WoW Petopia Community

SylviaDragon wrote:On a side note, I really hope they keep wingclip. Even thought we will be able to fire at point blank we are still supposed to do ranged dps and its nice to have an emergency slow to help you get away from those crushing melee attacks.

The only difference between concussive shot and wing clip is melee vs. ranged. With no melee and all ranged, the two spells are basically the same thing.

Kalliope wrote:

SylviaDragon wrote:On a side note, I really hope they keep wingclip. Even thought we will be able to fire at point blank we are still supposed to do ranged dps and its nice to have an emergency slow to help you get away from those crushing melee attacks.

The only difference between concussive shot and wing clip is melee vs. ranged. With no melee and all ranged, the two spells are basically the same thing.

Exactly. :3

Kalliope wrote:The only difference between concussive shot and wing clip is melee vs. ranged. With no melee and all ranged, the two spells are basically the same thing.

They are now, but I remember a time when I used to get pretty frustrated that I couldn't concussive shot something if I'd already wing clipped it -- "A more powerful spell is already active"

Kalliope wrote:Which was why I said:

Kalliope wrote:And your point about MoP is what we've been saying - we won't have melee abilities and therefore will not need stat sticks. It's that simple.

Right after that.

Then you already knew I'd responded to the comment about ZS and it's melee stats, so why ask? Honestly that's irrelevant to begin with - I've never said we need stat sticks.

In fact going off the below you seem to understand what I really am getting at

Kalliope wrote:There is already no need for melee weapons for us in MoP (as currently planned) because we have no melee range abilities. Yes, I'm being redundant here, because the decisions we're talking about here are already cosmetic one. We traded melee abilities for no minimum range. That has nothing to do with looks and everything to do with functionality.

As long as you're slicing out the looks factor, yes - from a standpoint of pure functionality you're right. Removing the dead zone also removes the ~technical~ need for melee weapons. I've never said otherwise.

But that's why I made the m.u.d. analogy - if looks truly were not a factor in wow, that would be the end of it, but obviously that is not the case. Even the most hardbitten min-maxer would be unlikely to keep playing for long if for example they changed our toons to black silhouettes.

Kalliope wrote:However, we have no idea what visual we're going to be left with, so all of this complaining is for naught. We don't currently have our ranged weapons on our backs, so clearly, something different would have to be done, be it said ranged weapon, a quiver, some automatic visual of something else (perhaps even a default), or nothing at all.

Yes let's not say anything negative until it's already gone live and things are largely set in stone, that's the best time to speak up after all.

To the contrary now is the best time to speak up - as long as the focus is on getting the thoughts out there soon enough to have the most impact and allowing for the possibility / hope that they will result in change. It would be different if I was writing MoP off prematurely but I've already acknowledged repeatedly that they are very much still in the design phase and lots can (and will) change between now and 5.0.

Hopefully they will do something more than quivers, but honestly even with ranged weapons across the back, as others have pointed out many are not optimized for this the way melee weapons are. Plus many are simply going to find it visually odd not to be using melee weapons in melee.

Kalliope wrote:If having a melee weapon on your back is that important to you, you can always roll a melee class too.

Now there's a great solution. Problem solved I guess?

Kalliope wrote:What part of "we won't have melee abilities" isn't getting through to you? :/

What part of "melee weapons become silly without abilities" isn't getting through to you?

Worba wrote:Then you already knew I'd responded to the comment about ZS and it's melee stats, so why ask? Honestly that's irrelevant to begin with - I've never said we need stat sticks.

The ZS's melee stats are terrible for hunters anyway, so I'm not sure what point you were attempting to make regarding it, since it's not something a non-skinner hunter would ever actually need for anything beyond transmog.

Worba wrote:As long as you're slicing out the looks factor, yes - from a standpoint of pure functionality you're right. Removing the dead zone also removes the ~technical~ need for melee weapons. I've never said otherwise.

But that's why I made the m.u.d. analogy - if looks truly were not a factor in wow, that would be the end of it, but obviously that is not the case. Even the most hardbitten min-maxer would be unlikely to keep playing for long if for example they changed our toons to black silhouettes.

Removing our melee weapons is hardly making our characters "black silhouettes," so you're playing to an extreme here. That's where the fearmongering comes in, especially since you (and other players) have no idea what we're going to have on our backs.

It has nothing to do with "not saying anything negative until it's already gone live." You could just say "I would prefer to keep a melee weapon on my back" and leave it at that. Instead, you're spiraling off into wanting said weapon to have a function as well, which would require balancing hunters differently than other classes - and that's not happening, because it's a design headache. (Hell, hunters are already extremely different than other classes, since we're the only ranged physical class, and a pet class at that; that's enough headache right there.) No one else is going to have a ranged and melee slot; why should we? That's backtracking. Let's work with the new system, not against it.

Here's an idea: link a matching stat stick appearance to each ranged weapon. Chances are, there's a matching two hander in each tier (even the green quality tier) to go with it. Yes, it's a lot of work initially to hunt down the matches, but once the links have been made, it'd be easy to add them going forward.

And who said Live was always set in stone? Last I checked, Blizz makes changes all the time to Live servers.

*wanders off to the fainting clinic to find a couch to nap on*

Kalliope wrote:The ZS's melee stats are terrible for hunters anyway, so I'm not sure what point you were attempting to make regarding it, since it's not something a non-skinner hunter would ever actually need for anything beyond transmog.

It's more basic than that. A melee weapon offers more than stats, as was already pointed out - it unlocks abilities and allows autoattack, e.g. provides some rationale for having melee weapons, which however limited, does make melee weapons feel more than just cosmetic.

Kalliope wrote:Removing our melee weapons is hardly making our characters "black silhouettes," so you're playing to an extreme here. That's where the fearmongering comes in, especially since you (and other players) have no idea what we're going to have on our backs.

Questioning the direction hunters thus far have taken with 5.0 falls a few pegs short of "fearmongering"; that is breathless and overheated rhetoric.

Kalliope wrote:It has nothing to do with "not saying anything negative until it's already gone live." You could just say "I would prefer to keep a melee weapon on my back" and leave it at that. Instead, you're spiraling off into wanting said weapon to have a function as well, which would require balancing hunters differently than other classes - and that's not happening, because it's a design headache. (Hell, hunters are already extremely different than other classes, since we're the only ranged physical class, and a pet class at that; that's enough headache right there.) No one else is going to have a ranged and melee slot; why should we? That's backtracking. Let's work with the new system, not against it.

Lots of things are design headaches, but that by itself does not prevent them from happening - or do you now speak for Blizzard? The reason I've suggested leaving the door open to melee weapons having some actual utility is simply because the current angle of MH swapping leaves a bunch of loose ends (constantly swapping them in and out via macro, having to devote extra bag space, etc etc), so alternatives should be considered - my suggestion being just one such.

Kalliope wrote:Here's an idea: link a matching stat stick appearance to each ranged weapon. Chances are, there's a matching two hander in each tier (even the green quality tier) to go with it. Yes, it's a lot of work initially to hunt down the matches, but once the links have been made, it'd be easy to add them going forward.

And that's a constructive idea - that gives you the look without the kludgy macro swapping, allows it to work in MH and retire the ranged slot, avoids competition between melee / ranged, avoids needless bagspace consumption - I'd suggested something very similar a little while ago in fact. But yeah something like that would certainly be a big improvement over what's ~currently~ on the table, in my view.

EDIT: and it should automatically switch to melee strikes with that weapon, when you're in close range (visually I mean). Also for bonus points, maybe add a display setting that lets you display one of the following across your back: "built-in melee weapon" / ranged weapon / quiver / nothing. And in some cases, for variety, have a pair of dual wielders appear instead of a 2h'er.

Cutting through petty arguments to get to the useful stuff....

Worba wrote:

Kalliope wrote:It has nothing to do with "not saying anything negative until it's already gone live." You could just say "I would prefer to keep a melee weapon on my back" and leave it at that. Instead, you're spiraling off into wanting said weapon to have a function as well, which would require balancing hunters differently than other classes - and that's not happening, because it's a design headache. (Hell, hunters are already extremely different than other classes, since we're the only ranged physical class, and a pet class at that; that's enough headache right there.) No one else is going to have a ranged and melee slot; why should we? That's backtracking. Let's work with the new system, not against it.

Lots of things are design headaches, but that by itself does not prevent them from happening - or do you now speak for Blizzard? The reason I've suggested leaving the door open to melee weapons having some actual utility is simply because the current angle of MH swapping leaves a bunch of loose ends (constantly swapping them in and out via macro, having to devote extra bag space, etc etc), so alternatives should be considered - my suggestion being just one such.

No, I'm not speaking for Blizzard. I am pointing out that you're asking Blizzard to regard hunters differently than other classes just because you like having a melee weapon on your back, which seems rather shortsighted, at least in my opinion. You're entitled to think whatever you want. What I am saying is that it is highly unlikely that this particular suggestion would be taken as a likely solution for the reason I gave.

That's why I made the suggestion I did; it blends with the new system, rather than working against it.

Logically if it's too soon to say what will and won't make it into the final cut, then "shortsighted" doesn't even enter into it, and it's premature to speculate on design times, or on what "fits" or "blends" with a system that's still evolving.

*shrug* The plan right now is to not have a ranged weapon slot. Logically, giving one class (hunters) both melee and ranged weapons isn't going to fit with the new proposed system as it stands right now, regardless of how said system evolves.

As you noted yourself, it's premature to be making speculations about where the system will end up - plans change as part of evolution. What stands right now by no means has to be what stands tomorrow or next month.

And imbalance is imbalance, regardless of speculation, finalization, or not.

But hey, let's agree to disagree.

I just want to see my ranged weapon on my back! All this other crap ya'll are gibbering on about is fluff to me.

Seriously though, I'm happy for all you folks that were upset at the idea of losing your melee weapons as a cosmetic thing. I just hope that little ol' me gets to see her gun/bow/xbow on her back (almost typed xbox, lol).

Rhyela wrote:I just want to see my ranged weapon on my back! All this other crap ya'll are gibbering on about is fluff to me. =

This, so much this.

It still amazes me that RP cosmetics are more important it seems to the majority here than functionality. The removal of the deadzone will be a godsend, and it will improve gameplay, both in PVE and PVP.

Hopefully we'll get the weapons and/or quivers and ammo pouches on our backs.

We are hunters, we don't need to be carrying around Thunderfurries or squid-sticks.

My personal preference would be getting to choose a quiver - and naturally, have lots more quiver options to choose from. Although hey, the epic one is green, so I'm kind of set.

Slickrock wrote:We are hunters, we don't need to be carrying around squid-sticks.

The squid-sticks are for our non-combat needs.

Slickrock wrote:

Rhyela wrote:I just want to see my ranged weapon on my back! All this other crap ya'll are gibbering on about is fluff to me. =

This, so much this.

It still amazes me that RP cosmetics are more important it seems to the majority here than functionality. The removal of the deadzone will be a godsend, and it will improve gameplay, both in PVE and PVP.

Hopefully we'll get the weapons and/or quivers and ammo pouches on our backs.

We are hunters, we don't need to be carrying around Thunderfurries or squid-sticks.

Right because whacking monsters with our bows when cornered at melee range is so much cooler.

And let's remember no one's talking about removing the dead zone (from 5.0)

lawl i think worba is not trying to argue with anybody but simply suggest ideas of his own while everyone is saying otherwise, i wont disagree theres an argument going on and i agree there should be a way for melee weapons to have some sort of utility aside from damage like idk an idle animation when ur holding it maybe after a while u will swing ur weapon around in boredom.

and it would obviously suck for the hunters out there that still dual wield lol, remember the old ammo slots that would allow u to fire ur ranged weapons well they could bring back the old ammo slot but instead of it bein used for ammo u would equip ur melee weapon in it and it would allow u to switch weapons effortlessly without a macro just like u can now but its just a suggestion.

GormanGhaste wrote:

Slickrock wrote:We are hunters, we don't need to be carrying around squid-sticks.

The squid-sticks are for our non-combat needs.

What happens in Goldshire stays in Goldshire...