WoW Petopia Community

Maybe I've played my warlock for too long, but they all seem very similar in their execution and requirement on the Hunter to react to the various procs as they occur. I'll come completely clean, I'm not totally familiar with how MM is now. I have played it back in TBC and a bit in LK, however my preference has always been for BM.

One thing I am sad to see is that, regardless of which of the 3 tree's it is. They seem to be pushing BM forward (at the moment, and as has been said this is still PTR/BETA and not live yet) again. This maybe a lot to do with how things changed from TBC to LK and their efforts to correct that. I am sure most of us remember how bad warriors had it with rage issues in TBC. But in my opinion its best to wait and see how the spec's play out in the Live build and make the necessary noises then.

(grr rewrote this 5 times and still can't get my point out clearly... ) Makes note... more sleep Makkie!

edit:

IF MM and SV continue to use Kill Command as a focus dump as well as Arcane Shot, then they will have another thing to manage.

I don't like how they put the Improved Kill Command on the first tier of the BM tree. I honestly feel that this should be a 3rd level tier. This would make the buff more a BM only difference. Currently all tree's are likely to grab it after they have placed their 31 points.

Nakari wrote:I'm not seeing BM as having an easier rotation than MM or SV. In fact, they are both very similar:

The way the shot priority plays out is quite different however. With BM you can actually have a pretty regular rotation, the same is not the case for MM. The way in which your shots go together is different and the order they follow is different, resulting in MM being more back-and-forth chaotic and BM being more regular. The key difference is in managing the Improved Steady Shot proc which is something BM and SV do not need to work with.

As for KC and Improved KC, it's pretty much a BM only thing even with the talent being in the first tier. The Focus cost on it is so high that MM and SV can't really afford it, unless Arcane Shot gets so seriously nerfed down that KC, even being more expensive and thus being used less frequently, trumps multiple Arcanes for damage.

Slickrock wrote:
All the cries about pets being too powerful have been heard, they've just had their nails clipped.

Arcane is a last-choice filler now.

Overall a lot of nerfage. Was hunter dps that high?..

Hunter DPS, nay, pet dps WAS that high. In fact it was almost expected for the pets to be "nerf". However, I don't feel right in saying it's a nerf, this is definitely more of a balancing issue then outright "nerf".

Also, do keep in mind that pet scaling was *buffed* on the last build of Beta, which is why that despite the KC nerf the pet numbers jumped up. The PTR is probably a 'nerf' to that extra buff the beta recieved. So I wouldn't go running around thinking end of the world yet for BM's. I can't PTR test at the moment, but I'm sure someone will and will report the numbers from there.

As for MM and SV... well.. I won't comment, because I am not that skilled in those talents and how they work.

Nakari wrote:I'm not seeing BM as having an easier rotation than MM or SV. In fact, they are both very similar:

- All specs use Arcane Shot as filler / focus dump
- MM uses Steady, BM & SV use Cobra for focus regen
- MM uses Chimera Shot, BM uses Kill Command, SV uses Explosive Shot on cooldown
- All specs use Serpent Sting, MM refreshes via Chimera Shot, BM & SV via Cobra Shot
- All have a more or less random proc, Master Marksman for MM, Focus Fire for BM and Lock & Load for SV

SV still has the more difficult rotation, as it has Black Arrow to keep up as much as possible in addition to the above.

Edit: In this comparison I assume KC isn't a button Blizzard would want SV & MM to push (other than with a RiF-proc, which is more of a PVP talent).

^ This. Seriously guys. It's getting ridiculous that I'm seeing people saying that they don't wanna play a hunter now over things that are still being tweaked. It's being slightly overdramatic, dontcha think?

My hunters are both MM and BM. I liked BOTH changes that are happening....yes I like whats happening to MM. MM was THE spec to be in Wrath. It's amazing how many people are throwing a fit cause it'll no longer be the ultimate spec to be. It's evening out. The rotation for MM is not 'chaotic' in any shape or form. It's identical and I've never had any 'chaos' when it comes to the rotation.

And to be quite honest.....I'm glad BM is getting some attention that's long been overdue.

I know I do this alot so I have to apologize Anansi, but I disagree with you. Master Marksman isn't really an errant proc, it's either going to happen after a steady shot or it isn't, and you can tell how many stacks of it you've got. SV's lock and load can be harder to predict, but due to it's high priority nature ((EXPLOSIVE! EXPLOSIVE!)) it pretty much forces it's way into your 'rotation' when it proc's, though yes you do still have to watch the ticks. BM has to pay fairly close attention to pet focus, which means that every five stacks of frenzy more or less requires a focus fire, as well as deciding when best to use fervor and for five and ten mans, when to apply certain buffs if neccesary.

I'm not saying that BM is "OOOHHHH COMPLICATED!" but it does require more attention now. Of the three specs, at the moment I'd say MM is the easiest to play, BM is in the middle, and SV just edges it out by requiring you to count to two and a small bit before firing off that next explosive shot.

Palladiamorsdeus wrote:Master Marksman isn't really an errant proc, it's either going to happen after a steady shot or it isn't, and you can tell how many stacks of it you've got. SV's lock and load can be harder to predict, but due to it's high priority nature ((EXPLOSIVE! EXPLOSIVE!)) it pretty much forces it's way into your 'rotation' when it proc's, though yes you do still have to watch the ticks. BM has to pay fairly close attention to pet focus, which means that every five stacks of frenzy more or less requires a focus fire, as well as deciding when best to use fervor and for five and ten mans, when to apply certain buffs if neccesary.

Except that I mentioned Improved Steady Shot proc, not Master Marksman. Master Marksman is a very simple mechanic. But ISS is much more user-friendly now in that the proc does not have to drop off before being refreshed, it simply needs two consecutive Steadies (I have been testing on the PTR since my last post).

I'm not saying that BM is "OOOHHHH COMPLICATED!" but it does require more attention now. Of the three specs, at the moment I'd say MM is the easiest to play, BM is in the middle, and SV just edges it out by requiring you to count to two and a small bit before firing off that next explosive shot.

BM does require more attention yes, but I find in comparison to MM it's easier, personally speaking. MM has a lot of back and forth between Steadies and Arcane which is annoying while comparatively BM has a more even flow. There's even a built-in notifier of when to use Focus Fire via the new "Power Auras" feature (the same happens with Master Marksman procs).

But Hunter DPS seems to have dropped, I'm averaging out around 6900dps on dummies where I was a couple hundred higher before. Comparatively, my Elemental Shaman DPS is in the 9500-10k range in lesser gear (there's a lot more burst with Elemental so the range is higher). So either Hunters are really low or Elemental Shaman are in for a very painful nerfing!

Anasi: All classes are in for a huge nerfing. XD

But I like my Elemental DPS

I don't like how Spirit Mend costs Focus now either.

Protego wrote:I don't like how Spirit Mend costs Focus now either.

It's only 5 focus for a pretty strong pet heal. I mean, that's not that bad X3 It could've been a lot worse. *tries to be optimistic*

It makes sense for it to cost focus or it would be OP.

I'd like to chime in. Having played all three specs for raids and testing BM and MM on the ptr; the rotations are all pretty equal like what Palladiamorsdeus and Nakari said. This is for the current build:
The main "rotation" would be use your main attack (KC,CS,ES) then dump focus (spam ArcS) then spam steady/cobra until either full focus or main shot off CD. If its main shot use it. If full focus and main shot has 2 sec left, use an ArcS. Then dump Arcshots till empty, spam steady/cobra, main, repeat...pretty simple for all specs with each having its own proc to manage (focus fire, tnt, aimed shot (mm proc)). This is without CDs but that's very situational when optimizing for any spec.
MM on my hunter pulled around 6k dps with no CDs or pet buff and no glyphs. Bm pulled 8k+ same no buffs/glyphs, although i had trouble maintaining SrS (not used to no addons >_< and cobra takes care of that later anyway:P).

So basically its just a numbers thing which should be really easy to tweak honestly. The rotations are fine. A combination of priority, keeping main on CD, and dumping/building focus. Imp SS procs are taken care of easily with this kind of rotation.

P.S. Arc critted for 7k, 2-3k norm, Chimera cirtted 9k, aimed 5-6k, and KC 20k LOL.
Also KC was buffed but BM took a decent hit in 10% AP gone from animal handler, which of course affects everything.

P.S.S. I really hope that 5 focus on Spirit Mend doesn't stick. If anything I hope they remove it and nerf the heal itself instead. It's no longer a smart heal so it'll be manually cast if you want to maximize dps on your pet, since focus cost does add up. It makes the heal less useful and clunky. Either you leave it on for a slight dps loss or u manually cast for situational use. I personally think that a small smart heal that doesn't trade slight dps is the perfect iteration of a non-OP useful SB ability, but again that's just me and I do understand why theyd implement a trade of dps for heals. As it stands SB may be stabled for another expansion.

No! I dont want spirit mend to be nerfed! I'll take the 5 focus(which c'mon, thats not even noticable.) please, thanks!

Heh yea at this point ill take anything just glad I can use BM again (hopefully). I've been dying to use my loque for once other than /afk or wintergrasp faceroll.

i use Loque now but he'll be awesome come cata.

I recall reading somewhere that Blizzard was making MM or SV (think it was MM) into less of a "rotation" spec and more of a "reaction" spec. You use whatever is off cooldown and benefits most at the moment instead of mechanically pressing the same buttons in the same order over and over and over again. Don't know about anyone else, but I think it's a nice refreshing idea, and helps differentiate the specs a bit more.

SpacemaNxSPIFF wrote: The main "rotation" would be use your main attack (KC,CS,ES) then dump focus (spam ArcS) then spam steady/cobra until either full focus or main shot off CD. If its main shot use it. If full focus and main shot has 2 sec left, use an ArcS. Then dump Arcshots till empty, spam steady/cobra, main, repeat...pretty simple for all specs with each having its own proc to manage (focus fire, tnt, aimed shot (mm proc)). This is without CDs but that's very situational when optimizing for any spec.
MM on my hunter pulled around 6k dps with no CDs or pet buff and no glyphs. Bm pulled 8k+ same no buffs/glyphs, although i had trouble maintaining SrS (not used to no addons >_< and cobra takes care of that later anyway:P).

Not quite. The MM situation is more:
HM/Serp Sting>Steady, Steady (to get the ISS proc going), Chimera, Arcane, Arcane, Steady, Arcane, Steady, Steady (possibly a 3rd Steady depending), Chimera, Arcane, Steady, Arcane, Steady, Steady etc.

Where it breaks down is in the Steady/Arcane back and forth and it's very dependent on your Focus regen and Haste rates not to mention any input latency. You don't want to have excess Focus which is the reason for the Steady/Arcane back and forth after Chimera as you should have enough Focus after firing one Steady following Chimera to get an Arcane off before returning to a couple of Steadies to get ready for Chimera. Now if you have latency you can run into trouble because the Arcane may not fire (thus you shoot nothing but Auto) or you think it didn't fire but it was delayed and you end up firing two Arcanes and thus not have enough Focus for Chimera when it's off CD.
But if you spam Steady til your Focus is back at full you're losing DPS as unused Focus is lost DPS.

Before the recent nerfs I was pulling aroung 7k-7300 dps in Marksman and 8k in BM. I haven't tested BM since the PTR nerfs but MM is down to around 6500.

So basically its just a numbers thing which should be really easy to tweak honestly. The rotations are fine. A combination of priority, keeping main on CD, and dumping/building focus. Imp SS procs are taken care of easily with this kind of rotation.

ISS is much better now. Before though the proc needed to drop off completely (usually with about a 1 second buffer afterward) before it could be reapplied and then of course it needed two Steadies which was not always the optimal selection (see the Steady/Arcane back and forth above). With ISS being refreshable even while it's up, it's much easier to manage and ensure a near 100% up time.

Well when you put it that way Space man, no, I don't want it changed from what it is now. Don't be so negative to Spirit Beasts. Geez. 5 Focus is okay.

SpacemaNxSPIFF wrote: P.S.S. I really hope that 5 focus on Spirit Mend doesn't stick. If anything I hope they remove it and nerf the heal itself instead. It's no longer a smart heal so it'll be manually cast if you want to maximize dps on your pet, since focus cost does add up. It makes the heal less useful and clunky. Either you leave it on for a slight dps loss or u manually cast for situational use. I personally think that a small smart heal that doesn't trade slight dps is the perfect iteration of a non-OP useful SB ability, but again that's just me and I do understand why theyd implement a trade of dps for heals. As it stands SB may be stabled for another expansion.

I agree. I'd rather have a slightly smaller smart heal (even with focus), than a slightly larger manual heal (or random heal).

Gimlion wrote:

SpacemaNxSPIFF wrote: P.S.S. I really hope that 5 focus on Spirit Mend doesn't stick. If anything I hope they remove it and nerf the heal itself instead. It's no longer a smart heal so it'll be manually cast if you want to maximize dps on your pet, since focus cost does add up. It makes the heal less useful and clunky. Either you leave it on for a slight dps loss or u manually cast for situational use. I personally think that a small smart heal that doesn't trade slight dps is the perfect iteration of a non-OP useful SB ability, but again that's just me and I do understand why theyd implement a trade of dps for heals. As it stands SB may be stabled for another expansion.

I agree. I'd rather have a slightly smaller smart heal (even with focus), than a slightly larger manual heal (or random heal).

From a few players in beta, that 5 focus isnt even noticed when its used so really you wont notice it, like it costs nothing and regenerating focus isnt hard.