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I like Garrosh's character. I enjoy seeing the "cataclysmic" change from when Thrall was around to Garrosh. They've planned it out very well and have done a great job with npc's and quests that reflect Garrosh's leadership.

Razzy wrote:I like Garrosh's character. I enjoy seeing the "cataclysmic" change from when Thrall was around to Garrosh. They've planned it out very well and have done a great job with npc's and quests that reflect Garrosh's leadership.

Agreed. It's definitely different.

Slickrock wrote:

rubybeam wrote:About Sylvanas there's nothing bad with what she's doing in my opinion. She's simply seeing what's right for her people, the foresaken can't reproduce so she brings dead corpses back to life so that her race can grow. yes it's agasint the laws of nature but the forsaken don't really go with nature do they?, she's actually a good charater from her own point of view I think that's she's much better then garrosh, she actually helps her people garrosh...bleh he wouldn't help a orphan.

So when your Aunt Sue dies are you going to ship her over for "modification"?

She might be doing what she thinks is best for her people, but even as you admit, it's an abomination. That makes it right?

it's right in it's own ways, but also wrong ways you can't just go outright saying it's wrong just because it seems so, you have to add the details yes thier ressurecting people who don't want to be ressurected but can you think of another way to help the forsaken race? It may be 'evil' to you that's fine everyone has thier own opnions i'm not picking on anyone here

rubybeam wrote:it's right in it's own ways, but also wrong ways you can't just go outright saying it's wrong just because it seems so, you have to add the details yes thier ressurecting people who don't want to be ressurected but can you think of another way to help the forsaken race? It may be 'evil' to you that's fine everyone has thier own opnions i'm not picking on anyone here

Well, from a tactical perspective, it's good for her "people". But since even Garrosh didn't want her to do it, it's clear that not all the horde are agreement with her.

In his new role, perhaps Bolovar can do something about her.

And regarding Garrosh, I was getting really tired of the Thrall/Jaina thing. It's a good move for the storyline.

Slickrock wrote:

rubybeam wrote:it's right in it's own ways, but also wrong ways you can't just go outright saying it's wrong just because it seems so, you have to add the details yes thier ressurecting people who don't want to be ressurected but can you think of another way to help the forsaken race? It may be 'evil' to you that's fine everyone has thier own opnions i'm not picking on anyone here

Well, from a tactical perspective, it's good for her "people". But since even Garrosh didn't want her to do it, it's clear that not all the horde are agreement with her.

In his new role, perhaps Bolovar can do something about her.

Well that's fine, everyone is entitled to thier own opinions and people can be that way if they want all I know is that my opnion of sylvanis being 'evil' isn't true

I... I don't hate Garrosh.
In fact, I think I almost kinda like him. *Shields self from incoming rotten fruit pelting*
By all rights I should. A lot of people here bring up a lot of good points. He's a hotheaded ass and is quick to alienate other horde members with his methods and actions. But, still I don't hate him. And I think it's because I think I see what Blizzard is trying to do with him.

Garrosh, first and formost, wants to be an Orcish Hero. When we first meet him, he's sulking around Outlands because up until recently he felt useless. Thrall turns up and kicks Garrosh's arse into gear; reminding him of his bloodline and telling him to make something of himself. So Garrosh goes and does that, drawing upon the past heroes of the Orcs as inspiration for how he should act. Now, the heroes of the orcs we know about... Aren't exactly prime role models, let's face it. Example: Ogrim Doomhammer, a generally awesome guy and one of Thrall's mentors, was responsible for the deaths of well over a thousand humans, elves, dwarves and gnomes in the Second War.
There are only a handful of orcs that we would consider good rolemodels and I'm unsure if Garrosh would have access to their stories in outlands, nor if he'd particuarly care even if he did. The stories of Eitrigg, Saurfang and even Thrall himself are just too recent for the outlands Orcs to know of at the time, considering they've been isolated for the previous, what, 20 years or so? So he molds himself after the bloodthirsty orc leaders of the past.

Secondly, Garrosh wants to amount to something more than just being "The Son of Grom Hellscream". His father's actions are legendary throughout the Horde, even if all he did was kill a great big demon after almost dooming their race again. Still, killing the great big demon was the important part, reinforceing Garrosh's beliefs that a good orcish hero needs to be a war leader first and formost. So he's going out to prove that he's better than his father, charging head first into any situation, almost shouting "Hey, did my dad ever go up against the Lich king? No? Well look at that!"

And how he's been placed in a position of power. Why? Well, because Thrall is half blinded by Garrosh's bloodline and because a lot of orcs generally like what Garrosh is doing. As I said before, the Orcs love them a good fight. The title of their leader is called "Warchief" not "Love and Peacechief" for good reason. Not all orcs natually think this way of course, but the majority do.
Looking back at Garrosh, he's now exacly where he wanted to be since he started on his little quest. He has power over the horde and he feels he has surpassed his father's legacy. Thrall is no longer looking over his shoulder and he is free to mold the horde into the war force he envisions from the tales of the past. However, he's starting to find that his methods aren't working quite as well now that the calming voice of Thrall isn't there to back him up. The Forsaken are starting to raise more of their kind, his rash actions with the Trolls almost costed him their alliance, the Tauren are suffering from the recent loss of their leader and the Blood Elves are.... well, Blood Elves. I'm not entirely too sure they've completely forgiven the orcs for almost taking over their land during the Second War. Also, relations with the Alliance are at an all time low, to the point where a Fourth War might be on the horrizon.

All in all, Garrosh has been set up perfectly for a catastophic fall.

I'm going to bet that something is going to happen sometime soon that will absolutely wreck Garrosh's view on how things should be run. I don't know what that might be, but it's gonna shatter his world. His people may turn on him, or he may have to face some heavy intospection because of this hypothetical event. And he's either going to come out of it wiser, if scarred, or he's going to go berserk because of it.

One thing I'd like to point out. Just because your character is an Orc/Undead/Human/Murloc doesn't mean that they neccissarily agree with the views of their faction leaders. Don't hate your race just because there's turmoil in it at the moment. Maybe they're rallying against the views of their leaders, or distancing themselves from it and becoming closer to another race as a result. I hate to see people loose faith in a character they have just because of one lore figure.

/applaud

Well said, Moonlost.

Probably what the scariest thing about Garrosh is that he acts as if he is a spoiled petulant child with a serious self image problem.
Only people with a poor self image are unable to take constructive criticism and lash out in the way he does.
Add in a superiority complex to try to counteract his self image problem, as well as a good dose of racism and you have the perfect recipe for disaster.

Of course, this will mean an interesting storyline at the least.


As for Sylvanas, she is encountering a problem that she has never dealt with before.
The possible extinction of her people.
Now, I do not claim to understand exactly what is going on in Gilneas, but I do understand that the Undead are not doing to well.
Something about not getting support from the rest of the Horde.

Since the undead cannot reproduce naturally they will "naturally" die out as their numbers dwindle.
So, what she has done was for the survival of the undead race.


I guarantee you this, when your survival, or the survival of those closest to you is in jeopardy, the FIRST thing to go out of the window is "morality."
If history has taught us anything, survival is everything.

You may disagree with me, but do a couple thought experiments.
Put your survival, or the survival of your child or a loved one in jeopardy, and the only way you can save their life, to ease their pain, to take away their tears, is to bash someone over the head and take what is theirs, be it food, or medicine.

Really think about what you would do to stop their pain.
Would you steal? Would you kill? What wouldn't you do?

I would think anyone would be hard pressed to say they would rather watch their child starve to death, or twist in pain and agony than do what has to be done.

Thats what she is doing.
Doing what she has to do to ensure the survival of the Undead race.

Disagree with it, despise it, but understand and relate to it.

Meh, I hate Garrosh b/c he is Hotheaded, an Asshole, and largely aggressive towards the Alliance. However, I LOVE Varian, even though he is seemingly similar. However, Varian has a very strong reason to hate the Horde, as he was a slave in the Orc's gladiator battles for years, and saw the underbelly of their society. Where as Garrosh just hates to hate...

The only Leaders I like are The Bronzebeards, Varian/Jaina, Thrall, and Vol'jin. At least as far as Main races go. I think I'd be more fond of Greymane if he didn't lock his people up behind a wall and Leave the Alliance when they truly needed him. And the others I either hate or just think their boring...

Turgus wrote:As for Sylvanas, she is encountering a problem that she has never dealt with before.
The possible extinction of her people.
Now, I do not claim to understand exactly what is going on in Gilneas, but I do understand that the Undead are not doing to well.
Something about not getting support from the rest of the Horde.

Since the undead cannot reproduce naturally they will "naturally" die out as their numbers dwindle.
So, what she has done was for the survival of the undead race.


I guarantee you this, when your survival, or the survival of those closest to you is in jeopardy, the FIRST thing to go out of the window is "morality."
If history has taught us anything, survival is everything.

You may disagree with me, but do a couple thought experiments.
Put your survival, or the survival of your child or a loved one in jeopardy, and the only way you can save their life, to ease their pain, to take away their tears, is to bash someone over the head and take what is theirs, be it food, or medicine.

Really think about what you would do to stop their pain.
Would you steal? Would you kill? What wouldn't you do?

I would think anyone would be hard pressed to say they would rather watch their child starve to death, or twist in pain and agony than do what has to be done.

Thats what she is doing.
Doing what she has to do to ensure the survival of the Undead race.

Disagree with it, despise it, but understand and relate to it.

You had me until "relate to it"..

Relate implies accept. As alliance, that's something I cannot do.

I understand why she's doing it, but comparing it do starving children is not the same thing. I can understand not wanting your "race" to go extinct, but we aren't talking about a helpless village of families being threatened. Forsaken have no families. Applying the emotions of family and starving children to the "plight" of the forsaken are a false analogy.

Sylvanas is doing the same as Arthas. Raising Alliance human alliance dead to become footsoldiers in her army.

If the Forsaken were to wall themselves off, perhaps I'd leave them alone. But the actions of others will prevent that option.

And let me leave you with this thought... what was your impression the first time you died as alliance in a BG, and an undead rogue started feeding on your corpse? Accept?.. Never.

And let me leave you with this thought... what was your impression the first time you died as alliance in a BG, and an undead rogue started feeding on your corpse? Accept?.. Never.

My impression? "OMG THAT'S AWESOME! I must roll an undead!" *Rolls undead*

Just out of curiousity, Sliprock, have you ever actually played as an Undead, especially now? Have you heard the story from their perspective, or are you basing your opinions solely off of your experiences as an Alliance player?

Just curious. That's all.

Slickrock wrote: Relate implies accept.

That is not what I meant. I meant it more akin to have a deeper understanding.
Maybe this will help.

From http://dictionary.reference.com
re·late   
[ri-leyt] Show IPA
verb, -lat·ed, -lat·ing.
–verb (used with object)
1. to tell; give an account of (an event, circumstance, etc.).
2. to bring into or establish association, connection, or relation: to relate events to probable causes.
–verb (used without object)
3. to have reference (often fol. by to ).
4. to have some relation (often fol. by to ).
5. to establish a social or sympathetic relationship with a person or thing: two sisters unable to relate to each other.

I would have disagree with your statements about the undead.
From the quests I have done, they do have feelings and emotions, and have the same personalities that they did have in life.
They have loved ones, just like the living and while they can't have children after being undead, many did have children in life.

What do you mean by helpless?
Is a woman helpless? A child helpless? An elderly person helpless?
How about an unarmed person? Someone weak or frail? Someone injured or maimed?

The undead have all of these save children. (I don't remember there being any children, but I may be wrong)
If you have done the undead starter quests you will know what I am talking about.

So I reject your statement Slickrock that my analogy is false.

As for the undead rogue eating my corpse... well, I would put it equal to someone druid humping my dead body or dancing on it.

Since the topic of the forsaken has been well and truely brought up, let me give my perspective on that.

Incoming wall of text... again.

First of all, let's put Silvanas' personal motives asside for a moment. Yes I know that was the reason for the Forsaken being discussed in this topic in the first place, but with the way this argument is going at the moment, her own reasons for increasing her army are kinda moot. We've started treading into the waters of morality. And I'd like to point out that the morality issues are why the Horde are so much more interesting to me than the Alliance at this point in time (even though I do loves me my Alliance).

The Forsaken are not a rase in of themselves so much as they are a faction. The Forsaken are made of a motley of races. Predominately Humans and High/Blood Elves, but we've also seen Forsaken that were formerly Orcs for example. The only requirements for being Forsaken are 1: You are an intelligent and free-thinking undead, and 2: you have sworn allegiance to Sylvanas. This isn't really important in of itself, but I felt the point required some clarification.

So, onto the meat of the subject. The Forsaken are cursed to a horrible un-life. They have the memories of their past lives and the horrible curse of knowing that so many of the things they once enjoyed in that life they will never be able to experience again. Eating and drinking, sleeping and dreaming, arguably touch and other senses are now muted to them. Their own bodies decay, although one may recude the decaying effect with a lot of care. It's possible they live in a constant state of pain because of this (I think that although this could be interesting, it's also highly unlikely beyond a few individuals). Some of them grow to accept their new life, others are resentful and bitter because it. Still more seek redemption, believeing their new existance to be a blot upon Azeroth.

Knowing that by raising a corpse you are dooming it to this fate, is it ethically sound to do so? Does the needs of the entire faction of the Forsaken outweigh the needs of a singular person? For that matter, should a faction comprised entirely of people suffering in some fashion perpetuate itself at all?

One last point. It's been said that the Forsaken need this to continue existing, to perpetuate themselves. But is this really true? Undead do not die of old age. Also, it takes a lot of effort to truely kill one; burning the corpse or mincing it into a fine paste. Anything short of that and the Forsaken can be stitched up again, with no ill effects other than said Forsaken being a little pissed at the person who dismembered them in the first place.

Well said, Moonlost. You're quite the peaceful guru. I respect that a lot.

In my opinion they Thrall should have left Vul jin in charge. Hes a little less happyness and love then Thrall but ALOT less moronic and bloodthirsty then Garrosh.

Taluwen wrote:Well said, Moonlost. You're quite the peaceful guru. I respect that a lot.

Thank you for the compliment.
Although I'm not quite sure I'd describe myself that way. I just enjoy thinking much too deep about otherwise simple subjects. Complex characters and moral issues fascinate me, I love exploring them when I can and then bringing them up for other people to consider.

Two days ago I would have said I outright loathe Garrosh Hellscream (although he is an excellent driving force for a story, which is what we need. There really isn't a story without conflict).

I still don't like him as a character. Why? He's hot-headed, and he holds a grudge. I stated something similar in another thread, but basically long story short, it's really, really dangerous to put somebody who has vendetta issues and leaps before he looks into a position of power. As a single person, fine, whatever...they're not good traits, but if he messes up the only person he can hurt is himself. But when he's in charge of six allied races composed of thousands of people each...if he messes up, a lot of people are going to die. He can learn from his mistakes, but people will still be dead (or re-dead, in the case of the Forsaken).

That said, after doing the Stonetalon quests, I have a little more respect for the guy. I think Moonlost made an excellent point: Garrosh is trying to be his idealistic vision of how something SHOULD be. Not only that, he's been rather thrown into it. He's made too many changes at once, which is definitely screams of his hot-headed impulsiveness, and he's not handling things well, but I think this is largely a matter of mixed messages and a lack of experience. No matter how many battles and such he's been in, he doesn't strike me as terribly experienced when it comes to inter-racial relations, and I think it's going to cost him a lot to learn before he can remedy that. What Garrosh has to LEARN is that he has to think for more than just himself and the name he's living under now--he has a whole Horde to support. And he has to learn how to do this before he destroys it due to the heavy learning curve.

Moonlost wrote: I'm going to bet that something is going to happen sometime soon that will absolutely wreck Garrosh's view on how things should be run. I don't know what that might be, but it's gonna shatter his world. His people may turn on him, or he may have to face some heavy intospection because of this hypothetical event. And he's either going to come out of it wiser, if scarred, or he's going to go berserk because of it.

I think this is a FANTASTIC point. And probably going to happen. Everything has been set up right now so that the pressure is building like crazy. A couple patches down the line, I think it's going to be too much, and something is going to burst. He'll have to pay for it and learn from it, one way or the other. Here's hoping he'll cool down and get a little wiser because of it.

One thing I'd like to point out. Just because your character is an Orc/Undead/Human/Murloc doesn't mean that they neccissarily agree with the views of their faction leaders. Don't hate your race just because there's turmoil in it at the moment. Maybe they're rallying against the views of their leaders, or distancing themselves from it and becoming closer to another race as a result. I hate to see people loose faith in a character they have just because of one lore figure.

Also a fantastic point. Paragraph speaks for itself.

I'm not even going to open the whole can of worms regarding Sylvanas and the whole morality issue. I think there's enough back-and-forth shouting going on about it as it is. I will, however, point out that the Forsaken (unlike the vast majority of the Scourge, disregarding the more intelligent creations like Death Knights or Liches) have two things that qualify them for sentience: free will, and emotions. They are not being compelled mentally to take any actions by some higher power, and canonically speaking there have been plenty of quests, even pre-Shattering, in which the Forsaken expressed real emotions outside the 'malicious' spectrum. On this level they're much the same as any other race; humans, trolls, dwarves, tauren, etc etc, all also have the capacity to think for themselves and to feel emotions.

Trying to stay as factual as possible with the Forsaken for this one. Obviously, my opinion and others' opinions will not ever match. But things in-game can be considered facts I suppose

~VelkynKarma

Well said Redith. Vol'Jin woulda' been perfect. Or Sylvanas. Seriously, if she had been left in charge the Horde would rule Azeroth by now. Just look at what she has managed with "just" the undead army!