Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements (You won't like this)

[cowmuflage]

I don't see how this is bad. means non uber raiders can get raids done easyer now

[Saturo]

Yes. Non-raiders is the key-word. IMO, they're making the game too casual. There will be no real reason to make 25-man teams now. It will only be a matter of time now until we can buy "Samctification Marks" for emblems. I've been with game since it launched. I don't like what it's become. When Cata comes, I might even leave, just because of these changes. I liked the old times, with 40-man raids, CC, innovative boss fights and legendaries like Sulfiras and Atiesh. Oh, and the supposedly fishable Ashbringer.

I guess I'll just have to wait and see. Cata might very well break this game for me.

[Chrizesu]

There's still incentive, such as a quicker gain of what emblems are going to be. This is going to help servers like mine which don't have a lot of large guilds and depends on 10 mans for the server seeing content.

[Sarayana]

Yes. Non-raiders is the key-word. IMO, they're making the game too casual. There will be no real reason to make 25-man teams now.

I respectfully disagree. That attitude is exactly why there'll still be 25man raids. The players attitudes about what's prestigious and what's hard means more for progression tracking than Blizzard's mechanics when it comes to raiding. And think about it for a second... why would Blizz put so much effort into a part of the game that only the top 5% players get to experience? They want their players, all of them, to have the opportunity to kill the Lich King and see the content. I don't think that's unreasonable, I think it means they realise that their player base is much larger than the people that raided in Vanilla or TBC.

I had a long discussion with my husband about all these changes - he doesn't like them. Honestly, if you think they're game breaking then yeah, they are, for you. However, we don't know the whole situation, only Blizz does. Clearly, these changes aren't happening in Wrath progression, they'll be happening in Cataclysm progression, and we don't know how else they're changing raiding for Cataclysm. Case in point: when Blizz first announced the desire to make mana management an integral part of healing decisions, people were upset. Then we saw the class changes, which gave healers more spells to work with and make it clear that it'll be a question of knowing your spells so well that you make the right spell decision in order to excel. Suddenly everyone's a fan.

All I'm saying is, if you're unsure how these changes will impact the game, withhold judgment. They're not happening in a vacuum, they're part of a bigger plan that we have yet to see.

Side note, but I seem to recall reading that they want to bring CC back.

[Anansi]

Yes. Non-raiders is the key-word. IMO, they're making the game too casual. There will be no real reason to make 25-man teams now. It will only be a matter of time now until we can buy "Samctification Marks" for emblems. I've been with game since it launched. I don't like what it's become. When Cata comes, I might even leave, just because of these changes. I liked the old times, with 40-man raids, CC, innovative boss fights and legendaries like Sulfiras and Atiesh. Oh, and the supposedly fishable Ashbringer.

I guess I'll just have to wait and see. Cata might very well break this game for me.

The reasons to raid 25 man content -
a) Achievements
b) More loot, badges/points
c) Enjoyment of working with a full 25 man group and the sense of accomplishment and guild coordination
d) 25 man groups will bring more buffs which will allow players to get the most out of their performance whereas 10 mans will not bring all buffs
e) We do not yet know how guild leveling will work, it could be that guilds clearing 25 man content will get bigger, better or more guild perqs

Claiming this is the death of 25 man raiding is over-the-top sky-is-falling panic in my opinion.

As for buying Sancification Tokens, I doubt that very much. Can we by ToC Trophies now? No, we cannot. Can we buy ToGC Regalia tokens? No, we cannot. There is no precedent to believe Sanctification Tokens will be made purchasable.
Is the game being made more accessible? Yes it is. I'd wager that many people now in hardcore 25 man raiding guilds got into raiding only in Wrath because it made raiding more accessible, and that does not mean these raiders are bad players, but rather they got the chance they did not have before. Yes, more people will get the better gear, but the very best gear will, just as it has for all of Wrath, be only for the players who really have the skill to put in the work to get it (ie Heroic Mode 25 ICC and 25 ToGC).

Broken down, out guilds will decide what path they want to take, and we are free to leave if they opt for something not to our liking. We will also have the option to swap weeks between 25 and 10, or do some raids as 25s and others as 10s and so forth. It will definitely make gearing up alts a lot easier, and having a great alt experience looks like a pretty big priority for Cataclysm.

I think there's a lot of paranoia and elitism getting in the way of seeing what an improvement this new system is for the game.

[Sarayana]

I think there's a lot of paranoia and elitism getting in the way of seeing what an improvement this new system is for the game.

Amen.

[Gimlion]

You guys keep saying that 25 mans are the hard ones, and I respectfully disagree... Heroic is what makes them the hardest, and honestly, I believe 10 mans are the hardest, b/c there isn't as many buffs, CC, heals, etc. And you have to fit your group together like a puzzle. So IMHO, I don't think you guys are correct saying 25 man content is harder, just that you have to find the bodies in them more.

[Chrizesu]

You guys keep saying that 25 mans are the hard ones, and I respectfully disagree... Heroic is what makes them the hardest, and honestly, I believe 10 mans are the hardest, b/c there isn't as many buffs, CC, heals, etc. And you have to fit your group together like a puzzle. So IMHO, I don't think you guys are correct saying 25 man content is harder, just that you have to find the bodies in them more.

Agreed.

[Sarayana]

You guys keep saying that 25 mans are the hard ones, and I respectfully disagree... Heroic is what makes them the hardest, and honestly, I believe 10 mans are the hardest, b/c there isn't as many buffs, CC, heals, etc. And you have to fit your group together like a puzzle. So IMHO, I don't think you guys are correct saying 25 man content is harder, just that you have to find the bodies in them more.

Agreed.

I more or less agree with this too. I think the overwhelming attitude is that it is harder - but it's really just... different. Some fights do have more complex mechanics, but by and by, it's 10man scaled up to 25man - more boss HP etc. It is, however, more prestigious amongst players. Look at the fanfare over the 25man Lich King kill vs. the oh... what? Mention of the 10man kill?

There's a general attitude that 25man kills are harder, and I think they are simply because of the higher level of organisation and coordination that goes into the fights - I've seen many guilds progress faster in their 10man groups than their 25mans. Because of that attitude, I don't think 25mans will suffer under these changes.

[Anansi]

Yeah, the added challenge in 25 is, in my opinion, the coordination of the raid, not so much the encounters themselves. To me, 25 means you were able to successfully manage more people as a unit, but it has little to do with the difficulty of the fights themselves.

[Kalliope]

I'm tired of carrying people in 25s. Also of the lag.

Also, what Anansi just said.

Hence the "tired of carrying people in 25s" part.