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For me personally, it's not the fact she burned Teldrassil.

Yes, it was an act of war, but clearly she wanted a war. (And don't say Alliance started it, as there's PLENTY of evidence to the opposite)

However, as I said, my issue isn't the fact Teldrassil burned.

It's the fact, knowing full well there were no more soldiers in Darnassus and it would be easy to occupy the world tree (to the point Tyrande tells the player to make sure the occupation is tolerable), knowing that there was at least 1000 civilian families in the tree, she orders it burned because one night elf triggers her. (And I only say trigger cause that's what the WoW facebook says)

It has absolutely nothing to do with burning Teldrassil for me. It has entirely to do with the genocide of innocent families with no warning.

The Horde quests all say you save civilians during questing, but the Alliance quests, which take place chronologically after them, all state the Horde swept through and killed all the civilians, suggesting Sylvanas's dark rangers/rogues killed everyone after the Horde player went through.

That is horrible, but it's not out of the realm of forgiveness. It's far from the first time a city like Astranaar/Lordanel was sacked. There's Theramore, Taraujo, etc.

However, the burning of the world tree, while thousands of its inhabitants are still inside of it, is unforgivable. That is my problem. Not with the burning of the tree, but with the genocide of innocent civilians for no reason but because one night elf pissed her off.

Also, can we acknowledge the fact Greymane's wife and the Alliance player just lets the Priestesses of the Moon commit suicide? >_>

This is what I think most people don't understand. Most people aren't mad that Teldrassil was burned. It was the fact it was burned while thousands of innocent people were in it with no way out.

If you support that, then there's something mighty wrong with you, I'm sorry.

Myzou wrote:For me personally, it's not the fact she burned Teldrassil.

Yes, it was an act of war, but clearly she wanted a war. (And don't say Alliance started it, as there's PLENTY of evidence to the opposite)

However, as I said, my issue isn't the fact Teldrassil burned.

It's the fact, knowing full well there were no more soldiers in Darnassus and it would be easy to occupy the world tree (to the point Tyrande tells the player to make sure the occupation is tolerable), knowing that there was at least 1000 civilian families in the tree, she orders it burned because one night elf triggers her. (And I only say trigger cause that's what the WoW facebook says)

It has absolutely nothing to do with burning Teldrassil for me. It has entirely to do with the genocide of innocent families with no warning.

The Horde quests all say you save civilians during questing, but the Alliance quests, which take place chronologically after them, all state the Horde swept through and killed all the civilians, suggesting Sylvanas's dark rangers/rogues killed everyone after the Horde player went through.

That is horrible, but it's not out of the realm of forgiveness. It's far from the first time a city like Astranaar/Lordanel was sacked. There's Theramore, Taraujo, etc.

However, the burning of the world tree, while thousands of its inhabitants are still inside of it, is unforgivable. That is my problem. Not with the burning of the tree, but with the genocide of innocent civilians for no reason but because one night elf pissed her off.

Also, can we acknowledge the fact Greymane's wife and the Alliance player just lets the Priestesses of the Moon commit suicide? >_>

This is what I think most people don't understand. Most people aren't mad that Teldrassil was burned. It was the fact it was burned while thousands of innocent people were in it with no way out.

If you support that, then there's something mighty wrong with you, I'm sorry.

^^^
THIS.

Do you think we could stop saying there are things wrong with people for having different views on an event in a video game of all things? Sorry but things are just at the point of starting to get too personal and it's kind of making me uncomfortable.

Sukurachi wrote:It certainly doesn't fit the morals of my Blood Elf brethren.

That reminds me of one other change I found a little jarring. If you haven't done the Nightborne Allied Race chain yet I don't want to spoil it (though it was the smallest of all the allied race chains), but it doesn't spoil much to say that at an early point an Alliance-linked visitor shows up in good faith in Silvermoon and is treated really obnoxiously by Lor'themar from the second of arrival. I found this a really odd change of character for the man who managed to remain unfailingly polite while enduring all kinds of vitriol from Jaina in Pandaria. Really bizarre. I don't know where they're heading with that, but there was no reason given for the change in character.

I didn't find that visit as "in good faith". In good faith would have been to talk, ask what happened, things like that not "Yo come back in the Alliance, the end."

I gotta kinda agree. She was really only there to try and talk him back into the chats that he'd started with Wyrnn. Then the whole mess with the Purge of Dal happened, followed with the events on the Isle of Thunder. To me, he came off super snarky towards Jaina, not to mention they were about to have a smack down right there before getting reminded a bigger threat then their squabbling was happening.

He had likely heard she went back to Stormwind with the Silver Covenant and Turalyon. He probably felt like he already knew what she wanted before she came out to Silvermoon.

I really just saw him as being a snarky douchebag towards her reasoning for visiting vs being terrible obnoxious. I don't see it as being outside of his character at this point considering how he kinda got burned when he was seeking asylum from Garrosh's bullshit only to be met with it on the other side before even finishing talks. It's made him way more cynical these days.

Myzou wrote: If you support that, then there's something mighty wrong with you, I'm sorry.

Could I ask for clarification on what you mean by 'support'? Because I, myself, understand why Sylvanas did it. She wanted to kill hope. Burning down Teldrassil, in theory, would do just that. Not only that, but she had seige weapons ready on that shore. I like to think that there was some idea in the back of her head that, if she needed to, she'd burn Teldrassil down to get to Malfurion. I can bob my head and understand that decision. That doesn't mean I support the murdering of innocent civilians. Understanding and supporting are two very different things.

I'm also going to add that I haven't actually seen anyone saying that the civilians being murdered is a good thing and that they support that decision. Not on here, at least, but I haven't braved the official WoW forums as of yet so I might just be blissfully unaware of that sort of thinking.

Krysteena wrote:

Myzou wrote: If you support that, then there's something mighty wrong with you, I'm sorry.

Could I ask for clarification on what you mean by 'support'? Because I, myself, understand why Sylvanas did it. She wanted to kill hope. Burning down Teldrassil, in theory, would do just that. Not only that, but she had seige weapons ready on that shore. I like to think that there was some idea in the back of her head that, if she needed to, she'd burn Teldrassil down to get to Malfurion. I can bob my head and understand that decision. That doesn't mean I support the murdering of innocent civilians. Understanding and supporting are two very different things.

I'm also going to add that I haven't actually seen anyone saying that the civilians being murdered is a good thing and that they support that decision. Not on here, at least, but I haven't braved the official WoW forums as of yet so I might just be blissfully unaware of that sort of thinking.

To my shock and disappointment, there are plenty of Horde fans that revel in and actually vocally enjoy being evil.
I wonder if they'll be singing the same song when we have SoO2 and Anduin kills Sylvanas, or if they'll revert to "It was all Sylvanas' fault! The Horde didn't mean to do anything! We're just trying to survive!"

Apparently, there are masses of information in the stupid novellas that Blizzard is trying to sell that cover all of these events and explain a bunch of stuff.
And of course, NONE of this is actually in the game.
I don't have time to read crappy fan-lit quality novellas that are thrown together in a few months' time. I also have no interest in it.

The information in these novellas SHOULD have been IN THE GAME. If it's crucial to understanding what's going on in the game, then it MUST be IN THE GAME.

Shame on Blizzard for the disgusting cash grab of sticking this material in novellas.

I have 0 issues with us Horde being evil.
I just want Blizzard to make up their mind is all :C

I have issues with the Horde being "evil".
Absolutely nothing in my people's story background makes us "evil".

Strangely enough, there are people on Mmo-C and on the Story Forums that are defending and supporting what Sylvanas has done; including the murder of innocents. I honest cannot comprehend how anyone could support her unless they prefer to play in an evil faction (which the Horde is being made into).

Some new lore from the novellas. When Sylvanas says "burn it" Saurfang is horrified and intervenes. He basically calls Sylvanas a monster and tells the orcs manning the catapults to stand down and disregard Sylvanas' orders.

They don't listen, and the novella ends with Saurfang watching the tree burn, flashing back to his actions in Shattrath during the rise of the Horde and deciding there's no redemption for him or the Horde, nothing can atone for what Sylvanas has done, and what he failed to prevent. He'll carry this guilt to his dying day "and he hopes that day will come soon."

Horde as an evil faction doesn't work unless Blizzard is also willing to make the Horde a faction to be eradicated.
If they are evil, there is no reason for anyone to be neutral. It won't be a clash of two different groups fighting for survival, it will be Alliance trying to destroy the bad guy. Every faction that isn't already on the Horde side would have reason to take the Horde down like they did the Legion or the Lich King.

If the Horde is indeed irredeemably and unapologetically evil, they can't also flop back to "b-but we're just the underdogs!".

That's the problem. Since BtS and into BfA, they are moving into villain territory, yet you still hear them talking occasionally about the whole underdog thing. They can't be both, yet the writing is trying to make them be both.

Valnaaros wrote:That's the problem. Since BtS and into BfA, they are moving into villain territory, yet you still hear them talking occasionally about the whole underdog thing. They can't be both, yet the writing is trying to make them be both.

Oh, don't worry. They'll be the evil villains for 3/4 of BfA while they steamroll over the Alliance.
Then when the Alliance retaliates and we get our inevitable SoO 2, they'll go back to being underdogs so that all the blame can be pinned on evil Sylvanas and the Horde can get away scot-free with little of meaning lost by them.

Pretty much :/

Also revealed in the novellas, Sylvanas has plans that only she knows, and it is suggested that they are dark plans.

Well, thanks to all the Alliance players for completely understanding how the Horde players feel.
It warms the heart. Truly.

Apparently, it was always Sylvanas' intention to burn Teldrassil. Her initial plan was to kill Malfurion and break the hope of the Kaldorei, but that didn't happen (due to Elune herself holding back the blade of Saurfang). So, she went to Plan B which was to burn Teldrassil.

If Plan A happened, she believed that the results would be in-fighting amongst the Alliance leadership, such as Genn turning against Anduin for wanting to save Teldrassil first instead of Gilneas. Her plan was doomed to fail from the getgo since, according to the Alliance novella, the Alliance leadership is very loyal to one another.

Qraljar wrote: Then when the Alliance retaliates and we get our inevitable SoO 2, they'll go back to being underdogs so that all the blame can be pinned on evil Sylvanas and the Horde can get away scot-free with little of meaning lost by them.

Just want to insert that Blizzard isn't actually giving the Horde a proper chance to react to what Sylvanas is doing, or else Saurfang or Baine would have done something. If Blizzard haven't written it in, then you can't just act as if the Horde are entirely complicit with what's going on. It's more like we're forcibly being written as aggressors without being given the opportunity to really react to the events in-game.

I would also argue that, if anything, the Horde does not get away scot-free. We haven't had a stable warchief since Cata, I believe, and every time something goes wrong with the warchief it's reflected onto the Horde as a whole. As someone who plays Horde, it definitely doesn't feel like I'm getting away scot-free with anything.