excuse.

Just compare the above which has been corrected to the post you made.

Thanks
Makkie"

(I had included a copy of some text which was corrected as reference).

What?

Alright, I can get being annoyed by bad grammar or bad spelling, especially if it's something extremely hard to read because of the spelling/slang etc..
But asking someone to use spellcheck because they misspell a few things and you dislike reading misspelled words? I'm sorry but the internet is not the place for you

If I'm reading a book, and I dislike the wording of a sentence (cause I'm weird that way), I just reread it, rephrase it in my mind, and continue reading the book. I don't say:

"Dear writer,
Please rephrase this sentence, because I think this sentence is better.
KTHXPLZBAI"

(Maybe you were trying to help, and in that case that is an excellent example of how people can misunderstand things on the internet. I'm sorry, if that is the case.)

And, to anyone thinks these forums are being run badly:
You're free to start your own forums, and run them yourself.

It's easy to read something on the internet as offensive or mean. And in this culture not many people are allowed to be blunt.
I try to keep two things in mind when writing stuff:

1: Your view is not the only view
2: You're talking to actual people, not taking your anger out at a computer screen, and you never know if the person you're talking to is having a bad time as well.

I have a fairly volatile temper, and I make sure to re-read my posts, and edit them if I think that someone might take them the wrong way. Just for precaution.

This is an interesting discussion, if a bit harsh at times, so keep it up.

[Kalliope]

*nodnods to Ruby* Exactly; it's a factor for some of the other troubles the forum is having. (And no, no offense in either direction!)

[Vasken]

It's a bit, hhgnh. I've not been around an awful long time, but around long enough to spot the problems everyone's mentioning. Debate's fine, but many threads simply tend to descend into a passive-aggressive wall o' argument. Or if someone disagress with your opinion, they tend to write their own in the most harsh and demeaning words possible. Will still lurk around- but I genuinely don't feel welcome enough to post here (think the 600k thread was the straw that broke the metaphorical camel's back!). There's certainly the occasional nice moment, however! And the information supplied here is fantastic!

Even so- hghfdnhhhghshg.

[Anyia]

"if you can't say anything nice don't say anything at all"

^

Even if you think that what you're posting is nice and just an explanation of your previous posts, resist the temptation to post for the sake of getting the last word. In many (most?) cases "last word" posts should be limited to cases where "I'm sorry, I was wrong." is the appropriate content.*

I find it both amusing and sad that the collective forum can hold a largely flame free discussion on disagreement-riddled topics such as religion and politics, but comes to blows over things related to WoW. Though maybe that is precisely why - it's a subject of little actual significance, so less restraint is practiced?

/relurk


*) I might not always succeed in practicing what I preach. For that I apologize.

[Ashaine]

"if you can't say anything nice don't say anything at all"

^

Even if you think that what you're posting is nice and just an explanation of your previous posts, resist the temptation to post for the sake of getting the last word. In many (most?) cases "last word" posts should be limited to cases where "I'm sorry, I was wrong." is the appropriate content.

^
Hit the nail right on the head with that one. Very succinctly put.

[Lisaara]

Agreed totally with Xella. Directly attacking people isn't the answer and more often than not, you're misunderstanding someones words and letting past grudges speak for you rather than making a responsible answer. I've had people talk nicely to me so I know it's not just because of something I posted. It's always the same few people that tend to bite me. No one else. I try to word things the best that I can and I've gotten better at not coming off as aggressive unless someone aggressively comes at me first. And it's true, I probably shouldn't stoop to their level but what am I to do when I get made fun of for not responding at all? It's quite a conundrum.

Lately it feels like I'm damned if I do, damned if I don't.

Jessibelle, please don't start this up again. I know you might not mean to but, well, it comes across as blaming again, which will create more hostility. I know how it feels, though, so I'm not against you or anything. Just please think carefully about your words. Now maybe let's stop this altogether, hmm?

Sorry. I wasn't trying to start something. *hugs*

But I do agree with what ruby and everyone else was saying.

[SgtMakkie]

I'm sorry but it is time for the Makkie bandwagon to stop! A lot of you have posted some very valid and correct points and I have gone over the line once or twice, for which I am sorry (remember this!).

Now, lets look back shall we. Someone has out right called me a bully, yet in their actions have, in light of no evidence to disclaim my argument, proven them self the very thing they accuse me of being - A Bully. Playing the hurt wounded little deer is not going to work! This is hardly fair! The thing that worries me more, no one mentions it or indeed says that integrity is important on these or any forums. I'm still waiting for my apology btw???

Disagree with the post, don't attack the poster.

This is a very valid point, however, it doesn't help when the poster either runs to the mods or starts writing in 50 size bold font because people aren't agreeing with what they said or they're not prepared to actually fairly debate the Op of the post they made. Instead they go nit-picking at other people who might agree with what someone else has written. The ironic thing is they only go ahead and do the very same thing themselves, for which they nitpicked another! Wonderful way to build respect on a forum.

Pawtrack, it would of been better had you simply come out and asked me what my meaning was by sending that singular PM to Cow. Instead you launch into disagreeing with me and saying how bad it was for me to do it only to then write this:

(Maybe you were trying to help, and in that case that is an excellent example of how people can misunderstand things on the internet. I'm sorry, if that is the case.)

It doesn't really add up eh?!? But I'll leave you with your own words to best answer:

It's easy to read something on the internet as offensive or mean.

Please next time, come ask me.

So far Kalliope is the only one that has really shown that there are indeed two sides to this (and all other) story(ies). I would of appreciated a bit more understanding from such a knowledgeable community. Don't just hold the repliers responsible, cause you'll only fester the very thing you're trying to remove from these forums.

Finally a note to the mods, if you wish to write mod-notes on the admin side like you have for me. Someone that tells the truth and might be blunt and a little rude when pushed, I do sure hope you are equally fair to the people who outright lie and throw temper tantrums at the slightest sniff of disagreement. Otherwise you're no better than the person you're painting me out to be...! Not very professional eh

[AdamSavage]

Well when you say stuff like "then by all means take some more rope to hang yourself" your not exactly painting a nice picture of yourself..Just saying..

[SgtMakkie]

Well, take a shovel and keep digging, it's the same thing. It doesn't mean literally, but as has already been said things on the net lack the tone and voice to convey the exact meaning. Regardless of the picture I may portray, it doesn't make the actions of others correct!

Another problem I've noticed is people don't let things go.

Maybe you should take your own advice, as you've been known to not exactly let sleeping dogs lie in the past.

Simple fact is it seems this forum condones the actions of a liar, by disregarding them at every turn, over someone that is obvious about their actions and even comes forward and says sorry, oh yeah and is honest! I think that is more a reflection on yourselves than my bad judgement in posting is on me.

[Kalliope]

Indeed, it's very easy to just blame Makkie's wording on escalating this latest situation. But that is not the entirety of the truth.

The real problem here is that while more reasonable people admit their parts in escalating situations (since hey, everyone makes mistakes from time to time), a certain person continues to agree with everything that's been said, even though most of it is being said directly about THEM. The kicker is that their behavior does not change. Nothing is learned from any of these incidents, because it happens again and someone else shoulders the entirety of the blame. Sure, the person in question can agree with the concepts of what's being posted, but they do not understand that they themselves have been behaving that way since day 1.

No, I'm not blaming this person for everything. The rest of us should still be exerting patience with said person (and with everyone else, of course). The problem is that this person never truly accepts their part in passive-aggressive attacks because they don't see it that way. They do not seem to understand that when this happens over and over and over again, it's NOT everyone else's personal bias against this person that causes the incidents; it's the repeated behavior and blind mistreatment of others and their opinions that provokes this response.

I'd like to address this person directly, but any time I have in the past, my words have fallen on deaf ears. So I shall do so again here, in the hopes that this time, the message shall be received:

You're not a bad person. You're very passionate in your beliefs, which many of us are. Please show some restraint when posting and consider that not everyone sees the world (of warcraft or otherwise) the same way as you do, nor should they have to. If a subject doesn't interest you, you don't have to post in the thread. If people disagree with your opinion, you don't have to try to change their minds. Don't hound people about their opinions. These are the passive-aggressive attacks that are so wearing on people, that occasionally provoke strong responses. You can't always expect everyone else to be patient, then throw all the blame on them when they're not. It doesn't work like that. It's not that people have a personal bias against you or that the world is out to get you. If you backed off and gave people some breathing room, you'd get better responses, even now. Please, please think before you post. Even if you never admit fault for the past, please try to behave differently in the future. You might be surprised at how you're received, even by those you think hate you.

As a group, we really shouldn't need Mania or a faceless moderator to swoop in and babysit us. The majority of us are adults or teenagers who carry a sense of maturity. We need to be able to examine ourselves truthfully and correct our own behavior rather than only pointing it out in others. The first step of that is acceptance of our own part in things. It doesn't make us bad people, just human. The forumgoers on the whole used to be better at this. Let's strive to reach that goal again in the interest of peace.

[Golden]

I agree with what Kalliope and Makkie said wholeheartedly! It's simply far too easy to put all the blame on those who admit their responsibility, while those who take the part of the victim go unpunished, even if they were just as much at fault.

The real problem here is that while more reasonable people admit their parts in escalating situations (since hey, everyone makes mistakes from time to time), a certain person continues to agree with everything that's been said, even though most of it is being said directly about THEM. The kicker is that their behavior does not change. Nothing is learned from any of these incidents, because it happens again and someone else shoulders the entirety of the blame. Sure, the person in question can agree with the concepts of what's being posted, but they do not understand that they themselves have been behaving that way since day 1.

Now if you'll excuse me, I'll go hang that paragraph on my wall.

[Saturo]

My respect for you has increased, Kalli. Agreed wholeheartedly.

[Lisaara]

There is something I'd like to say. Yes, I've been thinking about this for the past few days and I'm hoping I can word this correctly. I fear some people may still be snarky regardless of what I say or do but here goes.....

I want to apologize, deeply, to anyone I've ever came off to as passive-aggressive. In truth, I'm not like that at all. It's hard to tell tone online as you cannot see facial expression or hear the person's voice. I've been trying really hard and many here have told me I've gotten better but as humans go, we do slip from time to time. Whether it be from stress at work, home, or girl things....I still take full responsibility for my actions, even if some think I don't.

Now there have been times where I've been out of line and I have admitted it as such. But there have been times where I have not, yet still I get blamed even if something wasn't my fault(and others have also said I wasn't at fault for some things). I don't like it when someone jumps into my topic and goes "Wah wah you're just being a baby" nor do I take kindly to someone chewing me out for not responding to them when I was busy IRL spending time with my fiance. I don't like being cornered or pressured and there's been several times where it's happened. I need breathing room too, just as much as anyone else does. When I get pushed into a corner(someone or a few someones basically forcing me to respond), I tend to let the claws come out. I shouldn't get myself into that situation but there are a few here that seem to instigate it for whatever reason.

I should be better than that, I know. Sometimes, instinct just takes over, especially when I'm around that time of the month(Not a crutch, just saying my temperment goes haywire. I'm still responsible for it). Either way, neither party is innocent and I think a lot of members can see that from an outside view.

With that said, I propose we make a meaningful apology to each other and just drop this after all is said and done. Clean slate, so to speak. Fighting like this is stupid. We need to stop the snarky remarks. Stop the cliques. We should(mostly) be adults or pretty close to it and we should act like it. And yes, I'm including myself in the 'we' part. We should all try harder to be better than this. If we feel we're gonna say something that will sound wrong, we should stop and think before we say it. Maybe have an unbiased nonforum friend read the reply before you post it to ensure the right message is sent across.

In closing, I'm going to be messaging a few people personally to see if we can bury the hatchet, much like Malfurion and Illidan did a long time ago.

[AdamSavage]

I approve of Kalliope's reply and give it the official mythbusters stamp of approval.