WoW Petopia Community

TheDoomcookie wrote:

Worba wrote:I just hope they're also planning on giving meleers +100 on all need rolls for weapons, because otherwise I could see this turning ugly fast - can you imagine playing a rogue and having a hunter /need a sword or dagger away from you... all just so they can pose in it out of combat?

If they can guarantee that scenario won't happen, then I wouldn't object to it, though it'll feel pretty strange - people are going to be writing up macros just so they can switch out of "cool looking" melee weapons when they enter combat, and then again when combat ends.

Technically hunters can do the same thing now. It would be no different. I don't go around needing on cool looking swords that I don't need, but I could if I wanted to.

No, that's incorrect - currently we have a dead zone and a couple melee moves, so while our need for melee weapons is limited it's still needed for combat.

In MoP they're taking away our dead zone and thus we will no longer need melee weapons for combat.

Big difference.

SylviaDragon wrote:So you will be able to have both the sword and bow on at the same time and can see them, but you just cannot use the sword- its only for show? If so then i think a happy dance is in order.

You might want to hold off on that happy dance - as Kalliope pointed out, it's either / or, not both.

Honestly I don't think they really thought this bit out very well - from a purely game-mechanics / balancing / loot perspective it makes sense to remove the ranged slot, but at least for a lot of hunters, melee weapons have a certain "cool factor" whose loss would diminish the class on a subtle level.

I'm fine with removing the dead zone if it was really causing that much imbalance in PVP*, but honestly I think they could have just as well left the ranged slot as-is, and let us keep our token few melee moves - even if meleers got a +100 loot roll bonus over us with melee weapons and we had to make do with the leftovers.

I'm hoping this is still very much in the design stage and gets further reviewed.

*Well not "fine" exactly - frankly I find it annoying when major changes have to be made to PVE not to fix things that mess up PVE but rather because they cause problems with PVP. And vice versa. They're like room mates who dislike eachother and are different in just about every conceivable way, yet are forced to keep on sharing the same apartment. But ofc that's a very dead horse...

A possible solution for hunters is to have a macro/addon/something set up for swapping between the useless melee weapon and ranged weapon when we're swapping between combat and non-combat. Or maybe let us assign a melee weapon's appearance to our ranged weapon that automatically swaps when we're out of combat.

Well, if nothing changes then yes, I could definitely see that macro happening (I'd use it for certain, though I wouldn't be thrilled about it).

However, generally, when a script or macro becomes so "de rigeur" that massive numbers of players are using it, Blizzard builds it into the game*. E.g. autoshot, "stance dancing", etc. And I'd like to think they could anticipate that and avoid the whole scenario by just taking this back to the drawing board for some more careful consideration.

When this first came up I was like "hmm no more ninja'ing - cool". But if hunters will still be able to equip melee wpns, then that idea goes out the window unless they do something really creative with loot rolls. The dead zone thing is at least 90% a matter of PVP so that wasn't much of a gain for me as a PVE'er. So what's left then? Basically a net loss from where I'm standing.

I'm just trying to remind myself we're still deep in the development stage...

*Either that or they just break said macro/script, as with worgen forms addons...

Well, we wouldn't be able to need roll on any of the melee weapons, so that should prevent ninjaing.

That's been confirmed? All I heard was that we would be able to equip melee weapons - by itself that doesn't preclude need rolls.

Even if they did limit it to just greed, the basic clumsiness (of having to macro-swap aesthetic melee weapons with functional ranged weapons) remains.

I have a bad feeling that gameplay mechanics are going to get hosed for us in wrath to pacify RP demands. Like someone above said, this seems not well thought out, and I see a very kludged and messed up system because they try to please everyone.

Watch them revert the minimum range change because of the fuss.

/huff

Well, why would we need to need roll on weapons that give us no usable stats? I can't imagine that it won't be blocked, though you're right that it hasn't been stated anywhere that I've seen. I'm just assuming that it'll work that way.

It's more likely that the RPers will have to suck it up, if anything, Slick. If you hadn't noticed, EVERYONE is losing their ranged slot, including hunters. Wands and bows/crossbows/guns will move to the main hand slot. No reason for us to get our minimum range back, since we still won't have melee weapons.

If anything, we'll just have to swap to our RP gear (namely the stat sticks) after exiting combat, much like we (basically) have to do now. It's just a small inconvenience for a cosmetic perk.

Worba wrote:

TheDoomcookie wrote:

Worba wrote:I just hope they're also planning on giving meleers +100 on all need rolls for weapons, because otherwise I could see this turning ugly fast - can you imagine playing a rogue and having a hunter /need a sword or dagger away from you... all just so they can pose in it out of combat?

If they can guarantee that scenario won't happen, then I wouldn't object to it, though it'll feel pretty strange - people are going to be writing up macros just so they can switch out of "cool looking" melee weapons when they enter combat, and then again when combat ends.

Technically hunters can do the same thing now. It would be no different. I don't go around needing on cool looking swords that I don't need, but I could if I wanted to.

No, that's incorrect - currently we have a dead zone and a couple melee moves, so while our need for melee weapons is limited it's still needed for combat.

In MoP they're taking away our dead zone and thus we will no longer need melee weapons for combat.

Big difference.[/size]

Not really.... we might be able to use it yeah, but I can still need something I don't need just because it looks cool. I needed on the Zulian Slasher once (after I asked the group if it was fine, but I didn't have to) for the bonus to skinning but I never equip it unless I'm skinning raid or heroic bosses.
Yes, it's slightly different but I'm saying hunters have the ability to need weapons they can equip right now but they might just want them for the cool looks (not saying anyone here does that, either).
But on topic, I don't think hunters will change much, especially since melee weapons will be completely useless to us except for showing off. I really can't guess if they'll make it so we cannot need or not since it's not confirmed. Would be a good question for another FAQ session. My best guess though is that we probably wouldn't. Sort of how we can't roll need on plate, leather, and cloth.

Kalliope wrote:Well, why would we need to need roll on weapons that give us no usable stats? I can't imagine that it won't be blocked, though you're right that it hasn't been stated anywhere that I've seen. I'm just assuming that it'll work that way.

It's more likely that the RPers will have to suck it up, if anything, Slick. If you hadn't noticed, EVERYONE is losing their ranged slot, including hunters. Wands and bows/crossbows/guns will move to the main hand slot. No reason for us to get our minimum range back, since we still won't have melee weapons.

If anything, we'll just have to swap to our RP gear (namely the stat sticks) after exiting combat, much like we (basically) have to do now. It's just a small inconvenience for a cosmetic perk.

Well the folk that want to roll need for cosmetics will have to give up their guns and bows to rogues and warriors for cosmetic reasons then too...

But really, walking around town and such, sure, RP gear is fine. But do we really need to swap gear in and out of combat?... Do we raid in RP gear? I don't hear other classes complaining about this the way hunters are.

I guess my frustration here is the RP concerns seem to be considered more heavily that fixing game mechanics so that hunters stay competitive. Getting rid of min range is a huge plus. (In Firelands tonight, I had to deal with all sorts of min range issues.. "stack on healers... get in blue.." but I can't and still dps).

Slickrock wrote:But really, walking around town and such, sure, RP gear is fine. But do we really need to swap gear in and out of combat?... Do we raid in RP gear? I don't hear other classes complaining about this the way hunters are.

Are you basing this perception off of what's been discussed on these forums? Cause that's a skewed perception, to be sure.

I doubt warriors or rogues would get to need roll on ranged weaponry either. Two-way street, naturally.

I think the thing with melee weapons is that there are so many cosmetic and useful ones (guitar axe, skinning swords, I'm sure there are others?) and also that they actually show when sheathed. I dunno they're just more noticeable so... I dunno maybe my logic is weird that just how I see it. XD

Kalliope wrote:If anything, we'll just have to swap to our RP gear (namely the stat sticks) after exiting combat, much like we (basically) have to do now. It's just a small inconvenience for a cosmetic perk.

Huh? Swapping to melee weapons after every fight in MoP is far different than swapping into an RP equipset when entering a town or w/e. I seriously doubt there are that many people who even bother with an RP set at least not on any kind of frequency - I've never once grouped or guilded with someone who was switching gear like that in pugs or raids. Whereas if players have to choose between awesome looking weapons and a ... quiver? That's not about RP'ing, it's about simply preserving the basic look and feel we've all come to enjoy - to do otherwise is to look, well, awkward.

TheDoomcookie wrote:Not really.... we might be able to use it yeah, but I can still need something I don't need just because it looks cool. I needed on the Zulian Slasher once (after I asked the group if it was fine, but I didn't have to) for the bonus to skinning but I never equip it unless I'm skinning raid or heroic bosses.

As long as you have moves that require a melee weapon, you need a melee weapon - period. And having one doesn't preclude having a ranged weapon. So even in cases where the stats are suboptimal and the loot rolls fail to gray out the need button, at least you can, in fact, use it for close range autoattack, wing clips and raptor strikes.

Whereas in MoP, you have no melee weapon moves, no dead zone, and equipping a melee weapon precludes equipping a ranged weapon, so it has no combat use whatsoever.

It really doesn't get more different.

TheDoomcookie wrote:Not really.... we might be able to use it yeah, but I can still need something I don't need just because it looks cool. I needed on the Zulian Slasher once (after I asked the group if it was fine, but I didn't have to) for the bonus to skinning but I never equip it unless I'm skinning raid or heroic bosses.

As long as you can equip it and have moves that require a melee weapon, you need a melee weapon - period. And having one doesn't preclude having a ranged weapon. So even in cases where the stats are suboptimal and the loot rolls fail to gray out the need button, at least you can, in fact, use it for close range autoattack, wing clips and raptor strikes.

Whereas in MoP, you have no melee weapon moves, no dead zone, and equipping a melee weapon precludes equipping a ranged weapon, so it has no combat use whatsoever.

It really doesn't get more different.[/quote]
I've tried and tried to get my point across but you don't seem to be getting it. In my first statement, I used the word "technically" not "basically." I know there is a difference but the point I'm getting at is not as far different as you say it is in my view. I understand that in MoP we cant use this stuff in combat but we can still need stuff for pretty-ness right now in live. Lets just forget gamne mechanics and balancing and just look at the basics.
At item drops, Bob doesn't need it but he needs it anyway cause man is that one cool looking axe. Group gets pissed.
MoP comes along, let's say they let us need these items for some reason (which I do not think will be the case and I probably wouldn't approve of it if it were) A really awesome looking axe drops, he has no use for it but he can equip it so sure why not.

Just ignore the stats and the fact that right now we can use them in out dead zone and think of the looks. I know there are people out in the world (of Warcraft) that need stuff they don't need for "lolRP"

Yeah okay the way I see it isn't that common or likely of a scenario, but it's there for the taking.

Again, I do NOT think we will be able to need this stuff when 5.0 hits similar to how we CANNOT need plate, leather, or cloth items even though we can equip them.


Also... wtf at me quoting myself. O.o I need sleep I guess. Either way I'm finished "arguing" is that's what this is. I just want peace. x.x

Worba wrote:[

TheDoomcookie wrote:Not really.... we might be able to use it yeah, but I can still need something I don't need just because it looks cool. I needed on the Zulian Slasher once (after I asked the group if it was fine, but I didn't have to) for the bonus to skinning but I never equip it unless I'm skinning raid or heroic bosses.

As long as you have moves that require a melee weapon, you need a melee weapon - period. And having one doesn't preclude having a ranged weapon. So even in cases where the stats are suboptimal and the loot rolls fail to gray out the need button, at least you can, in fact, use it for close range autoattack, wing clips and raptor strikes.

Whereas in MoP, you have no melee weapon moves, no dead zone, and equipping a melee weapon precludes equipping a ranged weapon, so it has no combat use whatsoever.

It really doesn't get more different.

You know that the melee weapon Mia asked to need on is a strength-based weapon, right? That's why she asked, not just because it was a melee weapon. It's a different situation than the stat stick question.

And your point about MoP is what we've been saying - we won't have melee abilities and therefore will not need stat sticks. It's that simple.

I really don't understand all the fearmongering. I could need on anything I'm allowed to right now if I wanted it for transmog or looks. Or just for vendor if I was really selfish. But I don't without asking. Even if I didn't refrain for ethical reasons it would still be the last thing I'd do before being kicked from the group. I truly don't see any of this as a significant concern.

Kalliope wrote:You know that the melee weapon Mia asked to need on is a strength-based weapon, right? That's why she asked, not just because it was a melee weapon.

Yes, that's why I said

Worba wrote:So even in cases where the stats are suboptimal and the loot rolls fail to gray out the need button, at least you can, in fact, use it for close range autoattack, wing clips and raptor strikes.

It's not about stats though (wpn stats are a non-issue in MoP, as obv the loss in stats would be made up elsewhere...) - for the "no difference" idea to work, you have to accept that removing melee weapons (as useful combat items) is a 100% good idea.

I don't see it that way - it's about simple look and feel. Meaning it's not incidental that hunters look cooler with their melee weapons - which a lot of people do get. However it's also necessary for those melee weapons to have some minimal value beyond looks, else a lot of people who are initially pleased with the bread crumb of keeping their melee wpns purely for looks, are going to tend to stop swapping them in, or start to feel somewhat silly for doing so - which I think is going to take longer for many people to see.

This is not a m.u.d. - excluding looks from the equation doesn't work in a game like wow, else there wouldn't be uproars over things like reserving certain gear models to raids.

Wain wrote:I really don't understand all the fearmongering. I could need on anything I'm allowed to right now if I wanted it for transmog or looks. Or just for vendor if I was really selfish. But I don't without asking. Even if I didn't refrain for ethical reasons it would still be the last thing I'd do before being kicked from the group. I truly don't see any of this as a significant concern.

Well "allowed" in this case means "stuff for which need should have been grayed like it is for most things with irrelevant stats, but isn't", e.g. a loophole, and something you still need for activating melee abilities, which are small but important if you want to have some reason to equip melee weapons beyond simply looking good.

OMG YAY.

That really takes a load off my mind you guys have NO idea. lol

Worba wrote:

Kalliope wrote:You know that the melee weapon Mia asked to need on is a strength-based weapon, right? That's why she asked, not just because it was a melee weapon.

Yes, that's why I said

Worba wrote:So even in cases where the stats are suboptimal and the loot rolls fail to gray out the need button, at least you can, in fact, use it for close range autoattack, wing clips and raptor strikes.

Which was why I said:

Kalliope wrote:And your point about MoP is what we've been saying - we won't have melee abilities and therefore will not need stat sticks. It's that simple.

Right after that.

Worba wrote:It's not about stats though (wpn stats are a non-issue in MoP, as obv the loss in stats would be made up elsewhere...) - for the "no difference" idea to work, you have to accept that removing melee weapons (as useful combat items) is a 100% good idea.

I don't see it that way - it's about simple look and feel. Meaning it's not incidental that hunters look cooler with their melee weapons - which a lot of people do get. However it's also necessary for those melee weapons to have some minimal value beyond looks, else a lot of people who are initially pleased with the bread crumb of keeping their melee wpns purely for looks, are going to tend to stop swapping them in, or start to feel somewhat silly for doing so - which I think is going to take longer for many people to see.

The only people who seem to be concerned about swapping in a melee weapon at this point would only be doing it for looks anyway because there won't be raptor strikes or any other melee abilities. Those are gone. There is already no need for melee weapons for us in MoP (as currently planned) because we have no melee range abilities. Yes, I'm being redundant here, because the decisions we're talking about here are already cosmetic one. We traded melee abilities for no minimum range. That has nothing to do with looks and everything to do with functionality. However, we have no idea what visual we're going to be left with, so all of this complaining is for naught. We don't currently have our ranged weapons on our backs, so clearly, something different would have to be done, be it said ranged weapon, a quiver, some automatic visual of something else (perhaps even a default), or nothing at all.

If having a melee weapon on your back is that important to you, you can always roll a melee class too.

Worba wrote:Well "allowed" in this case means "stuff for which need should have been grayed like it is for most things with irrelevant stats, but isn't", e.g. a loophole, and something you still need for activating melee abilities, which are small but important if you want to have some reason to equip melee weapons beyond simply looking good.

What part of "we won't have melee abilities" isn't getting through to you? :/

Worba wrote:

TheDoomcookie wrote:

Worba wrote:I just hope they're also planning on giving meleers +100 on all need rolls for weapons, because otherwise I could see this turning ugly fast - can you imagine playing a rogue and having a hunter /need a sword or dagger away from you... all just so they can pose in it out of combat?

If they can guarantee that scenario won't happen, then I wouldn't object to it, though it'll feel pretty strange - people are going to be writing up macros just so they can switch out of "cool looking" melee weapons when they enter combat, and then again when combat ends.

Technically hunters can do the same thing now. It would be no different. I don't go around needing on cool looking swords that I don't need, but I could if I wanted to.

No, that's incorrect - currently we have a dead zone and a couple melee moves, so while our need for melee weapons is limited it's still needed for combat.

In MoP they're taking away our dead zone and thus we will no longer need melee weapons for combat.

Big difference.

SylviaDragon wrote:So you will be able to have both the sword and bow on at the same time and can see them, but you just cannot use the sword- its only for show? If so then i think a happy dance is in order.

You might want to hold off on that happy dance - as Kalliope pointed out, it's either / or, not both.

Honestly I don't think they really thought this bit out very well - from a purely game-mechanics / balancing / loot perspective it makes sense to remove the ranged slot, but at least for a lot of hunters, melee weapons have a certain "cool factor" whose loss would diminish the class on a subtle level.

I'm fine with removing the dead zone if it was really causing that much imbalance in PVP*, but honestly I think they could have just as well left the ranged slot as-is, and let us keep our token few melee moves - even if meleers got a +100 loot roll bonus over us with melee weapons and we had to make do with the leftovers.

I'm hoping this is still very much in the design stage and gets further reviewed.

*Well not "fine" exactly - frankly I find it annoying when major changes have to be made to PVE not to fix things that mess up PVE but rather because they cause problems with PVP. And vice versa. They're like room mates who dislike eachother and are different in just about every conceivable way, yet are forced to keep on sharing the same apartment. But ofc that's a very dead horse...

It would be less risky and would give things a smoother flow if they kept melee and ranged slots. Just make the damage/stats from the weapon void and null. (Like perhaps arrows fire blanks for rouges/wars and melee weapons only cause unarmed damage for hunters if they try and melee for some reason.)
On a side note, I really hope they keep wingclip. Even thought we will be able to fire at point blank we are still supposed to do ranged dps and its nice to have an emergency slow to help you get away from those crushing melee attacks.