Its time for PVP and PVE to become separated.

[AdamSavage]

Someone posted this on the wow forums, and I'm guessing it's a hunter using his Pally to post.


Arbutor:
Its to frustrating to have PVE blow up PVP. and its to annoying to have PVE nerfed because of PVP.

Its time that the system is changed for the better of both playstyles. First and Foremost, this game was not a PVE only game. This game is a PVE/PVP game and has been from the start. This game is about faction war just as much as it is as fighting the great and glorious villian. From day one a horde could kill an alliance if on the right server. But anyway who cares. PVP is here and it is in dire need of massive overhaul changes.

When trade chat and rbg teams are being replaced with "fail rbgs just come cap" you know youve hit a major problem. Classes are worse balanced than ever. Ranging from the super OP to the extremely unviable. So i'm just going to bullet point the ideas of reinheart here. I have long thought that these things should have happened anyway, But reinheart the russian obviously has a larger ability to put ideas out there than i do.

These are all what i believe should happen to the game. Some are ideas that agree with reinheart others i feel are a little better.

-honor gear free-

Honor buys PVP soulbound enchants and gems. This makes PVP botting go down because they cannot make a profit off of the items. It also gets rid of what i refer to as the "GY grind" the GY grind is what a fresh level 90 does. Full crafted gear? HA you are still missing major stats.

-Skirmishes-

They need to return. They were a very fun way to play and allowed solo play in arenas. I can't even tell you how many times i would play skirmishes on alts when they existed. They literally are fun and a training ground, Skirmishes must be solo q only. actual teams should still be in the ladder play.

Reinheart gives the idea they should also be rated. So you can solo q and be matched with players of similar Solo MMR. These solo mmrs can help them get into real teams for real achievements and ladders. I can't tell you how frustrating it is to just try and make a 3s team. You either get people who don't know how to play at all or you get people who won't play because you are not 2.3k rated. not much middle ground.

-PVE abilities do different things for PVP-

they hvae already done this for a few abilities and it doesn't need to be done to all of them. But when any ability just has to be banned from PVP then you should just go through and make it do something different for PVP. Tooltips would read. "for PVE" blah blah "for PVP" BLAH BLAH

Pallies should be able to use LoH is some way in Rated PVP, priests need to be able to use void shift, time warp needs to work in PVP too. No ability should be unuseable. Maybe it needs to be adjusted for PVP situations and that should be done.

This gets rid of the age old "OMG nerfed in PVE cause of PVP." this is Win/win

-Ladder sitting-

Sit on your rating? you lose it. People just hit glad ratings in week 1 then never play 3v3 again. They just cap through 2's arena and let that 3's team sit. Its really annoying because of low participation for the high ratings i can't even make a brand new 1500 MMR 3's team. I'll q into 2k-2.2k teams.

There really is no reason for holinka not to do these things. Atleast none that i can think of.... there is no reason why a PVE player should be against it as it means no more nerfs to PVE for PVP.

To me these are the best changes that can possibly happen.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/9309031335

[Lisaara]

I actually agree with this 100%. I'm so sick of PvE getting shafted every time because of PvP.

[AdamSavage]

Show your support, and post in the thread. The more the better, and hopefully draw enough attention to it. I already said my bit on it.

[Sar]

I actually agree with this 100%. I'm so sick of PvE getting shafted every time because of PvP.

Agreed 1000%

Sick of pve being constantly fked over because of PvP balance.

I think players are intelligent enough to know why abilities would work differently in different contexts.

GC et al really do their own playerbase a huge disservice when they claim players would only get confused by ability X doing different things in pve and PvP.

[Kalliope]

The funny thing is that games like LoL are based completely around PvP balance rather than PvE.

Perhaps it's merely a matter of perspective.

[Gimlion]

The funny thing is that games like LoL are based completely around PvP balance rather than PvE.

Perhaps it's merely a matter of perspective.

League also isn't a PvE game though. At all. It's strictly PvP. WoW, as both, needs to be able to be balanced (or as close as they can get) in both, which they are no where near.

Separating abilities that need to be different would work pretty well. An issue with it though, is that abilities will need to remain the same basic spell and keep their basic functions. Otherwise they'd end up with completely different classes and spells between PvE and PvP, and there'd be an even larger gap between the two.

[Kalliope]

The funny thing is that games like LoL are based completely around PvP balance rather than PvE.

Perhaps it's merely a matter of perspective.

League also isn't a PvE game though. At all. It's strictly PvP. WoW, as both, needs to be able to be balanced (or as close as they can get) in both, which they are no where near.

Yep, this is the true reason that there will never be a balance in WoW. Without a clear break between PvP and PvE, true balance is extremely difficult to achieve.

[AdamSavage]

I was talking to my friend who is one of the top guild on my server, and he says the only classes right now that are OP in PVP are enhancement Shamans, and locks. He said Locks need to be nerfed hard. They are just brutal in PVP. Funny how these other classes are OP and yet Hunters again and again get beat on.. The forums are full of cries for Hunter nerfs.

[Wain]

I was talking to my friend who is one of the top guild on my server, and he says the only classes right now that are OP in PVP are enhancement Shamans, and locks. He said Locks need to be nerfed hard. They are just brutal in PVP. Funny how these other classes are OP and yet Hunters again and again get beat on.. The forums are full of cries for Hunter nerfs.

Because it's probably all perspective. If you play certain classes then you suffer against certain other classes. While those classes hate certain other classes for the same reason.

That and luck. You may have a couple of really skilled and mean <class x> in your BGs regularly and you start to think they must all be like that.


Long before MMOs, back in the early 90s, we had MUDs. Text-based, but remarkably similar in overall mechanics. Even then people who played PvP ("PK" as we called it on our MUD) constantly agitated about class imbalance. But it was already obvious, way back at the start of online gaming, that what was balanced for PvP didn't always (or even often) balance for PvE. Our MUD's solution was to create an entirely new class system for PvP. You basically switched classes when you entered the PvP environment. They later reintroduced an arena for players to fight with their PvE classes, just for fun, with the rule that if you ever so much as whined about class imbalance you lost the privilege.

That was 20 years ago. And here we are having the same discussions!

[Nevish]

I discussed MMOs with a handful of fellow nerds today at a barbeque. Almost all of them were Final Fantasy XI veterans who had lengthily tested almost every MMO released in the last ten years...except WoW. When PVP was brought up, I told them WoW didn't keep its PVE and PVP content separate, which was met with unanimous groaning and "WHYYYYYY."

Hence how I recently learned that many, many MMOs keep PVP and PVE content absolutely segregated.

Now, I'm not saying that WoW is a failure by comparison. It's one of the longest running MMOs for a good reason, but as of late...they dropped the ball. I don't think they can keep this game running on the tightrope of PVP vs. PVE balance prioritizing. With the amount of growth classes have to achieve to reach level cap, the amount of ability bloat, the sheer magnitude of scaling numbers - Blizz needs to admit it's time to bite the bullet. They can't do this anymore and expect the players to be satisfied, not with subscriptions bleeding out the way they are.

They've already changed the game so much that it's unrecognizable to how it was four years ago. I think that they can certainly make room for more alterations if they want to remain competitive, and more importantly, keep the little respect they have left.

[Gimlion]

Yup, I agree. WoW is a PvE game and this is obvious just looking at the Summary achievements.
262 achievements to be earned in PvP while the rest of them (over 1700) are PvE-based. PvP was such an afterthought that it was slapped onto the game well after retail.

On top of that, the game has auto attacking. No real competitive PvP game has auto attacking. If Capcom can't even balance 8 characters, how do you expect to balance all these classes with all these difference specs? Answer: You can't.

League has auto attacks... And it's the most played game of all time. And it's the #1 game in all pro gamer circuits. And it has way more characters than wow has class specs.

Back on topic. The issue isn't pvp balancing, as League has clearly showed that it's very doable. It's balancing PvP ALONGSIDE PvE, which Blizz has shown to be very much a difficult task.