New vs. Old wailing Caverns

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Re: New vs. Old wailing Caverns

Unread post by Lisaara » Mon Apr 11, 2011 2:30 am

evil950510 wrote:Lady Anacondra
Lord Cobrahn
Kresh
Lord Pythas
Skum
Lord Serpentis
Verdan the Everliving
Mutanus the Devourer

These are the bosses of WC. I can't think of how people are turning thier names in to sexual puns. Well Skum maybe.
Never underestimate some players from Moon Guard. Give us a few seconds and we can think of plenty.

Spirit - Topic is about Wailing Caverns. I was voicing I'm glad they took the maze out and put in an example. You might wanna go back and reread my comment instead of editing one yourself to make it something it isn't. :)

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Re: New vs. Old wailing Caverns

Unread post by evil950510 » Mon Apr 11, 2011 3:31 am

Yeah with enough time and thought about any one can turn something not related with one thing and turn into a perversion.

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Re: New vs. Old wailing Caverns

Unread post by SpiritBinder » Mon Apr 11, 2011 3:48 am

Edited and Removed By Spiritbinder ~ 18/04/11

Point made.
Last edited by SpiritBinder on Sun Apr 17, 2011 10:24 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: New vs. Old wailing Caverns

Unread post by Lisaara » Mon Apr 11, 2011 4:09 am

Spirit.....seriously, was that really necessary?

Wailing Caverns =/= Old School Worgen

Seriously, I'm not really sure why you're trying to be so rude and claim I was being off topic when clearly I wasn't. But whatever. I'll let a mod handle this. Here I thought you were a bit better than that. :/ Go figure if someone else mentions people are off topic, no one minds but if I nicely mention it, someone gets cranky. *sigh* Wasn't even mean about it either.

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Re: New vs. Old wailing Caverns

Unread post by evil950510 » Mon Apr 11, 2011 5:50 am

ENOUGH!! If you don't stop this topic will be locked and no one else will be able to give his or her own input to the changes to WC. I did not post this topic for you two to fight back and forth. Two people can agree to have a disagreement and not let it lead to childish name-calling.

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Re: New vs. Old wailing Caverns

Unread post by SpiritBinder » Mon Apr 11, 2011 7:10 am

evil950510 wrote:not let it lead to childish name-calling.
She started it!!!!

:lol:

But seriously, Sorry evil, didn't mean to hi-jack your thread, all yours once again :)

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Re: New vs. Old wailing Caverns

Unread post by evil950510 » Mon Apr 11, 2011 8:00 am

:headbang: thank you

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Re: New vs. Old wailing Caverns

Unread post by Miraga » Mon Apr 11, 2011 9:41 am

I haven't had many issues with WC because leveling at low levels is so fast now. I get in it through a random maybe once? I never ever get VC though. wtf? Anyway, I guess the change doesn't effect (affect?) me much since I plow through those levels already.

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Re: New vs. Old wailing Caverns

Unread post by Rikaku » Mon Apr 11, 2011 11:14 am

I for one will not miss old Wailing Caverns. I mean strategically, there was no need for the maze. All it did was cause me annoyances. Even though I knew where to go after 6 years of WoW, the new players I pugged with on alts did not. Which led to awful cases of getting lost: when someone couldn't make that one jump and fell down and had to make their way back up, when someone died (like the healer) and no one could rez so they had to run back... I can't count the number of times that I've lost puggers just due to annoyance of the mazes.

So while it was visually appealing, and pretty, it just was too much of a pain to warrant pugging it sometimes.


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Re: New vs. Old wailing Caverns

Unread post by Worba » Mon Apr 11, 2011 1:26 pm

Hmm. Overall I'm in favor of simplification / dumbing down / what have you when it comes to dungeons. I've seen way too many cases of things that are indeed interesting or clever but which nonetheless tend to either get skipped outright or result in groups shattering mid-dungeon.

A couple cases in point:

1) The Nexus. If you die midway through it can take forever just to schlep back to your group - sometimes they will take down the last boss while you're still en route. Which is even more annoying knowing that but for a few mobs you could take the "shortcut" by following the opposite path to the one your group originally took.

2) Oculus. Dragon flight. If everyone knows this stage great. If however you are new to this zone, expect lots of grumbling and very possibly a /disband or a /kick while you try to get yourself up to speed.

3) General. Grave yard runs - I'm just talking about getting from the dungeon to the instance portal. I think they've been trying to fix this but in some cases the route from GY to portal is either too long or too maze-ish. Back before the dungeon finder people had reasonable opportunity to familiarize with how to get from A to B but now that you are ported inside instantly, deaths can sometimes lead to further frustration resulting from GY problems.

Etc.

A lot of the fondness for these umm challenging little setups is held by players who suffered through them and felt a sense of accomplishment on figuring it out. I'm one of them, but on the whole I consider this a small price to pay for the drastically reduced queue times of the dungeon finder.

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Re: New vs. Old wailing Caverns

Unread post by Nachtwulf » Mon Apr 11, 2011 1:44 pm

I am not a gaming masochist.

I'm so tired of zoning into WC and having 3/4 of the group drop. I'm tired of having dummies who can't use the map function run around in circles in the maze portion for an hour and then end up skipping bosses.

I've been playing this damn game for five years. This is NOT fun for me. I've seen WC. I've seen WC so many times the place about makes my eyes bleed. There's nothing new here, and nothing that makes me want to spend three hours of my life in tooth-gritting irritation running around in circles in it.

BRD is the same way. Yes, I remember when 'let's do BRD' meant 'how does your schedule look for the next two six hour nights'... but that doesn't mean I LIKE it. I don't. I agree totally with the blue poster; it's time to strip out the dross and make the game more fun, not have bogged down places that originally were intended to make your leveling experience drag out even more.

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Re: New vs. Old wailing Caverns

Unread post by Lisaara » Mon Apr 11, 2011 2:24 pm

Nachtwulf wrote:I am not a gaming masochist.

I'm so tired of zoning into WC and having 3/4 of the group drop. I'm tired of having dummies who can't use the map function run around in circles in the maze portion for an hour and then end up skipping bosses.

I've been playing this damn game for five years. This is NOT fun for me. I've seen WC. I've seen WC so many times the place about makes my eyes bleed. There's nothing new here, and nothing that makes me want to spend three hours of my life in tooth-gritting irritation running around in circles in it.

BRD is the same way. Yes, I remember when 'let's do BRD' meant 'how does your schedule look for the next two six hour nights'... but that doesn't mean I LIKE it. I don't. I agree totally with the blue poster; it's time to strip out the dross and make the game more fun, not have bogged down places that originally were intended to make your leveling experience drag out even more.
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Re: New vs. Old wailing Caverns

Unread post by Wark » Mon Apr 11, 2011 3:39 pm

Hmm. Someone mentioned Sethekk Halls, and now that has me thinking...

While a lot of people seem to assume that making a dungeon linear sacrifices the "fun" of it, I'm not so sure. All the Auchindoun instances were linear, or very close to it, with nothing more than a few rooms big enough that you might zig-zag around them trying to get from entrance A to exit B (I am staring accusingly at you, Shadow Labyrinth). Not all of them were tuned well, of course; SLabs went on forever and a day, Mana Tombs managed to combine intensely irritating mobs with walking three miles to the end and then having to walk all the way back (also, lolescortquest, fffffff). Until they changed the constantly spawning/wandering minimobs in Auchenai Crypt, that place was a deathtrap for anyone with poorer awareness/reaction speed that a squirrel on an energy drink drip. And did we mention invisible mobs with a knockback. Who thought those were a good idea?

But despite their failing as loot piñatas... I would have to say those places are at least as flavorful as any of the old instances people murmur reverently about when discussion dungeons with a good feel. The quest givers, happy to dump lore in your lap as to WHY you were heading into one of these hell-holes (besides just "OMG SHINY") stood right outside. I wasn't necessarily a lore expert on the dungeons by the time I went into them, but just spending a few minutes chatting with the quest givers and reading their quest text had me pretty clear on the fact that Here There Be Dragons, and if I was anything but a coward I had better do my part to go in there and clean them out. No wild goose chases around the adjacent zone to pick up the scraps of "this is why you should care"; no giving up and wiking the place to find out all the lore they didn't bother putting in the game. And then I'd get inside, and it'd feel cramped and decrepit-Draenei and good lord there are bad guys EVERYWHERE. They felt like dungeons.

Now, there is no dungeon in WoW that can get me lost. I know LBRS better than I know the back of my hand, old Sunken Temple couldn't fake me out for more than one room, and I can get you from any point A to any point B in BRD. Way back in the day when you still ran dungeons with people you knew or you didn't run them at all, I never found a group that wasn't thrilled to have me grab the reins and say "nuh uh, THIS way. Trust me." I LOVED being necessary like that; still do.

But.

At the end of the day, those dungeons were exhausting. Even with my guidance people got lost constantly. They went on forever even when the stars aligned and nobody got turned around and separated. And if things weren't optimal... let's just say I still shiver when I remember the Maraudon run we started 'round 10 or 11 pm from one entrance (purple or orange), and I had to bail on the group when we reached the waterfall-- the midway point-- at 4 am. They kept going to Theredras, I went to bed.

And y'know, there definitely was something to runs like that. Long runs, the runs that ground you down and hacked away at all you had in you, until the only thing left was to cling to your partymates and press on. That Maraudon run introduced me to a dear friend, and if it hadn't been a 5+ hour Purgatory-style trip I doubt we'd ever have made it past a quip or two every 10 minutes, the way runs are done today.

On the other hand, watching people who can't read a map aimlessly mill around doesn't make a dungeon feel any more like a dungeon other than in the most literal sense. It does not add to my appreciation or enjoyment of the lore; it does not enhance my fun due to game mechanics. It just makes me grit my teeth and try to herd whatever (usually unresponsive, possibly on drugs, almost certainly just-as-annoyed) group I got in the right direction and pray for the pain to end. The game and playerbase is stacked to treat these dungeons as lootbags, and while I'd be thrilled if things weren't that way, it doesn't enhance anything to have 1/3 of a dungeon be switchbacks, endless multi-elevation loops, and other indications that the map designer hates the players.

I won't regret the "old" Wailing Caverns runs I did, and I'm laughing at how close this makes WC to a level 20 version of Trial of the Crusader/Champion-- two trash pulls between bosses instead of 5 minutes of afk time while the NPCs have their roleplay! But lord, that maze needed to go. Maybe they could have found a better way, but I'm satisfied by this solution.

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Re: New vs. Old wailing Caverns

Unread post by Lisaara » Mon Apr 11, 2011 4:23 pm

Oh my. Wark, that was brilliant. :) Totally agreed. You can know those dungeons in and out but....idiots will be just that....can bring a horse to water but cannot make them drink.

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Re: New vs. Old wailing Caverns

Unread post by Ellaran » Mon Apr 11, 2011 6:29 pm

"My Anacondra don't want none, unless its got buns, hon."

Sorry, had to ^^;

In a way, I'm glad the big maze section is gone. Personally I always felt that WC was just too big for being one of the earliest dungeons. Even if your group is speed-running that damn instance takes nearly an hour to finish, and we all know about the patience levels of many players. On the other hand, I like WC's look and feel, and the endless twisting routes helped the feel of a forlorn cavern filled with mystery and danger. After memorizing the layout early on I never got lost, and if anyone in a group was I'd be the guide.

My only complaint is the slimes who like to respawn after ten minutes or so, makes running back after a death really fun.
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Oh sweet Arceus, don't get me started on Maraudon. If Lucifer was contracted to make a dungeon for a video game, Maraudon would be what he would create. I practically jumped up and did the Macarena when it was split into three parts for Cataclysm.

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Re: New vs. Old wailing Caverns

Unread post by Makoes » Tue Apr 12, 2011 12:38 am

I'd rather a dungeon be broken into parts then parts removed.
with BRD, they added the mole machine to make getting to the parts much easier, Mara was broken into parts.

SFK sadly was my Altime favorite dungeon, werewolfs, skinning, the lore. Now, its a depressing undead place...Lich king expansion I had enough of undead by the end.

I wish they'd stop changing the dungeons. I dont know how to really explain it, but dungeons shouldnt be about the loot, they should be about the chellange and the doing. Its about playing the game, going on adventures, working together to conquer powerful foes.

Why add dungeon maps if all they're going to do is make then straight lines now?

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Re: New vs. Old wailing Caverns

Unread post by Chimera » Tue Apr 12, 2011 4:15 am

i like the dungeon maps... even i whos an expert at all those old world twisting mazes can get lost occasionally.. if they had the maps originally i dont think we'd be seeing these dungeon mazes going poof :3

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Re: New vs. Old wailing Caverns

Unread post by Wark » Thu Apr 14, 2011 5:20 pm

Ellaran wrote:
Wark wrote:Maraudon
Oh sweet Arceus, don't get me started on Maraudon. If Lucifer was contracted to make a dungeon for a video game, Maraudon would be what he would create. I practically jumped up and did the Macarena when it was split into three parts for Cataclysm.
In its defense, Maraudon was jam-packed with feeling, and the scenery can still knock me flat, and there's no irritating sense of "why the heck is THIS here, it makes no sense!" It also had the revolutionary idea that if they make a dungeon hellishly long, people should be able to get back to the later portion WITHOUT starting over every dang time. *pets the 20 Rods of Celebrian in the bank, coos sweet nothings to them*

But yeah. Hitting the LFG to find it was three pieces was one of those "angels burst out of the clouds singing a chorus" moments. Especially given what an absurdly large level range it spanned-- I swear it used to start at 40 and run all the way to 50 by the time you hit Theredras! Wah!

Makoes wrote:Why add dungeon maps if all they're going to do is make then straight lines now?
You're giving me flashbacks to the time I first entered Violet Hold to discover they'd provided an... indispensable map.

More seriously, there's several reasons. If the architecture has very few distinguishing characteristics or is especially symmetrical, it can be easy to get turned around. It makes giving someone distant to you directions significantly easier-- hands up if you've ever been in a group where, for whatever reason, you needed to tell someone how to get to you and they were far enough away to be off your minimap. (Lookin' at you, Zul'aman.) Pop open a map and bam, you can figure out routes without playing the "so where the heck ARE you?" game. It's also another way of interpreting the world, which... hmm.

You know how different people learn information most easily in different ways? Some people have to DO something before they have any hope of understanding. Some people need to read text. Others need to hear spoken directions/cues. Well, navigation also has several modes. The one I use most once I'm familiar with somewhere is essentially movement memory: I move here, then here, then here, etc until I reach where I want to go. This gives me absolutely NO sense of where things are relative each other unless they're side-by-side, and I can't really make up whole new routes, but I'm not going to get lost. In sharp contrast are maps. Maps don't give me that mental movie of here-here-here-here; they require a little more work to interpret, and I can get confused or turned around. When I'm using them I need to reorient myself relative the map CONSTANTLY. But what they accomplish is essentially giving me a railing to hold onto while I creep along, until the movement memory caches everything. Even later once I can get around, maps give me a sense of how distant things are interconnected-- plus they often equalize peoples' understanding of the world long enough to share meaningful directions. (If I turn left at the bromeliad because that's what I happen to remember, and some other person never even noticed the bromeliad, we're going to spend a looooooong time confused until we bust out the map and start using street/location names.)

The maps are less critical in linear dungeons, it's true-- but that doesn't mean they're useless. Especially when the "linear" dungeon features half a dozen switchbacks and loops, or multiple elevations.

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Re: New vs. Old wailing Caverns

Unread post by Wain » Fri Apr 15, 2011 4:38 am

The "maze section" of Wailing Caverns still exists, but it's been modified to a simple spiral, rising in altitude until there's that familiar point where you kill the bog lord boss and jump down the rock chimney into the pool below. Skum still exists, but he's been moved to just before that section, amongst the first ferns. The rare Deviate Faerie Dragon also still exists as I ran into it tonight.
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Re: New vs. Old wailing Caverns

Unread post by Wain » Fri Apr 15, 2011 4:43 am

Which reminds me... has ANYONE run into Trigore the Lasher (rare red hydra) since Cataclysm? Despite many passes I've never seen him once. Certainly never on the ptr. He spawns (or used to spawn) in the pools right outside the instance.
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