The Lich Queen

[RimeCat]

Edit: Seems like after more thought given, her way is a little wierd, trying to gain the trust of all the undead, like going to do a major step against someone. Supporting every single undead, its not normal. I bet the other horde leaders dont exacly have time for every person comes to them. Anyhow, the way she acts is suspecious.

So ... would your definition of a "normal" leader be one who doesn't take the time and effort to know his/her people? One that doesn't care?

That's a scary definition of normal.

The thing is we are talking about the leader of a nation. When's the last time a PM or President stopped by to welcome the newest clerk into the Department of Useless Paperwork? She should have far more to do than try to convince some nobody that she really does have the best interest of the Forsaken in mind, honestly - no attempt at creating more people who share this condition we all loathe and despise just to increase the size of the army until the whole of the Eastern Kingdoms can be rolled and bow before the Queen of the Damned. Sorry, slipped fandom there...

If you do the Argent quests in EPL one of the the tower chains is provided by a former Royal Apothecary who broke oath with Silvanas and ran to the Crusade when he became concerned with her actions. We aren't really given much additional information but it is telling when the senior members of a government decide that they have had enough and start to flee. Given the nature of the Apothecary Society it is even more interesting that one of them would find the change in Silvanas unnerving enough to escape. That can be interpreted another way, of course - he was not concerned with what Silvanas was doing but with the fear that she was about take off the velvet glove and rule with a bare iron fist. Personally, I find that more likely but we are not provided enough information in the quest chain to decide on his actual motivation.

Finally, the Forsaken have always hated the condition of undeath. That was one of the great motivations of the people - to take revenge on the individual who did this to them. Now that the task is done I could definitely see the Forsaken coming a bit apart at the seems. After all, the obsession of a nation has been satisfied. Now what? I cannot imagine them willingly taking to the creation of new scourge. Some would, of course, indeed some would be all for raising up a subservient class of bound undead who will carry-out the will of the Forsaken without fear or remorse. Sounds somewhat like what lies in store for Koltira.

[Naiaara]

I love this thread. Sylvanas is one of my most favorite characters, and I don't even play Horde.

I think that Sylvanas is concerned for her people, and she regularly demonstrates this. In the beta, when the Forsaken invade Gilneas, I can understand because the Worgen could have possibly been a huge threat to her and her people. The best way to get rid of an enemy is to eradicate them, like the Forsaken did to the Worgen, or make the enemy your friend, like the Horde did with the Forsaken.

I think that Sylvanas is quite possibly too worried about her people, and to me it almost borders on paranoia. I don't think that Koltira incident was as bad as it was made out to be. In her life, she probably had to discipline her soldiers if one stepped out of line. If one person steps out of line, who is to say that more won't step out of line and start to oppose you?

I see what she did to Koltira as a necessary evil, but that doesn't make it right.

[Arwyn]

Though its great that Blizz flushed out Sylvanas' character for me its some what troubling that since they had no problem removing King Magni that they wouldn't have any problems removing Sylvanas if they decided to.

[Turgus]

Cerah wrote:
I have to disagree with the idea that Sylvanus is a tyrant-in-the-making because of her treatment of new Forsaken characters, as of 4.0.3a.

When you first arise as a new Forsaken, the first quests out in Deathknell make it quite clear that the newly undead are given a choice, to either become part of the Forsaken or not. Nobody is forced into it. Another starter quest has you talk to other new Undead, and to try to convince them to join Sylvanus' cause. One joins right away. Another, a former Scarlet, runs off into the woods, and only when he attacks Deathknell with his followers are you told that you must "regretably" put him down. A third, a daughter of a Scarlet officer, runs off on her own. As far as I know, you don't see her again after the Tirstfal glades. Nobody is forced to follow the Banshee Queen, but as an Undead, it's the most logical choice.

In Silverpine, while helping the Forsaken war effort against the Worgen, Sylvanus specifically requests that you, a noob, stand beside her when she demonstrates the Val'kyr's abilities to Garrosh. After, she rides with you to the Sepulcher, telling you the story of the Forsaken personally. She's treating your character so well, taking the time to talk with you, to explain your mission personally, when you were still lying in the dirt days before. Is that the actions of a tyrant? I haven't rolled a new Orc yet, but I seriously doubt that Hellscream is so accomindating to new recruits.

Arthas was a child, playing at being an adult, doing whatever was expected of him, when the only thing he really wanted for himself was to have his horse back. After reading Arthas: Rise of the Lich King, I honestly think that the only thing Arthas ever really loved was Invincible. He was scared shitless of becoming king, of marrying Jaina and having kids of his own -- in short, of growing up. He much prefered going off to kill undead, because slaughtering things, undead or in danger (but in most examples, not yet) of becoming undead, because killing things is much easier than dealing with the living, especially if he could justify it by saying it was "for my people". Arthas was just the kind of person Frostmourne was waiting for.

Sylvanus, in contrast, was, in life, already in a position of high responsiblility. She was Ranger-General of Quel'thalas, in charge of her people's military forces, with hundreds of elves under her and the responsibility of safeguarding her kingdom. She was the opposite of Arthas, someone who did not and would never shrink from her duties. Perhaps that's what pissed him off so badly about her -- he couldn't stand her because she was the hero he could never be, for all his playing Paladin dress up. So after slaughtering her people, he denied her peace in death.

Sylvanus was too strong-willed for even the Lich King's favourite death knight and successor to control, however, and when she had her chance for freedom, she took it, but she did not take it alone. When other scourge regained their free will, she did not abandon them, like almost anyone else would have. There was always the chance that Silvermoon would have welcomed her back, even in undeath, she could have gone home. But for the formerly human undead, whose kingdom was destroyed and whose surviving human families and friends saw them as monsters, there was no chance at that, and Sylvanus did not just leave them to their fates. Instead, she took Undercity away from Arthas' forces, she made a homeland for the people of Lorderan, who had just as much claim to the land in undeath as they did in life, no matter what the Alliance thinks. She gave the Forsaken a home, a purpose, and hope for the future. In short, she did the same for her people as Thrall did for the Orcs, as Cairne did for the Tauren, and Vol'jin for the Darkspear Trolls.

She is no little kid, mad at the world for imaginary unjustices, and throwing one hell of a temper tantram, as Arthas did. Sylvanus is exactly what a leader should be -- an unwaivering advocate for her people. If that makes her evil, then every other faction leader is evil as well.

Very well said.

So I watched the youtube videos of the Andorhal quest chain, and I have to disagree with the guys who say that what she did was wrong.
What Koltira did was treasonous, and his statements during the quest chain shows that he knows this to be true.
And how did his friend react to their agreement? Thassarian immediately broke their pact and attacked the Forsaken on two fronts.
This almost cost Koltira the entire battle for Andorhal, but thanks to <insert player character here> it wasn't.

So just what is the penalty for consorting with the enemy in wartime?
Death. Plain and simple.

So what did Sylvanas do?
Well, it wasn't death to be sure, but just what it is, it is not stated.
But, it definitely looked unpleasant.
Maybe some sort of magical reeducation, like magic shock therapy.
Who knows?

But, he crossed that line.
And with the Dark Lady no less.
So personally, he got what is coming to him.

Does anyone else remember him from Northrend?
If it was anyone else I might have... might have... felt sorry for him.

[Chrizesu]

Very well said.

So I watched the youtube videos of the Andorhal quest chain, and I have to disagree with the guys who say that what she did was wrong.
What Koltira did was treasonous, and his statements during the quest chain shows that he knows this to be true.
And how did his friend react to their agreement? Thassarian immediately broke their pact and attacked the Forsaken on two fronts.
This almost cost Koltira the entire battle for Andorhal, but thanks to <insert player character here> it wasn't.

So just what is the penalty for consorting with the enemy in wartime?
Death. Plain and simple.

So what did Sylvanas do?
Well, it wasn't death to be sure, but just what it is, it is not stated.
But, it definitely looked unpleasant.
Maybe some sort of magical reeducation, like magic shock therapy.
Who knows?

But, he crossed that line.
And with the Dark Lady no less.
So personally, he got what is coming to him.

Does anyone else remember him from Northrend?
If it was anyone else I might have... might have... felt sorry for him.

They had a close friendship from North. It would have been better for both if they stayed up there cleaning out remaining forces.

There's a reason why I align myself with the Life Binder. I even have a character who's leaning towards joining the Twilight Cultists.

[Turgus]

I guess I should have written, "Does anyone else remember what a compete jerk he was in Northrend?"
Because, I HATED doing his quest chain. Running all over the place, working my ass off so HE could get more powerful.
The entire time he is degrading you and calling you names.

Its too bad that this happened to such a "nice" character....

[Sonata]

Very well said.

So I watched the youtube videos of the Andorhal quest chain, and I have to disagree with the guys who say that what she did was wrong.
What Koltira did was treasonous, and his statements during the quest chain shows that he knows this to be true.
And how did his friend react to their agreement? Thassarian immediately broke their pact and attacked the Forsaken on two fronts.
This almost cost Koltira the entire battle for Andorhal, but thanks to <insert player character here> it wasn't.

What second front? Unless you think the farmers were actually commanded to attack from the rear, they started to attack on their own cause the Forsaken killed innocent farmers and turned them to Forsaken, do tell me that is justified. I'm okay with corpses and spirits bound but LIVE people!
Actually I looked into the questchain and they had a talk and agreed to set their brotherhood aside and fight eachother in the name of their respective factions but take it lightly since they are friends.
They wanted to fight eachother honorably not like what Sylvanas did.

But, he crossed that line.

In my honest opinion I think Sylvanas crossed the line. Koltira is not Forsaken even if dead, he is part of the Horde and is welcomed into the Ebon Blade and I see no other Death Knights of the Ebon Blade bowing the Dark Lady unless all of them are Forsaken.
Mind you she is one of my favorite characters and is awesome regards of what she does but I just don't like some bits.

Does anyone else remember him from Northrend?
If it was anyone else I might have... might have... felt sorry for him.

Now tell me last time I checked Death Knights are not happiness and sunshine...and you get jogged around the whole continent by various quest givers and you blame him for a rude attitude.

EDIT:
And all information I have stated can be corrected if neccessary since I might be a bit hotheaded.

[Mustafah]

I can't agree with you. Sylvanas had an impressive life, and as you said Arthas seemed like a chicken, but now she's different. She is undead, not the ranger general of Quel'thalas. The power went to her head, and it corrupts her. I guess blizz will make a Horde quest to go and stop her madness. Because what she is doing now is madness. And after what I saw she did, I Do prefer Garrosh, he is young and not expirienced, and he does mistakes.

I have to disagree back. Sylvanus still cares about the blood elves, even in undeath. It was mostly her influence that got the blood elves into the Horde in the first place. She didn't just abandon them in their time of need, like the Alliance did. She just had to take care of herself and the Forsaken first, that's all.

Edit: Seems like after more thought given, her way is a little wierd, trying to gain the trust of all the undead, like going to do a major step against someone. Supporting every single undead, its not normal. I bet the other horde leaders dont exacly have time for every person comes to them. Anyhow, the way she acts is suspecious.

So ... would your definition of a "normal" leader be one who doesn't take the time and effort to know his/her people? One that doesn't care?

That's a scary definition of normal.

All of that was before the power went to her head. Somebody has to stop her madness. It is against nature to rise people from the dead, and you can argue with that, and She Will Be Judged.

[Royi]

I guess I should have written, "Does anyone else remember what a compete jerk he was in Northrend?"
Because, I HATED doing his quest chain. Running all over the place, working my ass off so HE could get more powerful.
The entire time he is degrading you and calling you names.

Its too bad that this happened to such a "nice" character....

Hah I agree, Koilta was a bit of a jerk anyways aye?

[The Number Nine]

What I don't understand is why in all these Sylvanas threads, (including the one originally about Garrosh), people seem to find what she's doing disgusting or appaling. I guess a lot of people here aren't misanthropists like myself. On the contrary, I completely agree with everything she's done up to this point. She really just pulled the pity card from Thrall to use the Horde to her advantage, kinda like cannon fodders almost. Don't get me wrong, I love the unity and strength that is the "True Horde" races, but I do believe in the Forsaken's method in their extreme measures to get what they want, when they want it. I suppose it's all a part of being Forsaken in the first place. Once you're dead, there's really nothing else that you care to lose. Even friends or allies. For them, allies are also just another word for meat shields, cannon fodders, fresh corpses for more Forsaken.

I say, death to the scourge, and death to the living!
Clearly Blizzard's writers are also like-minded as I, as they would kill off an aspect of magic, a hero of the second war, even a herald of the Titans, but keep Sylvanas around. lol
Even for people who don't agree with the method, they can still agree it'll make for an interesting plot.

[cowmuflage]

I don't think she should become some "lich queen" It would be stupid and well infact make those uptight hardcore alliance players have something to brag about. Its not like they don't do it enough allready.

[Cerah]

All of that was before the power went to her head. Somebody has to stop her madness. It is against nature to rise people from the dead, and you can argue with that, and She Will Be Judged.

Just about everything that a civilized nation, no matter the race, does is "against nature" in some way or another. For example, wearing clothes is against nature. To be truly "natural", we'd all have to be running around in the buff all the time, which would make a large portion of the world, including my home country of Canada, uninhabitable. Polar bear swimmers aside, you'd have to be crazy to go outside in Canada between the months of November and March without wearing something. Many other things that make it possible for us to sit at a computer and argue about fictional worlds in the first place are equally "unnatural" -- farming, electricity generation, indoor lights, computers themselves, the written word ... need I go on?

Yes, raising people from the dead is a little more extreme than putting on a toque, but Sylvanas is merely doing whatever it takes to save her people from extinction, which is exactly what will happen, sooner or later, if she doesn't. The Forsaken must have lost a large amount of their people in the Northrend campaign, and that doesn't even count all the "adventurers" (player characters) who had been fighting for their Horde friends in Vanilla and TBC as well. If she doesn't do something, her people's numbers will dwindle to the point where they no longer have the manpower to hold onto the Tirstfal Glades. Then what do you think would happen? The Alliance, with all their happily-baby-making living races, would charge in like they owned the place. Without the barrier of the Forsaken and the plaguelands, how long do you think it would be before the High Elves pushed to "retake their home" from the other 90% of their species' surviving population? The Horde would lose everything in the Eastern Kingdoms. How long after that do you think the Orcs, Trolls, Tauren and Goblins would last? I seriously doubt the Alliance would be "kind" enough to shove them all in concentration camps after what happened the last time they did that either.

By safeguarding her own people's territory and people, even by what would be considered by most races morally questionable means, Sylvanus just might be saving the entire Horde from Alliance aggression. If that means raising formerally enemy combatants into her own forces, then so be it.

What would you honestly rather have as a player? A continuing "war", or the so-called peace akin to that after the Second War, a peace of persecution, enslavement and death for anyone not ruled under the Alliance Lion.

[Lisaara]

By safeguarding her own people's territory and people, even by what would be considered by most races morally questionable means, Sylvanus just might be saving the entire Horde from Alliance aggression.

Now you're giving her way too much credit. She is not a saint nor a savior of any kind.

[Saturo]

By safeguarding her own people's territory and people, even by what would be considered by most races morally questionable means, Sylvanus just might be saving the entire Horde from Alliance aggression.

Now you're giving her way too much credit. She is not a saint nor a savior of any kind.

And from whose angle are you looking? Her people see her as a savior, and I'm pretty sure that the rest of the horde understand the necessity of having a stronghold and a port in the Eastern Kingdoms. Saint, of course not. But savior, definitely.

[Vephriel]

And from whose angle are you looking? Her people see her as a savior, and I'm pretty sure that the rest of the horde understand the necessity of having a stronghold and a port in the Eastern Kingdoms. Saint, of course not. But savior, definitely.

^

[Royi]

Now you're giving her way too much credit. She is not a saint nor a savior of any kind.

And from whose angle are you looking? Her people see her as a savior, and I'm pretty sure that the rest of the horde understand the necessity of having a stronghold and a port in the Eastern Kingdoms. Saint, of course not. But savior, definitely.

^

^^

There fixed it for you Veph too

[Cerah]

By safeguarding her own people's territory and people, even by what would be considered by most races morally questionable means, Sylvanus just might be saving the entire Horde from Alliance aggression.

Now you're giving her way too much credit. She is not a saint nor a savior of any kind.

I never said she was a saint, or that she was purposefully saving the entire Horde. Just that by saving her own people, the Horde benefited as a consequence. It might not be an intentional consequence, but a consequence nonetheless.

And from whose angle are you looking? Her people see her as a savior, and I'm pretty sure that the rest of the horde understand the necessity of having a stronghold and a port in the Eastern Kingdoms. Saint, of course not. But savior, definitely.

^ Thank you, Saturo

[Royi]

that by saving her own people, the Horde benefited as a consequence.

Doesn't saving her own people make her a savior? Maybe I'm reading too much into this

Sav´ior Pronunciation: sāv´yẽr
n. 1. One who saves, preserves, or delivers from destruction or danger.

[Turgus]

Sonata wrote:
What second front? Unless you think the farmers were actually commanded to attack from the rear, they started to attack on their own cause the Forsaken killed innocent farmers and turned them to Forsaken, do tell me that is justified. I'm okay with corpses and spirits bound but LIVE people!

The farmers were part of the militia, minutemen to be precise, which is kind of like the Army Reserve, so no they were not attacking on their own.
And yes, regardless of how little of a threat those "farmers" were to the undead fortified camp, they were a part of a two prong attack.
AKA why <insert player character name> had to deal with them in the quest line to keep the camp from being overran.

Sonata wrote:Actually I looked into the questchain and they had a talk and agreed to set their brotherhood aside and fight eachother in the name of their respective factions but take it lightly since they are friends.They wanted to fight eachother honorably not like what Sylvanas did.

Regardless of what reason they did it, out of friendship or whatever, it doesn't matter.
They are at war, this isn't tag, or capture the flag.
They were both commanders, responsible to the soldiers under them, and to their commanders above them.
But they let their personal feelings for each other influence their leadership decisions.
Or should I say, one of them.

Thassarian used their "agreement" to put Koltira at a disadvantage, and try to turn the battle back around in his favor.
It didn't end well, but as an enemy commander I have to respect Thassarian.
Koltira on the other hand...

Sylvanas reacted like any leader would after being betrayed by a subordinate commander in wartime, her methods on the other hand might have been a bit different than most.
Labeling her because she took away his free will by calling her the "Lich Queen" is inauthentic, and a compete misrepresentation of the events that took place.

By safeguarding her own people's territory and people, even by what would be considered by most races morally questionable means, Sylvanus just might be saving the entire Horde from Alliance aggression.

Now you're giving her way too much credit. She is not a saint nor a savior of any kind.

And from whose angle are you looking? Her people see her as a savior, and I'm pretty sure that the rest of the horde understand the necessity of having a stronghold and a port in the Eastern Kingdoms. Saint, of course not. But savior, definitely.

I couldn't have said it better myself.

[Lazuly]

All of that was before the power went to her head. Somebody has to stop her madness. It is against nature to rise people from the dead, and you can argue with that, and She Will Be Judged.

This is Laz's view as well. She felt sorry for the Undead before, since they couldn't help what they were... but now that they're going around making MORE of themselves and using the Lich King's own power... they are becoming a threat. Unlike other races, there will be no end to them if they make more undead whenever they like, using corpses that did not consent to being raised. Its a type of assault to do that to someone, and the fact that they themselves were raised in such a manner was one of the things that the Forsaken HATED the Lich King for! But now they do it to others?! Bad karma.

Also, the disturbing attitude that many of them have, to view feelings like love as worthless or something to be removed from themselves. It's worrisome.