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Well, as much as I would also never trust Garrosh and his allies, theres no exact proof so far that he's the only reason the Dragonmaw are allied with the Horde. Hee, mind if I join you? As a Troll, theres no way I'd chill with anyone other than Vol'jin~ <3

Of course I dont mind - I'm sorry if I came off as very..opinionated I just know of their past and adore Dragons.. They've done nothing but cause trouble and I think they are joining the horde because they believe it to be turning into the old horde again.. Which is NOT something Thrall wanted : /

Hey people remmber that we DON'T know why he teams up for them it could all make senss and stuff so don't be worrying who knows it could all work out!. For all we know the Defias or some such might join the alliance or something!. anything could happen so chillax! heck for all we know they may of just said that as a trick!

Of course, it's fine. I also know a lot about the Dragonmaw, due to my love of the lore about the dragonflights. I ADORE the books Day of the Dragon and Night of the Dragon too, so of course I know how the Dragonmaw Orcs captured Alexstrasza, and I've been doing the Netherwing dailies a bunch, so I know about how they caused trouble for the Netherwing, but.. I still have to say that it's no fair to say ALL of the Dragonmaw are evil.

The Defias would NEVER join the alliance - Varian wouldnt allow it they killed the love of his life.. Thats a negative

Okay the Dragonmaws really suprised me, but I don't think Garrosh is a power hungry maniac....More like he's war hungry or wants to fight...he sees the Alliance as a pahetic lesser creatures that should be slaves or destroyed out right but still finds a challenge.

Maybe the Dragonmaws after Deathwing rises are rebelling because Nefarion is gone and without a leader, maybe Garrosh went to them because he needs warriors not cunning elves or undead.

But yes it does go with everything Thrall didn't want, he just wanted to live that's all. Mind you the game is about war, there will always be someone who does a dumb thing that makes the other hate the other somehow.

Mind you I don't like Garrosh that much but this is outright silly! ^^

EDIT: okay fixed it a bit maybe I came on a little strong again, I need to think of what I write before posting.

just saying you can never know! that was the point of me saying that bliz can make what ever they want too happen. heck if they wanted it the leader of the Defias could be old kingys long lost bro and we can do nothing about it so don't get worked up about it. lore stuff does not really change the game play much :S don't take what i'm saying as a 'screw you lore lovers" its not.

And I understand that the point I'm trying to make is that while they have switched the lore around some there are certain things that wouldnt make sense switching. I play this game because it has a backstory and its rich in lore and that story - you cant shake that foundation to much before it begins to not make sense and not become what you wanted it to be in the first place. Sure they could make him his brother er whatever but they wouldnt make them part of the alliance since they have a backstory going on his seething hate for the Defias. They got him kidnapped and killed the love of his life do you really take Varian to be THAT forgiving because I sure dont.

It won't truly surprise me if Garrosh made some open-ended pact with the devil (the devil being Deathwing). He's stupid like that and we know it >>;

That would work, I think. You do a questline to unlock Deathwing's lair, and during this questline you see Garrosh making a pact with Deathwing. They could use phasing to place another orc at the throne with phasing when you're done, and Garrosh could act as a boss in Deathwing's raid. Then even Horde players would get to kill the bastard.

Saturo wrote:

It won't truly surprise me if Garrosh made some open-ended pact with the devil (the devil being Deathwing). He's stupid like that and we know it >>;

That would work, I think. You do a questline to unlock Deathwing's lair, and during this questline you see Garrosh making a pact with Deathwing. They could use phasing to place another orc at the throne with phasing when you're done, and Garrosh could act as a boss in Deathwing's raid. Then even Horde players would get to kill the bastard.

Yes plz.

I would grind my butt off to be able to raid him.


At anyrate, sorry but the Dragonmaw? They're basically all evil. The good ones most likely left or were killed. Look, I know everyone is trying to see the 'good' in them, but that's like trying to claim the Twilight Cultists could have some good people. Or Kel'thuzad's little demented cult, could have good people. None of them do, just like the Dragonmaw.

Maybe it's less evil and more they never had a chance to be good, but suffice it to say these are people the horde should NOT be allying themselves with. The Dragonmaw haven't gone to Alexstrasza all, 'Look queen of dragons, we're mighty sorry for what our fucked up ancestors did' no. They've not done this, nor anything like it.

I'm also going to point people in the direction of Ice Crown and Aggmar's hammer or whatever the quest hub in dragonblight is. You see those two crazy orcs in power? Those orcs were put in place by Garrosh. One even threatens you. The other is to crazed by killing alliance to do anything else so OFC the first time I went into HoR I WAS SURPRISED HE CAME TO SAVE US. In a OH GOD YOU DROPPED YOUR HATRED LONG ENOUGH FOR THIS SAVE US FOR THE LOVE OF NAARU.

Now looking at who Garrosh puts into power, and what kind of mind set they have... no, no I don't believe the Dragonmaw are good now, or will be good, or ever would be good.

Ryai wrote:At anyrate, sorry but the Dragonmaw? They're basically all evil. The good ones most likely left or were killed. Look, I know everyone is trying to see the 'good' in them, but that's like trying to claim the Twilight Cultists could have some good people. Or Kel'thuzad's little demented cult, could have good people. None of them do, just like the Dragonmaw.

Okay, hold on here, theres no proof the Dragonmaw Orcs who have sided with the Horde are the same ones that caused trouble for the dragons. As you said, they'd either have left, or been killed. There might have been some that left and have now rejoined the Horde as a new Dragonmaw Clan.

Its Garrosh allying with them nough said - Thrall didnt let them into his new horde for a reason. Yet Garrosh is? Lets let a clan of orcs who enslaved alexstraza and as Ryai said havent apologized or been remoreful of their actions at all and will be shame to the horde name even more so than Garrosh is gunna do it now - join the horde? Thats like saying lets destroy everything our warchief worked for and strived so hard to accomplish. The only reason that these orcs would want to join the horde is if they felt a coming gain of the old horde - which was a destructive force and blah blah. Im sure no horde player wants this which brings you back to Ryai's original post that - Garrosh is FAIL for making the horde even worse than its all ready going to be with him in charge. You dont alli with the people who enslaved the queen of Dragons..you just dont. Also I wouldnt be suprised if he does have some pact with Deathwing seeing as these orcs served under the black dragonflight and at one point if I remember correctly Deathwing himself. Thats like saying come on in Orgrimmar Deathwing and lets have a cup of tea.. It just dosent make sense. Blizzard has said theya rent making the horde "entirely" evil but it looks like they are going down that path and making the alliance the good ones. As said as it seems everything thats happening is pointing to that - wish they'd just make Vol'jin the new warchief or make Thrall come back. I truely hope in the expansion that players are workin to bring back Thrall or help Vol'jin become warchief again because if not.. I've lost faith in the horde and what it was..because it'll be turning into something that nobody wants it to turn into.

Senna-Umbreon wrote:

Ryai wrote:At anyrate, sorry but the Dragonmaw? They're basically all evil. The good ones most likely left or were killed. Look, I know everyone is trying to see the 'good' in them, but that's like trying to claim the Twilight Cultists could have some good people. Or Kel'thuzad's little demented cult, could have good people. None of them do, just like the Dragonmaw.

Okay, hold on here, theres no proof the Dragonmaw Orcs who have sided with the Horde are the same ones that caused trouble for the dragons. As you said, they'd either have left, or been killed. There might have been some that left and have now rejoined the Horde as a new Dragonmaw Clan.

Sorry but this is kinda disproven, mostly where Grim Batol is. Wetlands- and what still live in Wetlands? Dragonmaw orcs. Who are trying to kill alliance there and there's still nice tempting red whelps and such there. When I said the dragonmaw would have either left or were killed, if they were good. I mean left wetlands entirely. Gone far, far away. Probably set up residence elsewhere and go by a NEW clan title. If that.

Look the horde already HAS dragon hunters; if you've done the quest in Dragonblight there was one of our dragon hunters. The troll dude evidently. Did Garrosh really have to go to evil orcs? Evidently yes because if you glance back to one of Blizz's comments about the change in Orgrimmar, evidently Garrosh views only Tauren and Orcs as the 'true horde' or strong enough or some crap. Meaning he's not going to care, if they're good or not, just that they can provide him with what he wants.

Or here let me put it like this.

Dragonmaw, are like the Grimtotem.

You ever see a good Grimtotem?

^ As an alli I come across these orcs all to much. The fact is they are evil plain and simple - thats like saying a pit lord can be good.. Dosent make sense. Somethings are just EVIL plain and simple. Orcs such as those are and like Ryai said I dont see Carine being all buddy buddy with the Grimtotem.

I'm fine with the Dragonmaw thing. Why not? I love that my chosen faction is undergoing such a dramatic story line and lore contribution for Catacylsm, it will certainly make being Horde even more interesting by knowing that my faction is such a lore-based focal point for the Cataclysm arc.

Okay, I am totally DONE with this. I cannot keep argueing, as apprently, no matter WHAT I say, my opinion gets shot down everytime. Can't people at LEAST consider that other people might be right sometimes?! Seriously, I can't take this right after pulling an all-nighter.. Heck, I'm done with all of this, period. I'm done with close-minded people, and I'm done with this thread. .. Good night. *Wanders off to sleep*

Senna-Umbreon wrote:Okay, I am totally DONE with this. I cannot keep argueing, as apprently, no matter WHAT I say, my opinion gets shot down everytime. Can't people at LEAST consider that other people might be right sometimes?! Seriously, I can't take this right after pulling an all-nighter.. Heck, I'm done with all of this, period. I'm done with close-minded people, and I'm done with this thread. .. Good night. *Wanders off to sleep*

If you want to be "right", bring something to prove that you're right. For example, evidence that there's a "new" dragonmaw clan. Currently there is nothing that supports that. You have an opinion, yes, but that doesn't support your theory...

Well, theres no exact evidance that these Dragonmaw are evil either, now is there? *Wanders off again*

Also, I'm not trying to prove that I'm right, I'm just kinda annoyed that all I've been seeing is people shooting down my theory and not giving it a chance in hell.

Anansi wrote:I'm fine with the Dragonmaw thing. Why not? I love that my chosen faction is undergoing such a dramatic story line and lore contribution for Catacylsm, it will certainly make being Horde even more interesting by knowing that my faction is such a lore-based focal point for the Cataclysm arc.

Couldn't agree more. I'm eager to see what develops, and I'm truthfully loving the internal disputes that are arising within the Horde due to these sorts of decisions.

All I can say is... retcon *cough* >.> It's quite possible Senna is right, we've seen stranger things.