WoW Petopia Community

Thank you for clearing it up Kurenio and Foru21dr!

Do you check yourself standing still, or moving? Because if you do it standing still, I would recommend moving every 15 seconds for about 3 seconds, since you dont get to just unload on bosses. You might see different results.

Thank you for the tests, Kurenio.

There's no need to run around for each test, to be honest. He ran tests with all the same parameters, minus pet. Standing still in each one. If he ran around for each one it would still probably show the same results but with a smaller DPS for each.

I took the time this morning to go through and pick out Epics from Normal Raids. Most of them have Crit+Mastery. I haven't put them into FemaleDwarf.com yet as I went to bed after. I'll do that now to see what the outcome is when I take some of the Mastery and swap it to Haste. Maybe I just had so much Haste and so little Mastery before and that's what was giving me the -DPS loss when I left it as Mastery?

On another note. I love being Draenei. Extra 1% hit rate helps to let me focus on other stats. =3

Seilahyn wrote:Thank you for the tests, Kurenio.

There's no need to run around for each test, to be honest. He ran tests with all the same parameters, minus pet. Standing still in each one. If he ran around for each one it would still probably show the same results but with a smaller DPS for each.

I took the time this morning to go through and pick out Epics from Normal Raids. Most of them have Crit+Mastery. I haven't put them into FemaleDwarf.com yet as I went to bed after. I'll do that now to see what the outcome is when I take some of the Mastery and swap it to Haste. Maybe I just had so much Haste and so little Mastery before and that's what was giving me the -DPS loss when I left it as Mastery?

On another note. I love being Draenei. Extra 1% hit rate helps to let me focus on other stats. =3

It does matter.

To keep it simple, let's revert back to the old days for my example. no autoshot while moving.

Hunter A is BM, who is gemmed for Haste (For the sake of argument). He pulls 500 DPS, his pet pulls 300 DPS.

Hunter B is BM, and is gemmed for mastery. His dps is 300, his pet's dps is 400.

On a given boss fight, movement is required. That means that during those periods of movement, hunter A's dps drops to 0 and his pet pulls his 300, and hunter Bs dps ALSO drops to 0, but HIS dps is at 400 for that segment, because pets continue to attack.

So over the course of the boss fight, it is possible for the BM hunter gemmed for mastery to equal or outdps the other hunter, depending on the amount of movement involved, or if you get CCed somehow.

So that variable can greatly change the outcome of the charts, which was my original theory when gemming for BM. in situations where I was doing something besides DPSing (trapping, killing adds), my pet was still pulling a considerable amount of damage on the boss.

So it's important to test Mastery vs agi vs crit gemming under the conditions of movement, rather than just standing still and unloading. While it's not going to be a HUGE difference since we can autoshot while moving now, it still should make a difference.

Kurenio wrote:

CrystalKitten wrote:Kurenio has some VERY good posts about research regarding stat priority. I'd suggest searching for some of them. There's one on this board about BM spec, or something. He seems to have gone through quite a bit of testing and all that to help figure out the best priority, and all that. One thing to keep in mind is that even though master increases our pet's damage, Agility increases OUR attack power, which also increases our pet's attack power.

Pretty much what Crystal said. Agility is our main stat and dwarfs every other stat when it comes to dps. Your gems should be pure agility unless the socket bonus is 20+ Agility for a 1 half gem(Agi+something). 30+ for a 2 half gem(Agi+something). It will be quite a difference in your dps if your putting mastery before agility. Also you should not be worried about your AoE dps. If it is really that important make a survival off spec for your AoE needs. AoE is currently just horrid for BM, but here is the link to the BM discussion that was going on earlier.

http://forums.wow-petopia.com/viewtopic ... 15&t=13537

TL:DR The current stat prio is Agility > Hit to 8% > Crit >= Mastery > Haste

The gear you want to shoot for is Crit+Mastery (Agility being a primary stat it will be on all of your gear).

As for trinkets I'd go
1. Agi passive + crit proc
2. Agi passive + mastery proc
3. Agi passive + dmg proc
4. Crit passive + Agi proc
5. Crit passive + Mastery proc
6. Mastery passive + Agi proc
7. Mastery passive + crit proc

Blizzard did nerf us slightly while trying to keep surv and MM the same so obviously they were seeing something most of us were not.

EDIT: Just noticed you play on wildhammer... all I have to say to that is WEWT! I played there precata, but left due to all the trolls and dicks there >.>

Wow love the post, I think I'll look to resorting my own character a bit with this information.

Is the agility > hit to 8% > crit > mastery > haste
Primarily for SV and BM together? I thought I saw somewhere that mastery was better for SV or something

Loffter wrote:Do you check yourself standing still, or moving? Because if you do it standing still, I would recommend moving every 15 seconds for about 3 seconds, since you dont get to just unload on bosses. You might see different results.

the result would be lower dps across the board. Moving lowers your dps period, and If i was having to move that mean my pet is most likely in motion too.

Seilahyn wrote:Thank you for the tests, Kurenio.

There's no need to run around for each test, to be honest. He ran tests with all the same parameters, minus pet. Standing still in each one. If he ran around for each one it would still probably show the same results but with a smaller DPS for each.

Actually I did yest with all the same parameters. I only reported the highest for each set up, and with only 1 case did the crit buff come out as more dps then having the agi buff.

Royi wrote:
Wow love the post, I think I'll look to resorting my own character a bit with this information.

Is the agility > hit to 8% > crit > mastery > haste
Primarily for SV and BM together? I thought I saw somewhere that mastery was better for SV or something

I haven't gone through the tests for SV priority, but I can if you would like.

Loffter wrote:
It does matter.

To keep it simple, let's revert back to the old days for my example. no autoshot while moving.

Hunter A is BM, who is gemmed for Haste (For the sake of argument). He pulls 500 DPS, his pet pulls 300 DPS.

Hunter B is BM, and is gemmed for mastery. His dps is 300, his pet's dps is 400.

On a given boss fight, movement is required. That means that during those periods of movement, hunter A's dps drops to 0 and his pet pulls his 300, and hunter Bs dps ALSO drops to 0, but HIS dps is at 400 for that segment, because pets continue to attack.

So over the course of the boss fight, it is possible for the BM hunter gemmed for mastery to equal or outdps the other hunter, depending on the amount of movement involved, or if you get CCed somehow.

So that variable can greatly change the outcome of the charts, which was my original theory when gemming for BM. in situations where I was doing something besides DPSing (trapping, killing adds), my pet was still pulling a considerable amount of damage on the boss.

So it's important to test Mastery vs agi vs crit gemming under the conditions of movement, rather than just standing still and unloading. While it's not going to be a HUGE difference since we can autoshot while moving now, it still should make a difference.

If you really want to claim there is a huge difference between having to move and switching targets I can do those test to if you like, but I will say this having any mastery/haste/crit on your gems besides maybe in your helm/chest/leg slots is a huge dps loss as you should be gemming agility. per point agility is worth 3-4 times as much as crit/haste/mastery would be.

Kurenio wrote:

Loffter wrote:Do you check yourself standing still, or moving? Because if you do it standing still, I would recommend moving every 15 seconds for about 3 seconds, since you dont get to just unload on bosses. You might see different results.

the result would be lower dps across the board. Moving lowers your dps period, and If i was having to move that mean my pet is most likely in motion too.

Seilahyn wrote:Thank you for the tests, Kurenio.

There's no need to run around for each test, to be honest. He ran tests with all the same parameters, minus pet. Standing still in each one. If he ran around for each one it would still probably show the same results but with a smaller DPS for each.

Actually I did yest with all the same parameters. I only reported the highest for each set up, and with only 1 case did the crit buff come out as more dps then having the agi buff.

Royi wrote:
Wow love the post, I think I'll look to resorting my own character a bit with this information.

Is the agility > hit to 8% > crit > mastery > haste
Primarily for SV and BM together? I thought I saw somewhere that mastery was better for SV or something

I haven't gone through the tests for SV priority, but I can if you would like.

Loffter wrote:
It does matter.

To keep it simple, let's revert back to the old days for my example. no autoshot while moving.

Hunter A is BM, who is gemmed for Haste (For the sake of argument). He pulls 500 DPS, his pet pulls 300 DPS.

Hunter B is BM, and is gemmed for mastery. His dps is 300, his pet's dps is 400.

On a given boss fight, movement is required. That means that during those periods of movement, hunter A's dps drops to 0 and his pet pulls his 300, and hunter Bs dps ALSO drops to 0, but HIS dps is at 400 for that segment, because pets continue to attack.

So over the course of the boss fight, it is possible for the BM hunter gemmed for mastery to equal or outdps the other hunter, depending on the amount of movement involved, or if you get CCed somehow.

So that variable can greatly change the outcome of the charts, which was my original theory when gemming for BM. in situations where I was doing something besides DPSing (trapping, killing adds), my pet was still pulling a considerable amount of damage on the boss.

So it's important to test Mastery vs agi vs crit gemming under the conditions of movement, rather than just standing still and unloading. While it's not going to be a HUGE difference since we can autoshot while moving now, it still should make a difference.

If you really want to claim there is a huge difference between having to move and switching targets I can do those test to if you like, but I will say this having any mastery/haste/crit on your gems besides maybe in your helm/chest/leg slots is a huge dps loss as you should be gemming agility. per point agility is worth 3-4 times as much as crit/haste/mastery would be.

I mean no disrespect to you, and I believe in your testing, but in the overall example I provided, I hope I at least showed where my doubt lies. I really do think that in instances of motion combat, a higher mastery rating would come out over crit or haste.

As far as gemming, I figure you are most likely right. I'm gonna use female dwarf just to see the dps difference between myself and my pet depending on how I gem. I'll report that back.

Loffter wrote:
I mean no disrespect to you, and I believe in your testing, but in the overall example I provided, I hope I at least showed where my doubt lies. I really do think that in instances of motion combat, a higher mastery rating would come out over crit or haste.

As far as gemming, I figure you are most likely right. I'm gonna use female dwarf just to see the dps difference between myself and my pet depending on how I gem. I'll report that back.

Do you want me to attempt to attempt different situation?

1. moving every 15 seconds
2. switching targets every 30 seconds.
3. AoE fights
4. etc

I don't mind testing its what must be done if you want to come out on top.

Thanks for offering to do many tests for the benefit of us all, If you don't mind trying SV single target stationary (just as an example) of Crit vs Mastery I would be interested on what you come up with. No rush on doing the test, I appreciate it

Kurenio wrote:

Loffter wrote:
I mean no disrespect to you, and I believe in your testing, but in the overall example I provided, I hope I at least showed where my doubt lies. I really do think that in instances of motion combat, a higher mastery rating would come out over crit or haste.

As far as gemming, I figure you are most likely right. I'm gonna use female dwarf just to see the dps difference between myself and my pet depending on how I gem. I'll report that back.

Do you want me to attempt to attempt different situation?

1. moving every 15 seconds
2. switching targets every 30 seconds.
3. AoE fights
4. etc

I don't mind testing its what must be done if you want to come out on top.

Let's say, do one where you can explode for 20 seconds, then you have to move for 15 seconds. Also, if you have the time, one where you are DPSing a boss, then you have to AOE/CC down some adds (Like the giant worm boss), then get back on the boss.

edit- So yeah, agi all the way. I replaced all my mastery gems in female dwarf with agi, and my pet's dps went down by 6, MY dps went up by 200. So...yea. Agi gems for sure lol

Loffter wrote:
Let's say, do one where you can explode for 20 seconds, then you have to move for 15 seconds. Also, if you have the time, one where you are DPSing a boss, then you have to AOE/CC down some adds (Like the giant worm boss), then get back on the boss.

edit- So yeah, agi all the way. I replaced all my mastery gems in female dwarf with agi, and my pet's dps went down by 6, MY dps went up by 200. So...yea. Agi gems for sure lol

Will be tough to emulate perfectly but I'll give it a shot

Kurenio wrote:

Loffter wrote:
Let's say, do one where you can explode for 20 seconds, then you have to move for 15 seconds. Also, if you have the time, one where you are DPSing a boss, then you have to AOE/CC down some adds (Like the giant worm boss), then get back on the boss.

edit- So yeah, agi all the way. I replaced all my mastery gems in female dwarf with agi, and my pet's dps went down by 6, MY dps went up by 200. So...yea. Agi gems for sure lol

Will be tough to emulate perfectly but I'll give it a shot

Just keep in mind that on the second fight, the damage that matters is the boss damage, not so much the damage you are doing to the adds.

It would still show it a meters test

Kurenio wrote:It would still show it a meters test

alright then. I'll leave it to you then! I would do it myself, but I'm at work for another 2 hours. You are the awesomest for being able to do this stuff =)

BM: Situation = standing still 20 second moving 20 second then aoeing for 15 seconds until 2 million damage is reached.

Crit > Mastery > haste prio

came out to about 13k dps unbuffed

Mastery > crit > haste prio

came out to about 12.8-12.9 dps unbuffed


SV: Situation = patchwerk fight

Crit > Master > haste prio

Came out to about 17k unbuffed

Mastery > Crit > Haste prio

Came out to about 16.5-16.7k unbuffed

Honestly, I think Kill Command and Bestial Wrath make up for any movement a hunter has to do, with the way it crits so heavily. I believe Kurenio is definitely right on the Crit > Mastery > Haste ordeal.

Jessibelle wrote:Honestly, I think Kill Command and Bestial Wrath make up for any movement a hunter has to do, with the way it crits so heavily. I believe Kurenio is definitely right on the Crit > Mastery > Haste ordeal.

Yep its seems to be about a 100-200 dps constant loss when going from crit > mastery > haste to Mastery > crit > haste.

Kurenio wrote:

Jessibelle wrote:Honestly, I think Kill Command and Bestial Wrath make up for any movement a hunter has to do, with the way it crits so heavily. I believe Kurenio is definitely right on the Crit > Mastery > Haste ordeal.

Yep its seems to be about a 100-200 dps constant loss when going from crit > mastery > haste to Mastery > crit > haste.

I tell you what....seeing a 50k crit come from Kill Command is very sexy. XD Sorry I can't think of a better word to describe my glee anytime I see it. And with said priorities, I tend to whoop the britches off the high and mighty SV and MM hunters that mock me for being BM. ;3

sigh, so I am very wrong. that...the disapointment is crushing..

Kurenio wrote:

wickedhunter wrote:

well if your looking for damage out put i can tell u mm is the way to go i sustain 24k+ in firelands depending on the fight and burst damage i get up to roughly around 35k and aoe i get up to 40- 45k

*cough* I pulled 24k+ sustained in T11 content *cough* granted that was in a 25m raid setting in horrible gear (I still have horrible gear imo). A good BM hunter can compete with a good MM hunter in terms of damage assuming their pet can be on the main target. I can pull up to 35k in aoe if I pop BW with spamming MS. done think because the average BM hunter pulls nothing near that of a MM hunter, but a highly skilled BM hunter like myself can. I've personally out dps'd good MM hunters who out gear me.

well fireland fights r way diff from bot and bwd if ur in t11 reg gear i highly doubt u can do tht in firelands cuz of how much movement u have to do