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Well, at least he found a way for Horde to win AV.

Wait, what? Joking. Multiboxers are a bit lame, but generally VERY easy to counter, so I don't care... normally. But what's being said here is essentially that he's parking all 40 of his chars on defense, in Drek's room. That means that the Alliance can't win via reinforcements (yes, theoretically focusing fire on one of his chars at a time, or their leader, works, but how easy will that be with 40 of his AoEing?), and can't win by killing the boss, which leads to (as mentioned) 2 hours of bosheet.

I would think that if he's not playing the map properly, and disrupting it, it would count as the same as a premade doing it: zone disruption. It doesn't have anything to do with the fact that he's multiboxing--if he were going for objectives, fine. The lines drawn are fine when it comes to this sort of thing, but I know for a fact that GMs DO take action against the RealID premades that take all but 1 AV graveyard and then AoE camp it (attaining 1000+ HKs per BG), so I can't see them standing for this sort of behavior.

TL;DR: it's not the multiboxing that's an issue here, it's the disruption of the game, imo, and should not be tolerated. Report it--not for multiboxing, but for stagnating the game--and see what the GM says. Maybe they'll at least tell him to stop dicking around.

Acherontia wrote:Well, at least he found a way for Horde to win AV.

Wait, what? Joking. Multiboxers are a bit lame, but generally VERY easy to counter, so I don't care... normally. But what's being said here is essentially that he's parking all 40 of his chars on defense, in Drek's room. That means that the Alliance can't win via reinforcements (yes, theoretically focusing fire on one of his chars at a time, or their leader, works, but how easy will that be with 40 of his AoEing?), and can't win by killing the boss, which leads to (as mentioned) 2 hours of bosheet.

I would think that if he's not playing the map properly, and disrupting it, it would count as the same as a premade doing it: zone disruption. It doesn't have anything to do with the fact that he's multiboxing--if he were going for objectives, fine. The lines drawn are fine when it comes to this sort of thing, but I know for a fact that GMs DO take action against the RealID premades that take all but 1 AV graveyard and then AoE camp it (attaining 1000+ HKs per BG), so I can't see them standing for this sort of behavior.

TL;DR: it's not the multiboxing that's an issue here, it's the disruption of the game, imo, and should not be tolerated. Report it--not for multiboxing, but for stagnating the game--and see what the GM says. Maybe they'll at least tell him to stop dicking around.

^ This 100%

I tend to agree also - I think people got sort of derailed with categorical condemnations of multiboxers or largescale multiboxers.

Think of a single toon who levels to 85 and then goes around killing lower lvl opposite faction quest givers and flight masters for fun. He has a right to be lvl 85 - he put in the time to get there. And being lvl 85 makes it possible to leave a trail of ruin at the quest hubs (particularly if no opposing high lvl toons are around to stop him, or by the time they arrive he's moved on, etc - you get the picture) - but that doesn't give him the right to do it; intentionally disrupting the game is wrong.

Similarly, if someone has the means and desire and wants to multibox, I have no problem with that and I've never run into a rude one (others may have, this is just my personal experience). If he wants to solo dungeons / raids / etc I say more power to him whether he has 10, 30 or 100 toons. And having all those toons certainly gives the player the means to disrupt the game, but if actually he chooses to do so, that would be wrong.

And I do think the cited BG behavior was disruptive and wrong, and therefore a misuse of multiboxing - it's a little like how technically two arena teams can agree that one will throw the fight so the other can get higher ranking, but if they get caught at it, my understanding is that both would be busted. It's not really something you can nail down to an exact metric, like X is too many toons for multiboxing in PVP or w/e, but that's not to say a GM can't look into it and rule that the player was generally acting in bad faith and causing an unacceptable BG disruption.

My 0.2 anyway.

he probably MAKES money by doing this by selling the toons... I knew a multiboxer who would multibox, get tons of points up to max gear the toons and BAM- instant few thousand bucks per toon.

That put more salt in the wound for me at the time

not saying this guy does, per se, but is a possibility

If he has the money and will to do something like this, just let him. If you dont like it, just ignore one of his toons and then quit the BG. This whole discussion is rather preposterous. <.<

Worba wrote:I tend to agree also - I think people got sort of derailed with categorical condemnations of multiboxers or largescale multiboxers.

Think of a single toon who levels to 85 and then goes around killing lower lvl opposite faction quest givers and flight masters for fun. He has a right to be lvl 85 - he put in the time to get there. And being lvl 85 makes it possible to leave a trail of ruin at the quest hubs (particularly if no opposing high lvl toons are around to stop him, or by the time they arrive he's moved on, etc - you get the picture) - but that doesn't give him the right to do it; intentionally disrupting the game is wrong.

Similarly, if someone has the means and desire and wants to multibox, I have no problem with that and I've never run into a rude one (others may have, this is just my personal experience). If he wants to solo dungeons / raids / etc I say more power to him whether he has 10, 30 or 100 toons. And having all those toons certainly gives the player the means to disrupt the game, but if actually he chooses to do so, that would be wrong.

And I do think the cited BG behavior was disruptive and wrong, and therefore a misuse of multiboxing - it's a little like how technically two arena teams can agree that one will throw the fight so the other can get higher ranking, but if they get caught at it, my understanding is that both would be busted. It's not really something you can nail down to an exact metric, like X is too many toons for multiboxing in PVP or w/e, but that's not to say a GM can't look into it and rule that the player was generally acting in bad faith and causing an unacceptable BG disruption.

My 0.2 anyway.

Very well said.

You can't ignore an opposing player in battlegrounds. Otherwise, yes, that would be the easy option.

TBH, I'm not entirely sure you can /ignore ANYONE from a battlegroup, only those of the same faction, in instances.

Ive ignored people from BGs. Just /ignore and then their character name and server.

/nod, it is possible to ignore ally and horde alike since both can spam your chat verbally and emotically

Galaxy wrote:he probably MAKES money by doing this by selling the toons... I knew a multiboxer who would multibox, get tons of points up to max gear the toons and BAM- instant few thousand bucks per toon.

That put more salt in the wound for me at the time

not saying this guy does, per se, but is a possibility

This guys name is Prepared. He doesn't sell the characters, he doesn't need to.

Acherontia wrote:Well, at least he found a way for Horde to win AV.

Wait, what? Joking. Multiboxers are a bit lame, but generally VERY easy to counter, so I don't care... normally. But what's being said here is essentially that he's parking all 40 of his chars on defense, in Drek's room. That means that the Alliance can't win via reinforcements (yes, theoretically focusing fire on one of his chars at a time, or their leader, works, but how easy will that be with 40 of his AoEing?), and can't win by killing the boss, which leads to (as mentioned) 2 hours of bosheet.

I would think that if he's not playing the map properly, and disrupting it, it would count as the same as a premade doing it: zone disruption. It doesn't have anything to do with the fact that he's multiboxing--if he were going for objectives, fine. The lines drawn are fine when it comes to this sort of thing, but I know for a fact that GMs DO take action against the RealID premades that take all but 1 AV graveyard and then AoE camp it (attaining 1000+ HKs per BG), so I can't see them standing for this sort of behavior.

TL;DR: it's not the multiboxing that's an issue here, it's the disruption of the game, imo, and should not be tolerated. Report it--not for multiboxing, but for stagnating the game--and see what the GM says. Maybe they'll at least tell him to stop dicking around.

Defending your general IS accepted gameplay, it is part of the objectives.
It may not be the fastest way to win but it is one of the possible ways to do it.

Even if a premade did it, they are engaging in PvP while defending the most important "node" in the battleground. A legitimate tactic intended by Blizzard. No disruption.

Worba wrote:I tend to agree also - I think people got sort of derailed with categorical condemnations of multiboxers or largescale multiboxers.

Think of a single toon who levels to 85 and then goes around killing lower lvl opposite faction quest givers and flight masters for fun. He has a right to be lvl 85 - he put in the time to get there. And being lvl 85 makes it possible to leave a trail of ruin at the quest hubs (particularly if no opposing high lvl toons are around to stop him, or by the time they arrive he's moved on, etc - you get the picture) - but that doesn't give him the right to do it; intentionally disrupting the game is wrong.

Similarly, if someone has the means and desire and wants to multibox, I have no problem with that and I've never run into a rude one (others may have, this is just my personal experience). If he wants to solo dungeons / raids / etc I say more power to him whether he has 10, 30 or 100 toons. And having all those toons certainly gives the player the means to disrupt the game, but if actually he chooses to do so, that would be wrong.

And I do think the cited BG behavior was disruptive and wrong, and therefore a misuse of multiboxing - it's a little like how technically two arena teams can agree that one will throw the fight so the other can get higher ranking, but if they get caught at it, my understanding is that both would be busted. It's not really something you can nail down to an exact metric, like X is too many toons for multiboxing in PVP or w/e, but that's not to say a GM can't look into it and rule that the player was generally acting in bad faith and causing an unacceptable BG disruption.

My 0.2 anyway.

The level 85 does have the right to do it. You have the right to do anything as long as there is a PvP resolution and is not an exploit or hack.
Blizzard isn't against griefing behavior when there's a PvP remedy, if you can get together a group of allies to trounce the offending party or player the problem is solved, but when the griefer is impossible to attack (is not set PvP, or is of the same faction as his targets), there is no such PvP remedy, then it becomes a problem.

Likewise, if that 40 boxer decides to go visit a city, he has the RIGHT to do it, as there is a PvP remedy available to the other faction. If enough players get together to fight him (which has been done before), the problem is solved. While you might think this is "dishonorable", blizzard considers them legit PvP tactics.
Blizzards PvP Policy
If the 85 or the boxer was doing this on a PvE server it would probably be a different situation. (even then, you still have the ability to kill him or completely avoid him)

Combat related (PvP or PvE), anything you do not have the right to do in this game you literally cant do because the game is coded to prevent it or its done through exploitation/hacks.

Wintrading is the abuse of the competitive PvP system (an exploit), there is no way for other players to stop it. It would be like players throwing Starcraft 2 matches at the MLG or GSL tournaments (or any competitive tournament for any game). You are comparing two completely different things.

Having the right to do something doesn't mean you should do it. That's using the loopholes in the rules to your advantage. I'm sure if enough people started to make a big fuss over the excessive use of mulitboxing, then maybe Blizzard who re think the rules and rights on this. Regardless of if they have the right to or not, they have an unfair advantage in the game and are making the game undesirable for others. I have the right to do many things, doesn't mean I take full advantage of it.

AdamSavage wrote:Having the right to do something doesn't mean you should do it. That's using the loopholes in the rules to your advantage. I'm sure if enough people started to make a big fuss over the excessive use of mulitboxing, then maybe Blizzard who re think the rules and rights on this. Regardless of if they have the right to or not, they have an unfair advantage in the game and are making the game undesirable for others. I have the right to do many things, doesn't mean I take full advantage of it.

Exactly.

I have the right to pull, or let my pet use growl, or even misdirect onto the healer in dungeons. Those abilities were given to me, by Blizzard, to be used. It doesn't mean I would do any of those though, as it's clearly a misuse of the abilities.

The best revenge would be a combo of all rogues and warlocks. Could even toss in some priest for mind control. Heck even just 40 rogues only could mess him up badly.

Quite honestly, it'd take an extremely coordinated and skilled group to defeat this guy. I think a large group of WL and Priests would do damage... MC the head of the group, Aredone, then fear bomb the rest and burn the MC'd character before he could recuperate. This would be even easier once WLs get the AOE fear in MoP... Or a Porcupine's AoE sleeper quills.

I still don't think this should be allowed, he basically receives his PvP gear for free, since he just sits and reaps endless honor...

Kiingeh wrote: Defending your general IS accepted gameplay, it is part of the objectives.
It may not be the fastest way to win but it is one of the possible ways to do it.

Even if a premade did it, they are engaging in PvP while defending the most important "node" in the battleground. A legitimate tactic intended by Blizzard. No disruption.

Camping a single graveyard in order to win by reinforcements is possible too, but again is zone disruption and will be punished. What he's doing = standoff. The Alliance isn't stupid enough to charge in and die, and thus they just stand outside waiting and swearing, or get AoE'd if they go in. There is NO PvP recourse. How do you get him out if you get killed the second you're in LoS? How can you win, except by deliberately dying to him until the reinforcement cap is reached? The answer is, there is no way.

I definitely disagree that this is a legit tactic, and I'm willing to bet that a GM would say the same.

That wasn't my point, though--the point was that the problem doesn't lie with the fact that he's a multiboxer, it lies with the tactic he's employing. So whether GMs would crack down or not isn't even the issue, it's just the fact that the multiboxing doesn't have a whole lot of effect aside from very good coordination.

Acherontia wrote:

Kiingeh wrote: Defending your general IS accepted gameplay, it is part of the objectives.
It may not be the fastest way to win but it is one of the possible ways to do it.

Even if a premade did it, they are engaging in PvP while defending the most important "node" in the battleground. A legitimate tactic intended by Blizzard. No disruption.

Camping a single graveyard in order to win by reinforcements is possible too, but again is zone disruption and will be punished. What he's doing = standoff. The Alliance isn't stupid enough to charge in and die, and thus they just stand outside waiting and swearing, or get AoE'd if they go in. There is NO PvP recourse. How do you get him out if you get killed the second you're in LoS? How can you win, except by deliberately dying to him until the reinforcement cap is reached? The answer is, there is no way.

I definitely disagree that this is a legit tactic, and I'm willing to bet that a GM would say the same.

That wasn't my point, though--the point was that the problem doesn't lie with the fact that he's a multiboxer, it lies with the tactic he's employing. So whether GMs would crack down or not isn't even the issue, it's just the fact that the multiboxing doesn't have a whole lot of effect aside from very good coordination.

That is your opinion and thankfully one Blizzard doesn't share, if it wasn't a legitimate tactic, he would be banned. He has done this so many times now and I bet this guy has a mountain of tickets against him. The fact hes still around already shows you've lost the bet.
I've played countless games where the "standoff" has occurred on the Dun'baldar bridge after the horde team defended Galv or at the choke point in frostwolf keep between the two towers. This tactic is called turtling. It happens all the time. It doesn't matter where its happening or how many players are involved, it's a legitimate tactic.

Also there are ways to kill him, I have played him a few times, some we lose, some we win. if you just run in there 1 at a time, of course you will lose. If you gather everyone and run in together you can wipe him, you then have a time limit to kill the boss before he comes back and it was actually pretty fun. Of course its going to be hard, that's the nature of the turtle, that's why it works so well.

As for camping a single graveyard, even premades do this. The QQ premades do this often during the AV and IoC weekends and the horde equivalent also do it. Farming graveyards happens in every BG. If Blizzard didn't want it to happen, they could stop it. It's absolute shit for the team getting farmed but you are not forced to stay.

Gimlion wrote:Quite honestly, it'd take an extremely coordinated and skilled group to defeat this guy. I think a large group of WL and Priests would do damage... MC the head of the group, Aredone, then fear bomb the rest and burn the MC'd character before he could recuperate. This would be even easier once WLs get the AOE fear in MoP... Or a Porcupine's AoE sleeper quills.

I still don't think this should be allowed, he basically receives his PvP gear for free, since he just sits and reaps endless honor...

You don't have to be super skilled or coordinated, you will need a bit of coordination of course.
Mind controlling the leader will not do much, he can change leaders with a single button. CC the rest of his crew as much as you can (a druids AoE silence works wonders against him).

AdamSavage wrote:Having the right to do something doesn't mean you should do it. That's using the loopholes in the rules to your advantage. I'm sure if enough people started to make a big fuss over the excessive use of mulitboxing, then maybe Blizzard who re think the rules and rights on this. Regardless of if they have the right to or not, they have an unfair advantage in the game and are making the game undesirable for others. I have the right to do many things, doesn't mean I take full advantage of it.

Having the right to do something means there are no rules against it, you aren't taking advantage of a loophole, you are doing exactly what blizzard intended you to do. If they didn't intend you to multibox, it would be reportable, if they didn't intend you to lay waste to a quest hub in a lowbie zone, they wouldn't let you do it.
They do not have any advantage, if you run in 1 vs 5, you will die, you would die against 5 different players as well. If you gather 4 friends then go up against him, you actually have the advantage as 5 players controlling 5 characters will have more mobility than 1 player controlling 5.

You do have the right to do many things, you also have the right to not take advantage of them, that is your choice. It does not mean players who do should be banned or told to stop because you don't like it.

Kiingeh wrote:The level 85 does have the right to do it. You have the right to do anything as long as there is a PvP resolution and is not an exploit or hack.

Not true - look up zone disruption. If what you said was an absolute, it would be permitted for flagged characters to park mammoths on top of quest givers (or kill them repeatedly as listed in my earlier example), or etc.

In fact ZD as currently listed is a broad term that gives Blizzard the leeway to pretty much do as they see fit. Can they penalize a player in this scenario? Of course. Will they? Probably only if the predominant player community perception of largescale BG multiboxing becomes negative to the point that BG popularity suffers to some meaningful degree.

And you missed the point of my earlier comparison, which was that bad faith can be actionable (ofc ultimately since eula is subject to change without notice, EVERYTHING is actionable if Blizzard feels like it).

Yes; the rules are guidelines, and Blizzard reserves the right to forbid things that they previously didn't, or that never got put in the official rules.

Or that were already covered under rules that were left deliberately general, and open to interpretation.

Worba wrote:

Kiingeh wrote:The level 85 does have the right to do it. You have the right to do anything as long as there is a PvP resolution and is not an exploit or hack.

Not true - look up zone disruption. If what you said was an absolute, it would be permitted for flagged characters to park mammoths on top of quest givers (or kill them repeatedly as listed in my earlier example), or etc.

In fact ZD as currently listed is a broad term that gives Blizzard the leeway to pretty much do as they see fit. Can they penalize a player in this scenario? Of course. Will they? Probably only if the predominant player community perception of largescale BG multiboxing becomes negative to the point that BG popularity suffers to some meaningful degree.

And you missed the point of my earlier comparison, which was that bad faith can be actionable (ofc ultimately since eula is subject to change without notice, EVERYTHING is actionable if Blizzard feels like it).

In the case of killing quest givers repeatedly or blocking NPCs, If they do it excessively yes, you'll get into trouble, you really have to camp it for awhile to get to that point though.
Turtling in BGs, no, never.