The Lich Queen

[Gelannerai]

Not to mention the rampant speculation that she knew about what Putress was doing, and may have even clandestinely sanctioned it. Despite the fact that Blizz has tried to continually give the impression that it was Varimathras and Putress acting in concert to achieve gains for the Burning Legion.

What she sanctioned was the creation of Putress' plague. She probably didn't tell him to use it at the Wrathgate, but that's not the point. The point is, she had her apothecaries creating that plague exactly for the purpose that it was used for at the Wrathgate. The only thing that Putress is really guilty of is beating her to the punch. The Forsaken imo are not all inherently evil, but Sylvanas herself is a different story. If it feels better, she could also be insane, but then again what's the difference between evil and dangerously insane in this game?

Really, I can see her becoming a raid boss at some point, maybe not in Cata but definitely in the xpac after. She'll probably be caught raising/having raised old heroes of the Horde and Alliance (like Grom), because hey, who's going to stop her?

[Victorelle]

Lich Queen = crazy Jania?

[Ijomi]

I don't see anyone else in the Horde or Alliance raising the dead to contribute to the war effort. And even in war there is such a thing as "war crimes".
Yes, many times you are thrown into situations you have no control over. Act of God and all that. The thing is, the situation HERE was the direct decision of one person.

The disassociation of this argument is disturbing, to say the least. "Sure, being brought back as an undead might suck". That's like saying "Sure, having a loved one murdered might suck".

And yes, I am considering the Forsaken point of view in this....since they didn't care for it when it happened to them, either.

"Here, I'm going to act against your free will now to kill you, but you can totally have it back once we raise your corpse to bolster our ranks. What, you don't want to be raised? Oh, oopsie."

As even Garrosh was able to perceive, she's become no better than the Lich King.

Unless you really want to debate his was a war effort too. After all, Lady Deathwhisper tried to preach an equally convincing sermon.

I'm afraid the Dark Lady done goofed beyond fixing, here.

[Gelannerai]

Maybe Blizz is sewing the seeds of Koltira eventually leading a rebellion and becoming the new leader of the Forsaken? I'd dig it.

[Ijomi]

Yeah, Sylvanas was clearly interested in his free will.

[Lisaara]

Maybe Blizz is sewing the seeds of Koltira eventually leading a rebellion and becoming the new leader of the Forsaken? I'd dig it.

I can see that, definitely. Sylvanas is going bonkers(or atleast heading in that direction) and i think Koltira would become the new leader of the forsaken.

Ooh now you've got me giddy!

[Setanta]

No one else in the horde needs to bring back anyone as undead. They all have the capability to bolster their population through procreation.

[Ijomi]

And again, raising people they killed for the cold purpose of prolonging their goals can hardly be compared to giving life to a child, in -any- sense.

The Forsaken are not a separate species, though some have become so warped they speak as though they are. The races they are part of continue still. All they are seeking to continue HERE is their various agendas.

They were tragic victims, and sadly all that was left to them is how they handle this borrowed time. Sir Bartholomew The Revered or Captain Rupert are far better examples for the Forsaken than Sylvanas.

[Lisaara]

And again, raising people they killed for the cold purpose of prolonging their goals can hardly be compared to giving life to a child, in -any- sense.

The Forsaken are not a separate species, though some have become so warped they speak as though they are. The races they are part of continue still. All they are seeking to continue HERE is their various agendas.

They were tragic victims, and sadly all that was left to them is how they handle this borrowed time. Sir Bartholomew The Revered or Captain Rupert are far better examples for the Forsaken than Sylvanas.

Also, raising a child takes years, compared to raising a corpse.

[Turgus]

Well of course we don't see any other faction creating Forsaken, that would be like saying, "I don't see anyone recruiting and training trolls except the trolls!"

But what factions do the following?

Slaughtered innocents? Check.
Enslave demons? Oh, we got that.
What about draining, trapping and destroying souls? Yup, got those too.
What about turning themselves into demons themselves? Yup, got those as well.
What about spreading diseases and plagues? Yup those too.
What about raising ghouls to serve them? Check.

Whats that? Warlocks? Deathknights?

I find it obsurd that people would even try to hold the high ground in a game like this, where the very action that is being chastised is practiced by each of the races.

[Ijomi]

"I don't see anyone recruiting and training trolls except the trolls!" is a grossly inaccurate comparison. Recruiting and training =/= murdering and raising from the dead. Apples and oranges. Much like the rest of the "checklist".

Warlocks are also by and large shunned for their practice, with good reason. Playable Death Knights were no different from the Forsaken in the sense they were raised to be obedient minions to Arthas....and even they are shunned now that they are free of him. I don't see the Knights Of The Ebon Blade looking to "make" new recruits. They know exactly how monstrous the act of their creation was, as do some Forsaken. Even the Forsaken who do NOT realize it set the morality bar by their attitudes toward their condition. They don't like it. In fact, they clearly despise the lot they've been dealt. So how can it be argued that somehow they are justified in inflicting it on anyone else?

They continue perpetrating the very crime that was committed on them to others, headed by their very willing and very unscrupulous Queen, who was not even above threatening a hostage with the Plague unless Crowley did as she wanted. That hostage was his daughter. Yes, Sylvanas is a noble soul, all right.

The only thing I'm afraid I'll be agreeing with on your argument is the ....for entirely different reasons.

[Turgus]

Really now? Gross inaccurate statement?
Did you miss ALL of my previous posts?

I made a statement that each of the races, and show me that I am wrong if I am, is using force, be it physical or coercive to gather troops and war materials for the War raging all over the place.
I even gave examples of when this happened in recent history here.
I compared them to being on a similar level as forcibly turning the dead into Forsaken.

Did I read a response that actually articulately explained any objections to this comparison?
What about my post about objective morality?
My post on the difference between peace time morality and war time morality?
My post trying to understand the term "natural" that everyone was throwing around and find out what people actually meant when than wrote it?

Nope.
Not a jot.

You discount my list out of hand?

Congrats, I can do the same to your post.
Your entire post is just a misdirection, a failure to take responsibility for the actions of each of the different factions.


"Oh we don't like our warlocks, we don't let them hang out with us cool kids because they use dark magic. Oh? Should we get rid of them? Stop them from preforming their dark rituals? Stop them from summoning demons? No! No! They come in handy with their demons and curses! Plus they can summon us too!"

"It isn't the same! The ability that I have as a Deathknight, to spread diseases, and raise mindless ghoul servants was forced on me, so its not like its MY fault if I use those abilities to kill people and raise them from the dead! Its the one who made me this ways fault! I am TOTALLY not like those Forsaken! No Way!"

"We don't slaughter innocents, nope that something the Forsaken does. Whats that Concentration Camps? Torture? Slavery? Genocide? We haven't done any of those either! Not ever!"



Please... If it wasn't so sad, I would be laughing at the absurdity of it all.

[Vephriel]

This is always such a hostile topic of conversation. -.-

I love Sylvanas, and I adore my Forsaken. They're my favourite race in WoW.

I know they're not everyone's though. Honestly, no one would ever change my opinion of her or the Forsaken, and I know I can't change the opinion of someone against them. It's fun to debate and toss ideas back and forth, but when the discussion starts to turn into an argument, and then to personal attacks against the people partaking in it, I just don't see the point.

Some love her, some hate her. We've all said our sides. Can we stop fighting about it now?

[Lisaara]

This is always such a hostile topic of conversation. -.-

I love Sylvanas, and I adore my Forsaken. They're my favourite race in WoW.

I know they're not everyone's though. Honestly, no one would ever change my opinion of her or the Forsaken, and I know I can't change the opinion of someone against them. It's fun to debate and toss ideas back and forth, but when the discussion starts to turn into an argument, and then to personal attacks against the people partaking in it, I just don't see the point.

Some love her, some hate her. We've all said our sides. Can we stop fighting about it now?

I've noticed this as well. Sylvanas seems to rile heated flames......and causes us to fight. It's why I hate whenever she's brought up.

[Turgus]

For a while I had my hopes up.
The conversation on this thread made me want to get involved.

I actually thought that I might find someone who can actually articulate what they believed and why.
Why raising the dead was wrong, why Sylvanas was like the Lich King, why it was not "natural."

Unfortunately that was not the case.
The answers I got were very lacking.
Just statements without real proper comparison and explanation.

So I will leave this thread disappointed... like so many times before.

[Saturo]

I'm with ye Turgus. All we get tossed at us is pseudo-religious stuff like "not natural!", which frankly is pretty prejustice.

[Ijomi]

The "gross inaccurate" -COMPARISON- was recruiting/training against killing/raising. Seems you're missing some key elements in my posts as well.

You brought up warlocks and Death Knights apparently as a justification for Sylvanas, which read like the old "THEY do it, why can't -I-?". If you really want to debate that, of course, we could fill up pages of lore for almost every race and class and despicable things they've done, and despicable things they consider despicable. Would it make any of it right? Likely not. And it would be missing the points of my posts, which were Sylvanas's actions, and Sylvanas's accountability, in THIS situation.

This has nothing to do with the Orcs goofing by taking in the blood, this has nothing to do with the Darkspear's previous habits of cannibalism, this has nothing to do with the Blood Elves feeding off M'uru.

This is about Sylvanas's actions, and Sylvanas's accountability, in THIS situation.

There are standards in both times of peace and times of war on the topic of morality, hence my statement on "war crimes". And she's just stuck her foot in them, the blatant hypocrisy of those actions aside. She crossed a line even Garrosh is not willing to cross, for all his hatred of the Alliance.

It is the Forsaken themselves who set the morality bar with this situation. They despise the fate that was inflicted on them. They are not happy about it. It's a bad thing. It's not about my personal "prejustice", or "pseudo-religion". It is these characters' own reactions to their condition. So their response is to....do the exact same thing to those still living. You fairly demanded such detailed insight into warlocks and Death Knights, yet you had no response whatsoever to that very glaring paradox?

Yeah, you aren't the only one who is disappointed, though you were spectacularly more rude about it. Good job.

[Vephriel]

I'm just going to go ahead and lock this thread, I don't think it's salvageable.