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The best one has got to be the Frostfire finale. Durotan's bro just going full-on Orc mode and that yell of Lok'tar, man, dem feels. That's the stuff that makes me play horde.

Niabi wrote:

Azunara wrote:Thrall was stupid and made a bad call in putting Garrosh in charge when Garrosh lacked the personality or willingness to lead. This lead to the Horde turning on him (Sylvanas completely disobeying his orders, Cairne openly challenging him to a duel, Vol'jin making death threats, etc.) and as a result he turned to the one thing he could trust--war.

He tried to do what was best for the Horde, it didn't work, he's getting punished because he was left all on his own in a job he didn't want with a faction who hated him. Is it any surprise he was in a bad spot? And then he gets written off in a stupid and still anti-climactic way, making him seem like a whiny baby, with Green Jesus once again proving to be an obnoxious mary sue taking the lead in Orclords of Draenorc.

I am going to have to disagree with this statement. I do believe Thrall made a misguided decision when he placed Garrosh in his stead. That fact is undisputable in my opinion. However, Garrosh from the get-go demonstrated a distrust and prejudice of anyone that wasn't Orc or who dared to see things differently. This is what provoked the other faction leader's hatred. Garrosh had an opportunity to use his time in power to serve the people's greater interest but instead all he did was indulge his own selfish motives for bloodlust and conquest. Garrosh wasn't alone either. He had counsel but chose to ignore their advice and wisdom. Garrosh may have not wanted the power at first but when he had it he abused it to its fullest extent. Plain and simple.

Well, I dunno. I wouldn't say it's plain and simple at all. He actually did think he was helping his people, but seeing as everyone hated him a few days after he got power and he was new to the Horde as a whole, he did kind of have the cards stacked against him. So he helped the only ones he saw sticking with him- and DANG did he do a good job! Orgrimmar prospered like crazy, he practically rebuilt it from the ground up and then built a fortress below. The war effort prospered (war wasn't his idea, I must mention- it was already raging before he took the throne) and the Horde took back lots of land that was taken from them.

He wasn't perfect, not even that good, but he didn't do a lot of the initial bad that turned everyone against him. Stonetalon wasn't his call, and he even showed up to show his disgust at the killing of harmless children and how the military there had thrown away honor. The tauren turning against him wasn't his call, because while he did mess up by dueling Cairne, Magatha was the one that poisoned his blade. He just got blamed for it. And Vol'jin was disloyal from the get-go, which frankly shouldn't fly no matter who the warchief is.

Then, well, I don't know actually, things happened and suddenly he was TOTALLY okay with bombing a city even though he was rabidly against it earlier and I'm lost after that point. I guess he went Macbeth on us and decided hey, everyone already hated him, might as well just try to bring the orcs as far as he could- ...and then Sha happened and he stopped being himself at all, because you don't have any control once Sha happen.

LupisDarkmoon wrote:

Niabi wrote:

Azunara wrote:Thrall was stupid and made a bad call in putting Garrosh in charge when Garrosh lacked the personality or willingness to lead. This lead to the Horde turning on him (Sylvanas completely disobeying his orders, Cairne openly challenging him to a duel, Vol'jin making death threats, etc.) and as a result he turned to the one thing he could trust--war.

He tried to do what was best for the Horde, it didn't work, he's getting punished because he was left all on his own in a job he didn't want with a faction who hated him. Is it any surprise he was in a bad spot? And then he gets written off in a stupid and still anti-climactic way, making him seem like a whiny baby, with Green Jesus once again proving to be an obnoxious mary sue taking the lead in Orclords of Draenorc.

I am going to have to disagree with this statement. I do believe Thrall made a misguided decision when he placed Garrosh in his stead. That fact is undisputable in my opinion. However, Garrosh from the get-go demonstrated a distrust and prejudice of anyone that wasn't Orc or who dared to see things differently. This is what provoked the other faction leader's hatred. Garrosh had an opportunity to use his time in power to serve the people's greater interest but instead all he did was indulge his own selfish motives for bloodlust and conquest. Garrosh wasn't alone either. He had counsel but chose to ignore their advice and wisdom. Garrosh may have not wanted the power at first but when he had it he abused it to its fullest extent. Plain and simple.

Well, I dunno. I wouldn't say it's plain and simple at all. He actually did think he was helping his people, but seeing as everyone hated him a few days after he got power and he was new to the Horde as a whole, he did kind of have the cards stacked against him. So he helped the only ones he saw sticking with him- and DANG did he do a good job! Orgrimmar prospered like crazy, he practically rebuilt it from the ground up and then built a fortress below. The war effort prospered (war wasn't his idea, I must mention- it was already raging before he took the throne) and the Horde took back lots of land that was taken from them.

He wasn't perfect, not even that good, but he didn't do a lot of the initial bad that turned everyone against him. Stonetalon wasn't his call, and he even showed up to show his disgust at the killing of harmless children and how the military there had thrown away honor. The tauren turning against him wasn't his call, because while he did mess up by dueling Cairne, Magatha was the one that poisoned his blade. He just got blamed for it. And Vol'jin was disloyal from the get-go, which frankly shouldn't fly no matter who the warchief is.

Then, well, I don't know actually, things happened and suddenly he was TOTALLY okay with bombing a city even though he was rabidly against it earlier and I'm lost after that point. I guess he went Macbeth on us and decided hey, everyone already hated him, might as well just try to bring the orcs as far as he could- ...and then Sha happened and he stopped being himself at all, because you don't have any control once Sha happen.

Actually the thing in Stonetalon, David Kossak(the guy that designed that quest and many others) himself said Garrosh didn't do that to save the kids. He was just pissed a mana bomb was gonna be wasted. I believe that was during Crendor's interview with him. So all in all, Garrosh was nasty from the getgo. Never was a good character. He was whiny in outland before. He showed he still was the whiny brat he always was in WoD. He didn't learn. He didn't change.

I'm jumping back in to say that's not the fault of Garrosh's character however, that's the fault of how he was written.

Hands down it was always Green Jesus got the love, Garrosh got shoved in the dirt and had his characterization messed up and his entire purpose became "HURR DURR I WILL BE BIG BAD RAWR"

Which is crummy writing. You see it happen again and again in WoW with characters. Jaina has gone from being someone respectable to a complete 180 not Jaina but some really aggressive mage of death. Sylvanas has been going down the hole since forever--I'm not giving it much longer until we have a patch where we get to raid UC and kill Sylvanas--and I'll bet you'll have to gank Koltira too. I'm calling it now. Wrathion will probaaaaably end up following the path of many characters and become a poorly written bad guy. I'll bet they'll find a way to screw over Vol'jin (Can someone say ANOTHER troll raid? Ugh) too.

Let's face it, Blizz is a big fan of the "Let's turn characters into raging bad guys for no logical reasons lol!" thing.

Junrei wrote: Actually the thing in Stonetalon, David Kossak(the guy that designed that quest and many others) himself said Garrosh didn't do that to save the kids. He was just pissed a mana bomb was gonna be wasted. I believe that was during Crendor's interview with him. So all in all, Garrosh was nasty from the getgo. Never was a good character. He was whiny in outland before. He showed he still was the whiny brat he always was in WoD. He didn't learn. He didn't change.

Oof, I don't want to read his writing, then, if he portrayed Garrosh's intentions that INCREDIBLY badly. Like- seriously, do the quests in Stonetalon and tell me Garrosh was angry about the bomb being wasted. He even quotes Saurfang about honor! He has no reason to do that if he's just upset about the bomb being wasted, it's not like he's hidden that kind of stuff from the players before- and he's not trying to save face, because he's warchief and he can kill you. But no, he just tells you to always act with honor, then leaves.

That entire thing REEKS of horribly done retcon. Makes me wonder if he read his own writing.

Azunara wrote:I'm jumping back in to say that's not the fault of Garrosh's character however, that's the fault of how he was written.

Hands down it was always Green Jesus got the love, Garrosh got shoved in the dirt and had his characterization messed up and his entire purpose became "HURR DURR I WILL BE BIG BAD RAWR"

Which is crummy writing. You see it happen again and again in WoW with characters. Jaina has gone from being someone respectable to a complete 180 not Jaina but some really aggressive mage of death. Sylvanas has been going down the hole since forever--I'm not giving it much longer until we have a patch where we get to raid UC and kill Sylvanas--and I'll bet you'll have to gank Koltira too. I'm calling it now. Wrathion will probaaaaably end up following the path of many characters and become a poorly written bad guy. I'll bet they'll find a way to screw over Vol'jin (Can someone say ANOTHER troll raid? Ugh) too.

Let's face it, Blizz is a big fan of the "Let's turn characters into raging bad guys for no logical reasons lol!" thing.

Well stated. I'm all for giving characters depth but the execution could always use some improvement. No one wants to see their favorite character(s) become another cliched bad guy or raid fodder.

I'm not a Garrosh fan, but I admit I find his story both compelling and infuriating at the same time. One minute I hate the guy and the next I feel sorry for him. The opening cinematic for WoD for example, I was totally onboard as Garrosh prevented his father from drinking the demon blood but then I was facepalming by the end when he made his intentions clear of wanting to lead the orcs in a conquest through Azeroth (Dammit Garrosh! Can't you leave sh*t alone!?). Another moment that I find myself conflicted over is during the Nagrand ending cinematic ... I feel for the poor guy but I'm glad to see him finally go.

Niabi wrote: I feel for the poor guy but I'm glad to see him finally go.

100% with you there! As much as I have STRONG OPINIONS (can you tell) about Garrosh's character, I'm glad to see him gone, because... I think two expansions worth of being the villain is probably enough. Even the Lich King didn't get that much time in the spotlight. And before Garrosh goes even further down the path of over-developed-too-far-written Green Jesus, I'm glad to see him shelved.

I wish his death was different, and I wish this wasn't how it all ended, but just so long as he's gone, I'm pretty content. I'd have loved to see his character handled differently, but at least he's no longer at the mercy of the writers now. And for the love of the gods we won't get another Garrosh expansion, praise the heavens.

LupisDarkmoon wrote:

Niabi wrote: I feel for the poor guy but I'm glad to see him finally go.

100% with you there! As much as I have STRONG OPINIONS (can you tell) about Garrosh's character, I'm glad to see him gone, because... I think two expansions worth of being the villain is probably enough. Even the Lich King didn't get that much time in the spotlight. And before Garrosh goes even further down the path of over-developed-too-far-written Green Jesus, I'm glad to see him shelved.

I wish his death was different, and I wish this wasn't how it all ended, but just so long as he's gone, I'm pretty content. I'd have loved to see his character handled differently, but at least he's no longer at the mercy of the writers now. And for the love of the gods we won't get another Garrosh expansion, praise the heavens.

Just wait next expack will be "wrath of the Lich Garrosh" because he will come back with an army of undead orcs!

Niabi wrote:

Azunara wrote:I'm jumping back in to say that's not the fault of Garrosh's character however, that's the fault of how he was written.

Hands down it was always Green Jesus got the love, Garrosh got shoved in the dirt and had his characterization messed up and his entire purpose became "HURR DURR I WILL BE BIG BAD RAWR"

Which is crummy writing. You see it happen again and again in WoW with characters. Jaina has gone from being someone respectable to a complete 180 not Jaina but some really aggressive mage of death. Sylvanas has been going down the hole since forever--I'm not giving it much longer until we have a patch where we get to raid UC and kill Sylvanas--and I'll bet you'll have to gank Koltira too. I'm calling it now. Wrathion will probaaaaably end up following the path of many characters and become a poorly written bad guy. I'll bet they'll find a way to screw over Vol'jin (Can someone say ANOTHER troll raid? Ugh) too.

Let's face it, Blizz is a big fan of the "Let's turn characters into raging bad guys for no logical reasons lol!" thing.

Well stated. I'm all for giving characters depth but the execution could always use some improvement. No one wants to see their favorite character(s) become another cliched bad guy or raid fodder.

I'm not a Garrosh fan, but I admit I find his story both compelling and infuriating at the same time. One minute I hate the guy and the next I feel sorry for him. The opening cinematic for WoD for example, I was totally onboard as Garrosh prevented his father from drinking the demon blood but then I was facepalming by the end when he made his intentions clear of wanting to lead the orcs in a conquest through Azeroth (Dammit Garrosh! Can't you leave sh*t alone!?). Another moment that I find myself conflicted over is during the Nagrand ending cinematic ... I feel for the poor guy but I'm glad to see him finally go.

I agree with this 100% though I agree with Thrall too. Garrosh chose his own path. Garrosh chose to handle things despite the council of his telling him "dude.....no. Stop that...Bad...no seriously...stop." Thrall isn't saying he isn't the blame at all. He's just saying Garrosh fucked up too all on his own and could've chosen a different path.

http://the-demon-sebastian.tumblr.com/p ... ves-to-die

Comes off a little strong, but a good summery of why I'm so pissed at the Nagrand end scene. ...Actually no, more why I'm just always a little ball of hate when Green Jesus comes into any scene ever.

I don't agree totally with all the points about Garrosh, but I DO agree that Thrall done messed up bigtime- so him getting the kill scene is really just not... the greatest.

LupisDarkmoon wrote:http://the-demon-sebastian.tumblr.com/p ... ves-to-die

Comes off a little strong, but a good summery of why I'm so pissed at the Nagrand end scene. ...Actually no, more why I'm just always a little ball of hate when Green Jesus comes into any scene ever.

I don't agree totally with all the points about Garrosh, but I DO agree that Thrall done messed up bigtime- so him getting the kill scene is really just not... the greatest.

Well I think it's good they had a Horde member do him in and not someone else. Sure there are Horde members who would of been better off doing it but I'm just happy it was done by a Hordeie.

Ironically, this article was posted today and relates to the discussion we've been having. It's just one perspective, but I found it to be extremely persuasive and made me reevaluate my position of Thrall's defense:

http://wow.joystiq.com/2014/09/21/know- ... of-thrall/.

Niabi wrote:Ironically, this article was posted today and relates to the discussion we've been having. It's just one perspective, but I found it to be extremely persuasive and made me reevaluate my position of Thrall's defense:
http://wow.joystiq.com/2014/09/21/know- ... of-thrall/.

While clearly a very strong opinion piece, I thought it was brilliantly written and really enjoyed it. I found myself agreeing with a lot of it. Thanks for linking that

I personally don't agree with either hate-filled articles. Thrall messed up, which he admitted it fully....multiple times(which both articles seem to ignore and that bugs me)..... but the article is missing a lot of Garrosh's own screw ups and trying to blame Thrall for EVERYTHING. Garrosh made his OWN choices. Plain and simple. Grom would've killed him after finding out his son used the Sha to power himself and destroy the land after Grom fought to rid the orcs of demonic taint. Garrosh just did the exact thing his father fought to correct (twice I believe) just with a different substance.

Wain wrote:

Niabi wrote:Ironically, this article was posted today and relates to the discussion we've been having. It's just one perspective, but I found it to be extremely persuasive and made me reevaluate my position of Thrall's defense:
http://wow.joystiq.com/2014/09/21/know- ... of-thrall/.

While clearly a very strong opinion piece, I thought it was brilliantly written and really enjoyed it. I found myself agreeing with a lot of it. Thanks for linking that

I think it made a good argument for Thrall's motivations. However, I do think there's a key aspect of Garrosh's personality that wasn't mentioned. He never got over his inferiority complex. He wasn't just a tiger that was being expected to be a housecat, he was a tiger that was born with a crippled leg that was trying to prove to himself and others that he was the most ferocious tiger. When he talks about things being dishonorable, he's thinking that his authority is being undermined.

The article also doesn't mention old orcs like Saurfang and Eitrigg, being actual orcs from draenor, not supporting Garrosh either since it claims, without any real evidence, that its those kinds of orcs supporting him.

Junrei wrote:Grom would've killed him after finding out his son used the Sha to power himself and destroy the land after Grom fought to rid the orcs of demonic taint. Garrosh just did the exact thing his father fought to correct (twice I believe) just with a different substance.

I'm not so sure on this! Definitely, Grom as we know him wouldn't be pleased, but that's only after he did exactly the same thing Garrosh did and only after INCREDIBLE amounts of slaughter saw the problem. Like father like son, there. And Garrosh had the added issue of being under Sha control at the time, because by the time he was using Sha and Old God power, he was pretty fully under the influence of the Sha of Pride. Honestly, the Old God's heart was far less damaging than the influence of the Sha, because in every case we've seen of Sha influence, it's completely taken over the mind and personality of the person infected.

Plus- well, he wasn't exactly thinking "yes I'm going to destroy the land just like dear old dad". Garrosh was absolutely convinced that he was bringing the Horde to glory. Exactly the same trap Grom fell into, but what he saw was a much different picture- he saw his orcish Horde prospering like they never had before.

It is ironic that he did just what Grom did so long ago, but he had exactly the same motivations and a much stronger (and mind controlling) prompting. He wanted to show everyone what the Horde truly was- just like Grom. He just never realized he was making the same mistake his dad was.

(And of course, AU Grom was absolutely going to drink the demon blood until Garrosh showed up, because he had no reason to make any other decision. It was only Garrosh's interference that made him not make that mistake.)

Okay maybe not kill him....but atleast a bitchslap....with his fist....

Now THAT would probably happen. :,D

Well to be fair Garrosh and Grom are both that kind of person that would not be able to stand being near someone who is like them Well at least when they both where under the influence.

Don't do demon blood kids it's a gateway drug.