Time to face facts....

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Lisaara
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Re: Time to face facts....

Unread post by Lisaara »

Albain wrote:Personally ... I think the buffing of Kill Shot and Kill Command is a BAD IDEA, unless they make them painful for any other spec to use.

Because while these buff BM, they also buff every other spec too. (I may be annoyed that BM's 'signature shot' is available to Surv and MM, but theirs are exclusive to those specs and impossible for the others to get) And if kill command, for example, gets buffed enough - the other specs are going to put it into THEIR rotations, and result in another nerf to BM.

I'd like to see Kill Command become BM exclusive. Not just 'penalizing' other specs with a high focus cost, as they'll use it if it's worth it anyway, but pulling Kill Command out entirely from being useable by everyone and making it our final point talent instead of Tame Exotics. Make Tame Exotics our level 10 ability, move the 'four extra talent points' part to TBW or something similarly late to reach, and give us an exclusive signature shot.

This will make balancing BM versus the other two specs much easier, as now they don't need to balance THREE specs' usage of Kill Command. It can be freely tweaked with scaling without worrying about 'will surv or marks put it into THEIR rotations now? Is this unbalanced?'.
I'm gonna have to say NAY on this. KK is not the BM Trademark. The BM trademark is Bestial Wrath. So KK is needed for all three specs.

also NAY to level 10 exotics. That would cause a lot of QQ and problems. Plus in a roleplay perspective(which Blizzard is keeping in mind), there is NO WAY a novice beast master could tame a beast such as a corehound. You have to work towards it. You have to train and learn the ways of normal beasts before being ready to tame corehounds or devilsaurs.

Now lets PLEASE not turn this into another debate topic that isnt even about the OP's post. We already had a topic like this and I think it got locked because people got too vicious. Let's leave that dead horse alone. :)
Last edited by Lisaara on Sat Jan 08, 2011 7:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Time to face facts....

Unread post by Albain »

Taluwen wrote: I'm gonna have to say NAY on this. KK is not the BM Trademark. The BM trademark is Bestial Wrath. So KK is needed for all three specs.

also NAY to level 10 exotics. That would cause a lot of QQ and problems. Plus in a roleplay perspective(which Blizzard is keeping in mind), there is NO WAY a novice beast master could tame a beast such as a corehound. You have to work towards it. You have to train and learn the ways of normal beasts before being ready to tame corehounds or devilsaurs.

Now lets PLEASE not turn this into another debate topic that isnt even about the OP's post. We already had a topic like this and I think it got locked because people got too vicious. Let's leave that dead horse alone.

Except devs call Kill Command our signature shot. And scale our DPS around this 'signature shot'. I didn't say anything about a trademark. I said a signature shot.

I haven't gotten vicious with anyone about anything. If you're feeling hostile, maybe it's you that needs to take a step back? :/

Edit: Also, given the OP's comment was a lament about BM's current abysmal DPS, I think I'm quite on topic. :/
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Re: Time to face facts....

Unread post by Lisaara »

Albain wrote:
Taluwen wrote: I'm gonna have to say NAY on this. KK is not the BM Trademark. The BM trademark is Bestial Wrath. So KK is needed for all three specs.

also NAY to level 10 exotics. That would cause a lot of QQ and problems. Plus in a roleplay perspective(which Blizzard is keeping in mind), there is NO WAY a novice beast master could tame a beast such as a corehound. You have to work towards it. You have to train and learn the ways of normal beasts before being ready to tame corehounds or devilsaurs.

Now lets PLEASE not turn this into another debate topic that isnt even about the OP's post. We already had a topic like this and I think it got locked because people got too vicious. Let's leave that dead horse alone.

Except devs call Kill Command our signature shot. And scale our DPS around this 'signature shot'. I didn't say anything about a trademark. I said a signature shot.

I haven't gotten vicious with anyone about anything. If you're feeling hostile, maybe it's you that needs to take a step back? :/

Edit: Also, given the OP's comment was a lament about BM's current abysmal DPS, I think I'm quite on topic. :/
Even so, people don't think of BM with KK. If they see big red angry beast, they know "Oh! A BM!" since other specs cannot use it.

I never said you did. You may need to reread my comment. I said in the past, it's turned vicious and had threads get locked. It's best not to bring it up.

IMHO, your comment had nothing to do with what we have currently, live. All it did was bring up a dead horse. Wasn't trying to be mean. Just trying to prevent another topic getting out of control before it actually happens. So I was asking you nicely to leave those suggestions to rest before it makes this topic explode. But if you wish to make it hostile and attack me for asking nicely, then that's your prerogative. :) I can say I atleast tried to prevent it.

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Re: Time to face facts....

Unread post by Albain »

Taluwen wrote: Even so, people don't think of BM with KK. If they see big red angry beast, they know "Oh! A BM!" since other specs cannot use it.

I never said you did. You may need to reread my comment. I said in the past, it's turned vicious and had threads get locked. It's best not to bring it up.

IMHO, your comment had nothing to do with what we have currently, live. All it did was bring up a dead horse. Wasn't trying to be mean. Just trying to prevent another topic getting out of control before it actually happens. So I was asking you nicely to leave those suggestions to rest before it makes this topic explode. But if you wish to make it hostile and attack me for asking nicely, then that's your prerogative. :) I can say I atleast tried to prevent it.
Wow, you're still going on about the hostility thing and I'm not being hostile or attacking anyone. :| I AM getting frustrated at what looks awfully like baiting to me though. IMHO, you saying things like this will make a thread explode far faster than me suggesting a few things that might improve BM DPS in a 'BM DPS is terrible' thread.

But before [insert any given problem here] happens, if you want to discuss this further, I have a PM button.
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Re: Time to face facts....

Unread post by Lisaara »

Albain wrote:
Taluwen wrote: Even so, people don't think of BM with KK. If they see big red angry beast, they know "Oh! A BM!" since other specs cannot use it.

I never said you did. You may need to reread my comment. I said in the past, it's turned vicious and had threads get locked. It's best not to bring it up.

IMHO, your comment had nothing to do with what we have currently, live. All it did was bring up a dead horse. Wasn't trying to be mean. Just trying to prevent another topic getting out of control before it actually happens. So I was asking you nicely to leave those suggestions to rest before it makes this topic explode. But if you wish to make it hostile and attack me for asking nicely, then that's your prerogative. :) I can say I atleast tried to prevent it.
Wow, you're still going on about the hostility thing and I'm not being hostile or attacking anyone. :| I AM getting frustrated at what looks awfully like baiting to me though. IMHO, you saying things like this will make a thread explode far faster than me suggesting a few things that might improve BM DPS in a 'BM DPS is terrible' thread.

But before [insert any given problem here] happens, if you want to discuss this further, I have a PM button.
Sorry but I'm not baiting. I was just asking nicely to not beat the dead horse thats been beaten many times before. If you think I'm baiting, I hesitate to guess what you think trolling is.

ANYWAY! Back to the OPs original topic as it should have been.

BM isn't really confusing at all. It's actually quite awesome. My rotation is basically this:
Hunters Mark > Serpent Sting > Bestial Wrath > Kill Command > Arcane Shot > Steady Shot until enough focus for KK > Rinse and repeat as cooldowns come up

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Re: Time to face facts....

Unread post by Albain »

Taluwen wrote: Sorry but I'm not baiting. I was just asking nicely to not beat the dead horse thats been beaten many times before. If you think I'm baiting, I hesitate to guess what you think trolling is.

ANYWAY! Back to the OPs original topic as it should have been.

BM isn't really confusing at all. It's actually quite awesome. My rotation is basically this:
Hunters Mark > Serpent Sting > Bestial Wrath > Kill Command > Arcane Shot > Steady Shot until enough focus for KK > Rinse and repeat as cooldowns come up
I'll take this to PM. <3
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Re: Time to face facts....

Unread post by Larkspur »

Actually, I'mma hop in and agree with Albain, based on what I've been seeing so far. Something's gotta change with how BM accesses/uses KC compared to the other specs, or the other specs are going to reap the benefit of using KC as well and everyone's going to remain in position respective to each other.

I do think it'll be as easy as making KC prohibitively expensive unless you're BM, and adjusting Killing Streak to actually award us with free Kill Commands to match the other "Streak" talent it's modeled on (see: Hot Streak).

Or make it work more like LnL. That would be nice, too.

And, uh. I'm not really buying the "you need TIME to master exotic beasts!" argument after they started handing felguards to demonology warlocks at level 10. XD If they don't want low-level beastmasters training devilsaurs at level 10, that's as easy as not putting in any accessible exotics except worms and spirit beasts and chimeras until level 50. They could reasonably do that, too; the lowest-level exotics already in the game are worms and chimeras, and there are a number of low-level ghost animals that already tameable that could be converted to spirit beasts. (I'm thinking of the haunted-looking jade owls and the ghost sabers.) If they want to maintain the "rare only" mystique of the spirit beasts, then it's worms and chimeras until you hit level 35 and can tame your first silithids. Then you get devilsaurs at 48 (or whatever) and corehounds at 60, and so on. It's not all that unlike our access to exotics now; you don't actually unlock the ability to tame them until 69, but even after that you can't get a spirit beast until you hit the level the first one becomes tameable (Arcturis, 74). Shale Spiders aren't available until 83.

Besides, while devilsaurs are large and menacing and awesome, worms--especially the old-world worms--are not the most fearsome and terrifying of exotic pets.
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Re: Time to face facts....

Unread post by Albain »

(Well heck, since I'm being called hostile and attacking already..

Helpful hint: the op's post was nothing about shot rotations, so going 'ANYWAY! Back to the OPs original topic as it should have been.' and then talking about shot rotations and how unconfusing BM is is also .. offtopic. Topic was BM's poor DPS.

What's good for the goose is good for the gander, etc.)
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Re: Time to face facts....

Unread post by Larkspur »

Albain wrote:(Well heck, since I'm being called hostile and attacking already..

Helpful hint: the op's post was nothing about shot rotations, so going 'ANYWAY! Back to the OPs original topic as it should have been.' and then talking about shot rotations and how unconfusing BM is is also .. offtopic. Topic was BM's poor DPS.

What's good for the goose is good for the gander, etc.)
(I admit to lol'ing a little.)
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Re: Time to face facts....

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Look guys, SV and MM aren't going to seriously use Kill Command in their rotations. Have you played SV? Have you played MM? I played both up to level 60 and outside of a few instances where I chose KC over a shot, I have NOT used it reliably in a rotation. Why? Because Kill Command is SO focus heavy- 40 focus from a pet that is weaker than a BM pet, where as that focus could go into a shot that does MORE damage than Kill Command, or focus on weaving my shots.

Or have you played SV? SV is as focus heavy as a rock in water. You can't really tell me you believe SV are going to drop Arcane Shot for Kill Command, right?

Seriously?

And Taluwen, TBW was our TBC button but not anymore. Being nerfed so heavily ontop of only lasting 10 seconds [and not even the full 18 for pets or even being able to glyph for 15 second duration total or whatnot] has KILLED tbw. It's our signature but it's as poor as dirt. And Exotics at lv 10 [or atleast level 60 ffs] would work with BM too.

Because BM isn't about just TBW or only spamming KC or just exotics, it's about TBW and the pet [Exotics] and it's always been pet heavy.

But yeah fine, remove KC from SV and MM, they don't really use it and outside of a few instances in pvp I don't see why they really should use it.
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Re: Time to face facts....

Unread post by Albain »

Surv is my primary spec these days thanks to BM's painful lacking, so I can safely say 'yes I play it and know how it works'.

If the damage to Kill Command is buffed enough, and EJ says 'theoretically this will cause higher DPS, if you weave it in', literally hundreds of thousands of Surv and Marks hunters will promptly begin using it. It wouldn't need to be proved, it would have to just be THEORETICALLY better and they'd do it. And this isn't impossible either. EJ has pushed things such as diseaseless DKs and dual wielding Unholy before just for a bit higher numbers.

If KC suddenly offers higher numbers, it will be evaluated by both specs, and if there's any upsides whatsoever even theoretically in pristine ideal circumstances, people will begin swearing by it even as Marks and Surv. It's happened before with other specs and other abilities.
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Re: Time to face facts....

Unread post by Albain »

Actually. I made a thread on the official forums about this very thing, and more than welcome posters there instead of here. I'd hate to tenderize a chunk of meat further in this thread.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic ... 012?page=1

There's been at least one really nice suggestion there that I like quite a bit, that Larkspur STOLED from the thread. /Stole/.
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Re: Time to face facts....

Unread post by Larkspur »

Hey! That suggestion is what made me realize (very slowly, because I have the brain rot) that they'd modeled Killing Streak on Hot Streak, down to the talent name, but didn't keep most of what made the Hot Streak talent desirable (i.e., clearing cooldowns and making the ability instantly usable with none of its regular limitations and no cost).
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Re: Time to face facts....

Unread post by Albain »

STOLE IT.

Edit: E_E I'm watching you!

Edit Edit: Also that reminds me I need to ask you if Kren did your spear ench-- why am I not just asking on AIM sec
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Re: Time to face facts....

Unread post by Ryai »

I thought the Diseaseless DK was actually for tanking because they had little time to really set their diseases up to tank- ontop of the added crap thrown into the mix?

Anyways actually, I welcome EJ pushing this now, you know why? Because when MM and SV are prioritizing a pet attack over their shots, OVER their normal rotation, Blizzard is gonna be like hey now kids, bad, no- and nerf it for them and buff it for BM only. If they could make it where MM would want Steady over Cobra, they're gonna do the same where only BM will want KC over Arcane.
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Re: Time to face facts....

Unread post by Albain »

According to one Survivalist over in the other thread, some surv hunters already work it into their rotations. It's fairly ... uh. ... Situational might be the right word, but, to quote him:

'Technically Surv does use Kill Command when the occasion calls for it. With Arcane Shot still on the LnL proc if you are about to cap on focus after you fire your first Explosive Shot during an LnL proc, it is actually better to drain some of that off with a Kill Command rather than wait and let that focus go to waste, before going back to another Explosive followed by arcane then another Explosive.'

I never have myself, but I can see where it might be useful in that specific situation.

If they find a way to buff it for only BM, and not 'across the board baked into the shot itself', I will be absolutely delighted. :D!

Edit: Situational /was/ the word I wanted. Herp. Go dictionary powers!
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Re: Time to face facts....

Unread post by Larkspur »

Ryai wrote:I thought the Diseaseless DK was actually for tanking because they had little time to really set their diseases up to tank- ontop of the added crap thrown into the mix?
There's been two iterations of diseaseless blood DKs, actually.

One was Way Back When at the beginning of Wrath, when it was better for blood DPS DKs to just ignore diseases altogether and use Death Strike to build death runes for lots and lots of Heart Strike.

The new one is for tanking, yes. But Outbreak means that it's not really necessary to ignore diseases so much as "diseases optional".
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Re: Time to face facts....

Unread post by Adam-Savage »

Albain wrote:Personally ... I think the buffing of Kill Shot and Kill Command is a BAD IDEA, unless they make them painful for any other spec to use.

Because while these buff BM, they also buff every other spec too. (I may be annoyed that BM's 'signature shot' is available to Surv and MM, but theirs are exclusive to those specs and impossible for the others to get) And if kill command, for example, gets buffed enough - the other specs are going to put it into THEIR rotations, and result in another nerf to BM.

I'd like to see Kill Command become BM exclusive. Not just 'penalizing' other specs with a high focus cost, as they'll use it if it's worth it anyway, but pulling Kill Command out entirely from being useable by everyone and making it our final point talent instead of Tame Exotics. Make Tame Exotics our level 10 ability, move the 'four extra talent points' part to TBW or something similarly late to reach, and give us an exclusive signature shot.

This will make balancing BM versus the other two specs much easier, as now they don't need to balance THREE specs' usage of Kill Command. It can be freely tweaked with scaling without worrying about 'will surv or marks put it into THEIR rotations now? Is this unbalanced?'.
No, There buffing bm to bring it more in line with marks and surv. Just questing and being sloppy with surv I've noticed a 2k dps gain. Making Exotics at lvl 10 is NOT going to happen so quit dreaming. Vast majority of the hunters do NOT think this is a good idea. There isn't even exotics at lvl 10 anyway. You don't run into any until mid 50's besides the silithids and after the white core hound really.
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Re: Time to face facts....

Unread post by Albain »

AdamSavage wrote: No, There buffing bm to bring it more in line with marks and surv. Just questing and being sloppy with surv I've noticed a 2k dps gain. Making Exotics at lvl 10 is NOT going to happen so quit dreaming. Vast majority of the hunters do NOT think this is a good idea. There isn't even exotics at lvl 10 anyway. You don't run into any until mid 50's after the white core hound really.
There's a whole lot of worms and chimeras (edit: And silithids) before 50 actually. The lowest level is 12. And it might be dreaming, re: exotics. I have no intention to STOP dreaming, as when you stop dreaming you stop living.

They're buffing BM by buffing Kill Command. For why this is bad, see the thread on the official forums.
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Re: Time to face facts....

Unread post by pengupuff »

I get why buffing Kill Command isn't going to save BM, and I also get that making Kill Command exclusive to BM is also a bad idea. I wonder how it would work out if a talent on the BM tree was altered to allow for speccing into "Improved Kill Command" or something like that. It might help solve the KC issues.

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