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You're saying the exact same things as I said, Fie. Nicer since I was angry at the time. Now I just shake my head.

I offered a wall of text with help albeit harsh and it was whined about in a similar matter. I doubt she'll listen. And no, that's NOT an attack. You didn't listen to me, and you didn't improve. You won't listen to her, and you still won't improve.

And that's my rant, and how /I/ feel. I hate when people are stubborn. I red line for people all the time. I write a lot of description for people. All the time. They can take it. It doesn't matter if you want it or not. Sometimes, people just want to help.

You get the wrong order at a fast food restaurant and go up to them and tell them there are pickles where there shouldn't be, and you didn't want cheese. They aren't going to take it personally. They aren't going to go to the back and tell their boss they are never making another cheeseburger again because someone complained.

But I am expending air again, since I already said this before, and Fie already said it above.

Frustrating. Very frustrating.

Fievre wrote:Crit happens.

If you ever want to get anywhere you'll have to get used to it. You'll get it from viewers, teachers, commissioners, and to not handle it well is to 1) lose potential customers 2) lose potential fans 3) lose the support of your peers and instructors. And trust me, it's just as irritating to get it when you can't handle it as it is to be the person taking time out of their day to offer to help you. No better way to waste your time than to give someone a critique (it's a lot more help to have the flaws of your work pointed out and grow from that than it is to surround yourself with people who feed you undeserved compliments) and have them refuse to learn from it.

By taking critiques and learning from them I went from this and this (LOL look at the far back leg) to this, this, and this. And those are just sketches.

Don't get all QQemo about it, go learn. Draw from references, too.

(Reading Crit's post, im guessing there is more quotes that would fit in this post but i dont know where they are or what they say so only Fie's is actively quoted even tho the other ones regarding this issue im addressing based on my knowledge of the situation)

I dont think, when it was critiqued, she was looking for people to critique it for her. I personally am offended when someone critiques my work and i didnt ask them to, which i have a great example of a little earlier in this thread when my stepdad blatantly blurted oh so nicely about how the bear i drew which wasnt even neccesary to the picture was god awful and looked nothing like one.

Though while i hate being critiqued without asking for it, if they supply references or tell me of places i can go research to find some easy guides and tutorials, i wont go ballistic on them since they are genuinely helping me and not just telling me flaws in my work that i already know exist. And to add on the reference note, i highly suggest learning from tutorials that delve into basic anatomy which can conist of just sticks and circles. Trying to trace a fully drawn or photographed picture wont teach you what you need to draw your own positions and suck you into an eternal loop of drawing the same position over and over (i just wanted to add this part in cause i find in just the first day of following tutorials, that my skill has improved AMAZINGLY). ^^

TL;DR, dont critique if they dont ask for it. If critique was requested, disregard my opinion on the matter ^^

Anywho, i guess that was sort of a rant, my other one is the pain in my side, my belt was too tight and my tummy has been hurting for a couple hours now, muscles in that area are cramped up from the strangling that i didnt realize till i tried to shift a bit in my chair

That is true. I don't really know all of what happened anyways. I'm irritated over what happened before, but I let it go.

I don't think it's too bad if someone suggests things that can be done. But that's a personal opinion. No one's perfect. I can understand it can hurt feelings, but sometimes I would take hurt feelings over not improving, if ya know what I mean.

Tutorials are awesome, yeah. Especially video ones!

Xakaal wrote:(Reading Crit's post, im guessing there is more quotes that would fit in this post but i dont know where they are or what they say so only Fie's is actively quoted even tho the other ones regarding this issue im addressing based on my knowledge of the situation)

I dont think, when it was critiqued, she was looking for people to critique it for her. I personally am offended when someone critiques my work and i didnt ask them to, which i have a great example of a little earlier in this thread when my stepdad blatantly blurted oh so nicely about how the bear i drew which wasnt even neccesary to the picture was god awful and looked nothing like one.

Though while i hate being critiqued without asking for it, if they supply references or tell me of places i can go research to find some easy guides and tutorials, i wont go ballistic on them since they are genuinely helping me and not just telling me flaws in my work that i already know exist. And to add on the reference note, i highly suggest learning from tutorials that delve into basic anatomy which can conist of just sticks and circles. Trying to trace a fully drawn or photographed picture wont teach you what you need to draw your own positions and suck you into an eternal loop of drawing the same position over and over (i just wanted to add this part in cause i find in just the first day of following tutorials, that my skill has improved AMAZINGLY). ^^

TL;DR, dont critique if they dont ask for it. If critique was requested, disregard my opinion on the matter ^^

Anywho, i guess that was sort of a rant, my other one is the pain in my side, my belt was too tight and my tummy has been hurting for a couple hours now, muscles in that area are cramped up from the strangling that i didnt realize till i tried to shift a bit in my chair

All good points, but to take it to a professional level means accepting critiques whether they're asked for or not because 9/10 times you won't really be given an option. Like I said, in classes you'll be forced to take them well, or else break down in front of all your peers which is probably more humiliating than some of them pointing out some things to improve on.

Also, if someone never asks for a critique, ever (which is the case here), they're severely hurting their skills. It's never fun to have someone rip your work to shreds, but sometimes it's necessary, and on top of all that there's nothing better than improving a TON and being able to overcome all the issues you previously would show. As much as I love to hear 'wow that's really good!' I also know to go ask people who take art more seriously than my family and closest friends. I'll ask the people I go to school with to look at it and give me feedback, because feedback is a necessary part of your artistic growth as well as the process of actually working for someone. When someone pays you to draw for them, you should be keeping them posted with where the piece stands and why it looks how it does. On top of that, seek outside feedback on the piece, too, because a lot of times commissioners don't care as long as it looks good to them (which, while important, doesn't always help you in the long run).

Like I said, sometimes your feelings get hurt and you'll want to just give up forever, but you can't. You'll be better off once you learn to go 'Oh I see where you're coming from,' and now that you recognize the problems you're more than able to try and avoid making the same mistake again. Don't expect instant results, of course, but don't just ignore it either. As an artist, your best friends should be critiques. They might be nasty, they might not, but just pick out what they see that could be fixed and practice fixing it. You should seek out critiques, not try to avoid them.

As stated, my DA link is up, you guys are more than welcome to go look at it and tear apart anything I have uploaded, even if it's just in spite because you disagree with what I'm telling you. It really is part of the growth process, though, and you'll be glad later on that you learned from it, even the nasty comments.

Quick edit because I overlooked something. Drawing from photographs should neverrrrr mean tracing from them, because tracing is bad news. I don't know if I have any pictures to use as an example because my sketchbooks are EVERYWHERE lol, but it's important to use reference photos. They'll teach you how the body moves. The tuts that turn everything into shapes are good, too, but they go hand in hand with photo refs. You'll also get more familiar with different proportions and the curves of body parts doing this. You don't even need to make it look exactly like the photo, you really just want to get your hand and eye moving together and to get the angles right. I'm almost tempted to make a video on it to explain the process (and show that making it perfect isn't necessary, because if I recorded it it would result in a terribad drawing). It's just another part of the endless ways to practice.

*Edit* Blah. Don't mind this post. It was stupid. Go go emotional break downs spawning terrible ideas.

Fievre wrote:All good points, but to take it to a professional level means accepting critiques whether they're asked for or not because 9/10 times you won't really be given an option. Like I said, in classes you'll be forced to take them well, or else break down in front of all your peers which is probably more humiliating than some of them pointing out some things to improve on.

Also, if someone never asks for a critique, ever (which is the case here), they're severely hurting their skills. It's never fun to have someone rip your work to shreds, but sometimes it's necessary, and on top of all that there's nothing better than improving a TON and being able to overcome all the issues you previously would show. As much as I love to hear 'wow that's really good!' I also know to go ask people who take art more seriously than my family and closest friends. I'll ask the people I go to school with to look at it and give me feedback, because feedback is a necessary part of your artistic growth as well as the process of actually working for someone. When someone pays you to draw for them, you should be keeping them posted with where the piece stands and why it looks how it does. On top of that, seek outside feedback on the piece, too, because a lot of times commissioners don't care as long as it looks good to them (which, while important, doesn't always help you in the long run).

Like I said, sometimes your feelings get hurt and you'll want to just give up forever, but you can't. You'll be better off once you learn to go 'Oh I see where you're coming from,' and now that you recognize the problems you're more than able to try and avoid making the same mistake again. Don't expect instant results, of course, but don't just ignore it either. As an artist, your best friends should be critiques. They might be nasty, they might not, but just pick out what they see that could be fixed and practice fixing it. You should seek out critiques, not try to avoid them.

As stated, my DA link is up, you guys are more than welcome to go look at it and tear apart anything I have uploaded, even if it's just in spite because you disagree with what I'm telling you. It really is part of the growth process, though, and you'll be glad later on that you learned from it, even the nasty comments.

Quick edit because I overlooked something. Drawing from photographs should neverrrrr mean tracing from them, because tracing is bad news. I don't know if I have any pictures to use as an example because my sketchbooks are EVERYWHERE lol, but it's important to use reference photos. They'll teach you how the body moves. The tuts that turn everything into shapes are good, too, but they go hand in hand with photo refs. You'll also get more familiar with different proportions and the curves of body parts doing this. You don't even need to make it look exactly like the photo, you really just want to get your hand and eye moving together and to get the angles right. I'm almost tempted to make a video on it to explain the process (and show that making it perfect isn't necessary, because if I recorded it it would result in a terribad drawing). It's just another part of the endless ways to practice.

Erm, i dont draw to be good, i draw cause i like it. I dont draw to be a professional :S Yes i do feel happier after reading tutorials about my artistic ability, but mostly cause i felt ready enough to show pieces of art to a community that consists of a very strong art driven population that is very supportive in nature, knowing that i would probably be critisized on my art despite not asking for it, but also knowing that they would try to suggest places to visit to help me improve. I dont post a lot of my art in places that im not comfortable with-- least till now since i feel that i have grown enough to handle it. Growing up i had a really hard time with people looking over my art, it was extremely uncomfortable and depressing when they didnt appreciate the art for what it was and commend my level of skill, taking into account i am entirely self-taught in basic drawing.

And yea definitely at the photo bit, i'll take examples of texture and minor outlines such as eye, nose, and mouth features from them since i have a hard time getting the concept of them down while i now have leg anatomy down pretty well so long as i remember the basic stick lines to place the joints, but definitely anatomy wise, i follow tutorials.

Senna-Umbreon wrote:You know what? Fuck it. I am leaving these fucking godawful forums. Call me a coward, call me anything you like. I don't give a shit anymore.

Ragequitting defeats the entire purpose. I may have missed something but I don't think anyone called you anything. I even offered to help you outside the forum.

Also @Xakaal (I'm too lazy to quote again, sorry D: ) everyone draws because they enjoy it, improving is just a natural part of the process. I can see where you're coming from I suppose, but a lot of times it really is most helpful to open yourself up to really harsh opinions on things. Maybe not in your case if you don't have any intention of pursuing it, but for anyone else who would ever consider it, it's important. I've been updating things to my facebook and deviantart more and more often in hopes of getting those opinions, and once I have a bit more and am drawing even more often I plan to (FINALLY) put my conceptart.org account to use, because most if not all of the people who usually respond are professionals, and every response is a critique. Usually in a 'I like this part, but try to change this and this and this' form.

I would just take the time to cool down for a while. If you think I hate you, I don't.

Anyhow. I don't think I have ever met a professional who hates drawing. That would be... Almost contradictory. On a different tangent, I hate when people discount photography as art. I've actually met a few people who do! And are completely stubborn about seeing it any other way.

Takes just as much effort for a composition on a camera as it does to sketch things out. In my opinion, anyways.

Critique without suggestion, back on topic, isn't anything but nitpicking. So if someone ever did that to you, Xak, it's on them. Those are the ones that are the most disheartening in my experience. I think we've all gotten those and have been upset over them.

I really dont think the rant thread is for picking on someone who comes here to rant eh? My rant.. My dog is snoring LOUDLY and wont be quiet. -.-

Oh man, conceptart.org. Tough crowd. But a good crowd. I actually wish there were more sites like that. I would rant about dA but that's another story. One of my pet peeves is undue praise. There is so much of that on there. I only glance at it once and a while now because of that. Got rid of my account years ago.

People were even like that in mine. Sometimes it's nice to hear something other than 'omg so good love lolol', you know? BUT. It is a good place to start for sure. And good for getting circles. It's just filled with a lot of... Immature people.

And maybe it's just me, but I also can't stand those.

(While it's SORT OF off-topic for this thread.. I'd.. Appreciate it if it didn't get removed if the option comes up. I wouldn't be surprised if the entire conversation before this does get removed, but.. Perhaps leave this one alone? It's sort of a rant-thing in a way. Though more on the "I realize I was an idiot, so here have a big detailed post on why and blah." side. Either way, I'd ask that if the option arises.. That this post get left alone and not deleted. This is something I need to get out there, and this is the only place I can think of to put it.)


Right. So. After thinking it all over.. I realize I overreacted and was honestly just.. Freaking out too much. For those that don't know the whole story, it is essentially this; I was super proud over a new picture of mine, someone noted me saying they had done a critique/redline of it, I reacted as calmly as possible, replying and saying how I appreciated the thought, but would have preferred if they had asked first. It was all sorted out in the end, and it was fine. However, during that.. I had made a post here, pretty much freaking out. In truth, I was VERY MUCH overreacting, and if someone hadn't replied to it, I probably would have deleted it as soon as I realized such.

Now, I'm not good at taking criticism. At all. That much was proven last year in my art thread here on the forums. I guess.. I did overreact then too. But it was the very first time ANYONE had critiqued my art. Ever. And it was rather harsh, too. Pretty much anyone who saw it would probably agree with that. Despite it, I pushed through the whole thing, and kept drawing. I've improved a LOT since then, but I will admit, I have a long long way to go before I'm even remotely good at anatomy/a multitude of other things. And I admit, there are problems with my so-called "masterpiece" of a picture. And it's hard for me to even think about the picture without breaking down over it now. The critique stung, especially after being so proud of the picture. But, I'm going to stand by my view of it as a milestone for my progress as an artist.

And you know what? Just like last time, I'm not going to let this stop me at all. I'm going to keep improving, and NOTHING will stop me. Ever.

(And.. Critiquer? I.. Sort of hope we can have a sort of truce. A lot of things you've said in this thread.. I have to agree with, now that I've calmed down and have a.. Clearer view of the whole thing. Granted, I think I'll always be a little bit.. Sore over that first incident, but in retrospect, it helped me, because it kept me going and kept me determined to get better. So, uh, thanks, I guess.)

I was never at war with you. I moved on pretty much immediately. Ticked off, sure. But it wasn't on my agenda to think about it over and over. I know I was harsh, and I was angry at the time. I had stated that in the following posts. I leave people alone when they don't take it well. If they take it well, I'll offer more help. That simple.

As for red lining, I personally think it's a better aide than talking. Telling someone it should be more triangle-shaped doesn't really get across what you need. The person could have asked first though, since red lines are more personal than just sending a message.

Critique does sting. But it doesn't mean you can't be proud. Best you can do is take it to heart and apply it next time.

ahhh the arts.

everyone can dabble in it

everyone thinks they know everything about it

so few are willing to put the hard work and years of training to learn the craft properly


I used to post on a music forum

On that forum, all people said was compliments

it was considered "mean" to critique in any way, shape, or form

the problem is, a lot of people were writing pure crap and expecting praise for it

if ANY of you are thinking of heading into any artistic discipline, be ready to have to confront idiots who know nothing, yet think of themselves as "Artists"

be ready to confront people who have "opinions" based on nothing more than their personal taste "I like this therefore it is good"

(I met one who thought Mendelssohn was the greatest musical genius who ever lived.. simply because he himself liked Mendelssohn's music. he had nothing other than "I like it" to justify his opinion which he clearly stated as an "Established fact". another insisted that music of the Classical period {Mozart's time was the "classical" period in music... don't confuse with "classical music", which describes, well ALL classical music, including contemporary classical music written last week} was the summit of all musical art and that everything afterward was garbage. his statement was based on nothing more than his personal preference. and his complete lack of ANY knowledge whatsoever about any music post-Classical period)

The arts: a world of brilliance and genius, of great ideas and of deep thought, of profound emotion and divine inspiration...

The arts: ALSO a world of dilettantes with no culture, full of pretense and ego, arrogant beyond belief and full of themselves...

You want to be an artist, regardless of the discipline? LEARN THE CRAFT.

NOTHING pisses me off like people who don't want to learn their craft.

I tried talking to the friend who supported the person degrading me because of my gender a few months back.

He completely ignored me. Just said "Hi." back and didn't really respond to any sort of conversation I tried to start.

I'm really starting to feel like I don't belong anywhere I go - In real life or even online on a game at this point.

Hell - I got told off by two crazy idiots on the Warrior forums ((Official)) and they're apparently proud one of the two got banned for literally telling me off in profanities.
I hate cliques. They do things to people.

Body, it is far too early for you to be pulling this this month. It's the damn -second.- What happened to structure and predictability? And now I'm hostile and picking a fight with just about anyone because the littliest things are setting me off and it's all just so infuriating.

Sukurachi wrote:be ready to confront people who have "opinions" based on nothing more than their personal taste "I like this therefore it is good"

/agree

Circular logic works because circular logic works*

Speaking of art... I did pretty much nothing but draw until age 11, and during that time lots off people thought I was a kid prodigy or something. Then all of a sudden around age 12 I started seeing other kids casually producing stuff far better than mine... and my interest waned a great deal, and I switched to writing. Similar experience; at first, people were very impressed, but then by the time I went into college I was once more surpassed by many of my peers.**

In my case (mine - not projecting onto anyone else here, so the reader may take something or nothing from this as they please), it was a combination of laziness, sensitivity to criticism, and last but certainly not least, fear of committing myself to the work needed to really become good at the art form, and the sacrifices needed to do so - all of these people surpassing me shared one common theme; they were willing to learn. I wasn't - I was so used to being praised just for doing the "fun stuff" (e.g. whatever subject struck my fancy - certainly NOT anything nitty gritty like still lifes, anatomy, etc), that I held myself back.

When I first entered college I went into the writing prof's office and asked to be placed straight into level 300 writing. He turned me down, and off I went in a huff. I finally got over myself and asked to join his 100 level class in my senior year, but by then he was on his way off to sabbatical. Lesson learned, albeit rather late.

I guess my point is that making the choice to commit to a career in art is a scary one, but it should be seriously confronted as soon as possible - and yeah, if the decision is "yes", then criticism is (usually) worth its weight in gold. Usually. There are however some "critics" with nothing useful to say whatsoever, and it can be hard weeding them out from the rest, because it's sooo easy to write off unpleasant comments as a kneejerk response.

And that yes as others have said, in art (as with probably most things), hard work fueled by basic interest, generally trumps inborn talent in my experience, so if you do decide to go down that road, roll up your sleeves and get ready to start with the basics.

For those who choose not to, that is ofc perfectly fine as well - nothing wrong with having a hobby even if you don't intend to be a world champ at it! Just be aware that if you solicit comments about it - meaning, you post it on a web site that's open to the world, and have a comments button, anyone with access is going to give their opinions, good and bad...

*Not aimed at anyone participating in the recent art conversation, btw!

**I did go on to write a novel that got published, but that's another story (that came much later)

Get your freaking butt online. I understand that you know.. stuff happens, and there's probably a perfectly reasonable explanation for not being able to talk last night. But I'd like to hear you say that. And there's stuff I'd REALLY like to say before Sat via voice chat, even if I'm not up to discussing it back and forth cause I'm not sure where that conversation would head. My big question now is... When you come online.. do I say "hey, so what happened last night? " Or... do I wait and see if you'll explain yourself without me having to ask...

Edit:
No word yet, and I understand life and all that, it's okay, it really is, but I don't like letting stuff like this sit. Sure, we can't talk until at least skype/voice tonight... But it would be nice to know what happened last night... I just left you a message asking what's up, with no reply.. so I left another, mentioning that not getting the chance to talk last night sucks, that my anxiety is rising, though a lot of my thoughts ARE rational, but that the anxiety causes effects that I can't help. I mentioned that I dno't want to end up seeming like "too much", so I'd let you make the next move in talking, but made it clear that I really would like to. Not sure how long I'll be able to keep that up, but I'll do my best to not initiate anything you don't want until I get home at 5pm... Hopefully that's good enough

Sukurachi wrote:ahhh the arts.

everyone can dabble in it

everyone thinks they know everything about it

so few are willing to put the hard work and years of training to learn the craft properly


I used to post on a music forum

On that forum, all people said was compliments

it was considered "mean" to critique in any way, shape, or form

the problem is, a lot of people were writing pure crap and expecting praise for it

if ANY of you are thinking of heading into any artistic discipline, be ready to have to confront idiots who know nothing, yet think of themselves as "Artists"

be ready to confront people who have "opinions" based on nothing more than their personal taste "I like this therefore it is good"

(I met one who thought Mendelssohn was the greatest musical genius who ever lived.. simply because he himself liked Mendelssohn's music. he had nothing other than "I like it" to justify his opinion which he clearly stated as an "Established fact". another insisted that music of the Classical period {Mozart's time was the "classical" period in music... don't confuse with "classical music", which describes, well ALL classical music, including contemporary classical music written last week} was the summit of all musical art and that everything afterward was garbage. his statement was based on nothing more than his personal preference. and his complete lack of ANY knowledge whatsoever about any music post-Classical period)

The arts: a world of brilliance and genius, of great ideas and of deep thought, of profound emotion and divine inspiration...

The arts: ALSO a world of dilettantes with no culture, full of pretense and ego, arrogant beyond belief and full of themselves...

You want to be an artist, regardless of the discipline? LEARN THE CRAFT.

NOTHING pisses me off like people who don't want to learn their craft.

Oh I know how you feel. So many people like that on DA it's just not funny. There is no such thing as a flawless piece of art there is allways room to improve.
A good artest knows that a bad artest thinks their art is a masterpiece.

I get critques from people on DA who's drawing skill is way lower than mine I just have to luagh really I do. Don't send me links saying this is how you should draw it when you use MS paint

Bf almost got into sooooo much trouble with me just now... he txted how i was and i txted him back and he said that he was cold and waiting for a bus and i asked him where he was cause i thought he would be home playing games and he told me he was in my town hanging with friends.

'Course when you have a combination of my town, a group of friends that doesnt include me in the mix, and waiting for a bus, i automatically thought he was going home after hanging with them but apparently he was on the other side of town and needed a bus to get to my side XD he wanted to surprise me but he kinda screwed that up when he said he was waiting for a bus which sparked the conversation.

and faaaak i hate drawing folded wings TT_TT i think they're too technical for my skill right now, but i drew my character standing so i wanted his wings folded like he was resting. im gonna have to draw him in flight for a bit till i get the hang of it.

cowmuflage wrote:I get critques from people on DA who's drawing skill is way lower than mine I just have to luagh really I do. Don't send me links saying this is how you should draw it when you use MS paint

Don't diss the MS Paint users. I've seen some fabulous art when people use merely MS Paint. If you can work with MS Paint, you can work anything far as I'm concerned.