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Mm...Warchief Sylvanas. <3

Warchief Vol'jin? Yes please! <3
Sylvannis? I'd quit playing horde unless she went back to the way she was before WotLK.

Personally I would consider the Forsaken as a "race" and not just a faction. (maybe species would be more accurate)
For me either you are alive, dead, or undead.
And if you are undead and conscious that is all that is required to be Forsaken.
This is a bit different from a faction, for anyone can join a faction.
(I guess it could be possible for the initiation rite to include you dying and being raised as undead, so I guess it is possible for the Forsaken being a faction. Of course, who would join the Forsaken if you had a choice while still living? And if so, how could you leave? Its not like being a Republican)

Personally, I don't remember the undead being that difficult to destroy in WoW, but maybe that is me, I do not keep up on the Lore.
If they were so easy bring back, why would Sylvanas need to create more to undead?
Why is she so worried about being able to hold Tirisfal Glades if there were enough Forsaken?

To me, this points to a major decline in the Forsaken.
And this in my opinion is the real point.

Sure creating undead in any circumstance is considered "evil" by the living, especially if they believe in an "afterlife."
As Garrosh believes based on his dialog with Sylvanas.
But I think this changes a bit when one is an undead.
Just what circumstances would it be ok to raise more undead, as an undead?

Basically it comes down to this, is the notion of "right" and "wrong" relative? (yes, moral relativism)
Does it change depending on time, place and circumstance?

I think it does.
And that is really the point of my post.

What Sylvanas is doing is difficult and a hard choice for her, but it is the "right" thing for her to do, for herself and her people at that particular place and time.

Does Garrosh think it is the "wrong" choice? Absolutely.
Would most people, Trolls, Humans, Orcs, etc agree with him? Most likely.

Will there be consequences for her actions? Definitely. Which just makes for a more interesting story.

Personally, Vol'jin should have been warchief. But, that would have been too easy.

I used to really like Sylvanas and stick up for her on a regular basis, but that was before the Wrathgate and the more recent activities in Cataclysm. Sylvanas has planned the annihilation of all living races on Azeroth for quite some time. Many Forsaken quests revolve around this fact (testing new plagues/diseases/poisons/hideous experiments on innocent bystanders of both factions). Sylvanas is evil and insane, no matter how virtuous she herself thinks she is. That having been said, not all of the Forsaken are to be painted with this brush. For every truly despicable Forsaken there is another that raises the bar. The same can be said of any of the races on Azeroth.

As an aside, Vol'Jin as Warchief would've been incredible.

Saturo wrote:Or Sylvanas. Seriously, if she had been left in charge the Horde would rule Azeroth by now. Just look at what she has managed with "just" the undead army!

I'm not convinced. Have you seen the tactical blunder she makes at the end of the Silverpine quest line?! That's like Sylvanasnub right there!

/casts vote for Vol'jin for Warchief

Getting back on topic, though. I think everyone here can probably agree that leadership of an entire faction is not something you'd want to leave in the hands of someone as inexperienced, hot-headed and reckless as Garrosh.

Do you elect a President or Prime Minister who has had absolutely no prior political experience? No! In Canada, the PM is the Member of Parliment for his or her area, and he or she can be voted out in the next election, even though he/she is the leader of their political party. In the US, I'm fairly certain that Presidental candidates have to have either prior experience in Congress or the Senate, or have a high-ranking position in state governments (most likely the governor). I'm fairly certain that most other first-world governments have similar systems in real life. One cannot just wander in off the street and become President of the US, no matter what the American Dream/Myth says.

What experience does Hellscream have?

1. Well, he spent at least 18 years doing nothing in Nagrand.
2. He sat around in Warsong Hold and was babysat by Saurfang the Elder, who threatened to kill him. Somehow, this was intrepreted by most Orc NPCs to mean that he single-handedly defeated the Lich King
3. He made stupid comments at the Argent Tournament

Let's look at our other "candidates"

Vol'jin

Led the Darkspear Trolls since his father, Sen'jin's death in WCIII. Since Vanilla WoW, he has aided Thrall as an advisor and strategist (think of him as a high-ranking general or Minister/Secretary of Defense). Recently planned and executed a successful military campaign to retake the Echo Isles. Built a new capital on the Echo Isles. All the while, the Darkspear Trolls have been active and valued members of the Horde, so close friends to the Orcs that they even trained the young (low levels) in the same area.

Sylvanus

In life, served as Ranger-General of Quel'thalas. In death, freed the Forsaken, restoring their free will. Has ruled Undercity, and held a large portion of the Eastern Kingdoms for the Horde. Was influential in bringing the Blood Elves into the Horde. Led several campaigns in Northrend, and now defends her people's lands against Worgen incursions. A skilled, experienced military and civil leader. (Think of her as the "governor" of the "state/province" of Lorderan)

Cairne Bloodhoof (before his death)

United the Tauren tribes under a single leadership, without forcing any to join. Built a new home and capital city and the first pernament settlements in recent history for his people. Joined a powerful small-a alliance in order to safeguard that stability. A political leader who puts his people's needs first, but also safeguards the alliance they are part of.

Saurfang the Elder

A military leader, vetran of the First, Second and Third wars, very experienced. Despite his age, participated in the Northrend campaign.


It's not like the Horde didn't have plenty of strong leaders who could have done a much better job as temporary Warchief in Thrall's absence than Garrosh. I must stress the "temporary" aspect too -- I don't believe Thrall said that Garrosh would be in charge for good, just until Thrall got back from saving the world, or whatever the hell he's doing. (I'm guessing he's the one who will kill Deathwing, since Blizzard doesn't seem to like letting players actually take out powerful enemies lorewise)

That "temporary" aspect is what still gives me hope for the Horde. If Garrosh doesn't destroy it before Thrall can come back, that is.

Dude. I totally want Saurfang to give Garrosh a swift asskicking. I really REALLY do. XD

Taluwen wrote:Dude. I totally want Saurfang to give Garrosh a swift asskicking. I really REALLY do. XD

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
This please. Like..NAW

Redith wrote:

Taluwen wrote:Dude. I totally want Saurfang to give Garrosh a swift asskicking. I really REALLY do. XD

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
This please. Like..NAW

Hey he said if Garrosh screwed up, he will kick his ass. Remember in Warsong Hold? XD

Cerah wrote:
Let's look at our other "candidates"

Vol'jin

Sylvanus

Cairne Bloodhoof (before his death)

Saurfang the Elder

Poor Lor'Themar....he doesn't even get an honorable mention. I guess it's only natural seeing as it took two expansions to even give him his own outfit and voice...

(I'm not nitpicking or ragging on you Cerah, I just honestly wish they'd give the guy more lore...I love blood elves, it makes me sad to see 'who's that' as the norm when you mention the guy.... )

~VelkynKarma

Apologies, I must go off on a slight tangent now that you mentioned Lor'Themar.

He finally gained a set of voice emotes, unique ones...GAH THEY'RE SO BAD! I went to see him all anticipating his unique voice, and I was horrified at the voice actor they've given him. All of the lines sound so....amateur, or mediocre. The acting is just really bad. >_< *sighs*

/end tangent

Vephriel wrote:Apologies, I must go off on a slight tangent now that you mentioned Lor'Themar.

He finally gained a set of voice emotes, unique ones...GAH THEY'RE SO BAD! I went to see him all anticipating his unique voice, and I was horrified at the voice actor they've given him. All of the lines sound so....amateur, or mediocre. The acting is just really bad. >_< *sighs*

/end tangent

Ohgawd, I totally agree. I was PSYCHED to hear they gave him his own VA and his own quotes because I've only been demanding it since BC when I realized he was the ONLY faction leader to lack uniqueness. Hell, even Varian, who appeared significantly in-game AFTER Lor'Themar, got his own unique look AND quotes first.

So I ran down to Silvermoon to hear him and--oh, what the hell was THAT? He emphasizes ALL the wrong syllables and words in his quotes, it's so...GAH. Blizzard, srsly, what were you thinking?!

~VelkynKarma

It's like he's trying to emulate. William Shatner's. Tendency to add. Pauses. In mid. Sentence. But it's soooo bad! T_T And if you keep clicking him and he gets annoyed....*sigh*.

Ugh. I would have laughed at the line (Do not touch the hair!) because it's so silly and bloodelfy but...

The emphasis. IS. so WRONG!

/facepalm

Not only that, the poor guy needs to do more stuff! I used to complain that Sylvanas and Thrall were the only two Horde faction leaders that really got any time in the spotlight. Cairne never did anything, and in Wrath I was actually kinda shocked that Vol'jin even showed up outside the Wrathgate retaking-Undercity event, even if he never actually helped you. It was always Thrall and Sylvanas, while Cairne, Vol'jin and Lor'themar were never noticed.

But now, almost everyone has had SOME impact of major importance. Thrall and Sylvanas are obvious. Vol'jin had a whole special questline for retaking the Echo Isles and is actively involved in a number of newbie troll quests. Cairne died, unfortunately, but the entire incident still speaks of epicness; hell, anybody willing to try and duel Garrosh for leadership earns stars in my book.

Lor'themar makes bad jokes about hair.

Um...what?

I've read that apparently he has a small role in the Quel'Delar stuff, but seeing as that is practically astronomically impossible for like 95% of players to see unless they get REALLY lucky...I'd say it hardly counts. All the other faction leaders are actively involved with players in some way shape or form. Lor'themar needs a chance to shine now like the others.

~VelkynKarma

*Spoilers*

After playing through Silverpine, I decided I liked Sylvanas again, despite her breaking her word in WC3. She comes across as earnest and honorable. Then she proceeded to screw over Koltira after he refused to kill a friend to win a battle--she drags him through a portal into "below Undercity" to basically brainwash him through torture by the sounds of things. Another npc in EPL states that he left the Forsaken because, while he used to admire her, she's changed now, "not herself anymore."

Garrosh is an idiot, and was a coward, but you do get an idea of why he's Warchief in Thrall's explanation to Vol'jin. And his harshness in dealing with the idiot in Stonetalon, and his adherence to honor (going so far as to quote Saurfang) is a refreshing change. Not sure that's a lore**** as such, just character development--and toward a good end. That said, he still says things like "YOU BELONG TO THE HORDE" or something as silly when clicked

I don't know anything about Baine, and Vol'jin is his usual honorable, cautious self--a good leader, and I like him.

To the OP's question--I think Saturo answered pretty well why Garrosh is hated. Whether he can change, and whether it's genuine change or just screwing over the lore, is up for debate!

Turgus wrote:Personally I would consider the Forsaken as a "race" and not just a faction. (maybe species would be more accurate)
For me either you are alive, dead, or undead.
And if you are undead and conscious that is all that is required to be Forsaken.
This is a bit different from a faction, for anyone can join a faction.
(I guess it could be possible for the initiation rite to include you dying and being raised as undead, so I guess it is possible for the Forsaken being a faction. Of course, who would join the Forsaken if you had a choice while still living? And if so, how could you leave? Its not like being a Republican)

That's just it. Anyone can become Forsaken. Sure, it means you need to die and then swear yourself over to Sylvanas' cause, but other than that I can't see the Dark lady turning anyone down. A race, on the other hand, you cannot simply join, you have to be born as one. Oh, you can be considered to be an honourary member of a race, but that's not really the same thing. Example: A Tauren may swear service to Garrosh, dress and act like an Orc, but that doesn't magically turn that Tauren plantigrade and green. Once that Tauren dies and swears service to Sylvanas however, he's a Forsaken.

As for leaving the Forsaken, well, you withdraw your oath to Sylvanas and hope that you survive. Not all free-thinking undead are Forsaken. The Death Knights, for example. Sure, there are Forsaken Death Knights around, but there are just as many, if not more, who are not allied with Sylvanas. Also, there are a number of free-thinking undead that serve in the Argent Crusade. Some of them may continue to hold their ties to the Dark lady, but certainly not all of them. Or perhaps you burn yourself, ending your service to Sylvanas by returning yourself to the cold embrace of death.

Although really we're just arguing semantics over whether they should be called a race or a faction. What is important is distinguishing what makes Forsaken different from other races.

Turgus wrote: Personally, I don't remember the undead being that difficult to destroy in WoW, but maybe that is me, I do not keep up on the Lore.
If they were so easy bring back, why would Sylvanas need to create more to undead?
Why is she so worried about being able to hold Tirisfal Glades if there were enough Forsaken?

One of the big issues the Argent Crusade had to deal with is making sure all the corpses of the undead they killed were burned or dismembered well to prevent the Lich King from just "stiching" them back together again. I can't see it being too different for the Forsaken. I also remember a quest or two around where you had to find the body parts of a Forsaken so the questgiver could stitch them back up. I can't quite recall what the quest was called, nor where you found it, but I'm pretty sure it's out there. I'll have to look for it.

As for Sylvanas' sudden need for more forsaken and why she's worried about mantaining hold over Tirisfal Glade? The Worgen, The Argent Crusade and Garrosh.

The Worgen are unique among Sylvanas' foes in that they seem resiliant, if not resistant, to becoming undead. They also have their homeland very, very close to her own. All the other Alliance races have had but a token force or two near Lordaeron, but nothing that she's had to worry too much about. Suddenly, she has a great deal of very pissed off werewolves just to the south of her borders and they do not like her at all. Thanks to the effors of the Horde, most of the Worgen were forced to flee over to Teldrassil, but there are more than enough still stalking about to give her cause for alarm.

The Crusade provide a different sort of issue. They're predominately about eradicating the last few pockets of wild undead still haunting Eastern Kingdoms and Northrend, as well as keeping guard over the new Lich King. But what happens when they kill off the last scourge? Probably nothing, they've had little issue with the Forsaken so far. But Sylvanas doesn't want to take that chance none the less. After all, many living see the forsaken as just another branch of evil undead, especially after the Wrathgate event.

And finally Garrosh. The big lug has made if very clear that he trusts Sylvanas about as far as he can throw her. And oh how he would love to throw her into some sort of volcanic pit. He still sees the Forsaken as a neccissary evil, but he really doesn't like it. Becuase of this, Sylvanas probably can't take the Horde's support for granted any more. So she needs to bolster her forces for a contingency in which she finds herself and her people in a dire situation.

Turgus wrote: Basically it comes down to this, is the notion of "right" and "wrong" relative? (yes, moral relativism)
Does it change depending on time, place and circumstance?

I think it does.
And that is really the point of my post.

What Sylvanas is doing is difficult and a hard choice for her, but it is the "right" thing for her to do, for herself and her people at that particular place and time.

Does Garrosh think it is the "wrong" choice? Absolutely.
Would most people, Trolls, Humans, Orcs, etc agree with him? Most likely.

Will there be consequences for her actions? Definitely. Which just makes for a more interesting story.

All exclent points, but one must ask. Where does one draw the line in all this? What would happen if Sylvanas took her Val'kyr and raised, say, Grom Hellscream? Or Ogrim Doomhammer? Or Uther Lightbringer (assuming she somehow gains access to his corpse)? Or Zul'Jin? Or Maiev Shadowsong (assuming she's dead)? In a tactical perspective, this would be an inspired move. Having direct access to the knowledge and skills of a great war leader would greatly bolster the power of the Horde, and if said war leader was formerly of the Alliance it would demoralize them to see their once great hero rotting and working for the Dark Lady. What if she starts to raise old enemies, such as Zalazane or Illidan or Kel'thuzard, and somehow bends them to her will?

And we bend right around to my earlier questions. Does she have the right to do this to someone without asking their permission first? Are the needs of her people, arguably a cursed lot to begin with, more important than those of the souls she raises? There are no right or wrong answers to these questions, which is what makes them so difficult to answer in the first place.

I'd go on to Garrosh again, but I don't want to make my wall of text any longer. Lest I break people's eyes.

*shrug* I don't hate Garrosh in any way. He's brash, he's hot tempered, he's....an orc. Part of the problem (covered in Prelude to the Shattering) is that what Garrosh primarily knows of Grom other than his childhood is what he has been told/shown by Thrall in regards to the slaying of Mannoroth. The clear and obvious answer as to whom Thrall should have made "Acting" Warchief would have been Dranosh Saurfang, but since he met his end twice (once at the Wrath Gate, and again in Icecrown) he's kind of incapable of assuming that role. Varok Saurfang decided he was content to remain in Northrend having lost what was remaining of his family (or so we're led to believe considering we have two different chains of lore involving the Saurfangs).

There really wasn't much of a choice in terms of who to raise to Warchief other than an Orc as the Orcs comprise a majority of the bodies of the Horde. At the time he promoted Garrosh, there wasn't an orc more popular than Garrosh, including Thrall himself. Thrall views Garrosh as untempered steel, that can be molded into making a great leader. The chain of events that led to Garrosh's killing of Cairne weren't put into motion by Garrosh, if anything he was an unwitting pawn provided that you consider someone falsely accused of an attack on Night Elves, and another attack on a meeting of Druids of the Cenarion Circle (night elf and tauren).

I think a lot of the Garrosh hate boils down to people thought he was too "Emo" in Garadar until you finish the Thrall quest chain, and once he's in Orgrimmar he has perhaps embraced his heritage a little too "much" for some people and seemed to be a 180 degree turn.

VelkynKarma wrote: Poor Lor'Themar....he doesn't even get an honorable mention. I guess it's only natural seeing as it took two expansions to even give him his own outfit and voice...

(I'm not nitpicking or ragging on you Cerah, I just honestly wish they'd give the guy more lore...I love blood elves, it makes me sad to see 'who's that' as the norm when you mention the guy.... )

~VelkynKarma

No nitpicking detected, Velkyn, don't worry

I didn't mention Lor'themar as a candidate because the blood elves are the now second-newest members of the Horde, mostly concerned with their own issues. Plus, Lor'themar is still the Regent-Lord of Quel'thalas. He doesn't seem confortable in even taking the full leadership role for his own people just yet, though he may still be shaken by Kael'thas' (so-called) betrayal to consider it.

/tangent

In my opinion, just my opinion, mind you, Kael was never evil. The only reason he wanted to bring summon Archimonde into Azeroth was to entrap the demon, so the blood elves could suck all the fel energy out of him. I think the turning factor for most the Silvermoon blood elves in regards to their prince was when his forces took back the Naaru that the blood knights were sucking energy out of. But, think about it for a moment. What happens when Naaru are drained of energy, something the blood elves didn't know about when they first caught the alien wind chime? They convert into void creatures, and cause a rather big kaboom when they do. Maybe Kael was actually saving Silvermoon by getting the Naaru out of there before it blew his city sky-high. Kael'thas' main failing, IMO, was in not trusting his people with his plans, by trying to do everything himself, and he paid for his well-meaning but misguided zealousness with his life (as far as we know -- his symbol is a phoenix for a reason, as he proved once already).

/end tangent

Anyway, while I agree 100% that poor Lor'themar has been completely neglected by lore, and I would love to see more of him, hear the blood elves' continuing story, I don't think he would ever even consider Horde leadership. That's the reason why I didn't include him in my list.

I normally play Alliance, but I have a low level BE hunter and a bunch of friends that play horde. I find Garrosh annoying for the same reasons I find Varian annoying: they are so impetuous and don't stop to think or care what they say might have dire consequences, not only for them but for their whole factions. It seems like the first thing they think of comes out of their mouths.

/tangent

In my opinion, Theramore should be made more prevalent and then she can help rule the Alliance. She doesn't see the Horde as big, bad, orcs, and had a decent relationship with Thrall. Varian, on the other hand, just seems he wants to make warcraft, not love.

On another point, I agree with with the idea that Sylvanas is only doing what she sees she needs to do. If all the undead die, what would happen to her?

I agree with the idea that the BE faction leader hasn't gotten enough screen time. I'd like to add that I don't think draenei have either. I mean c'mon, they could have been warlocks and it would have fit in with lore!

/end of tangent

Naiaara wrote: I agree with the idea that the BE faction leader hasn't gotten enough screen time. I'd like to add that I don't think draenei have either. I mean c'mon, they could have been warlocks and it would have fit in with lore!

No it wouldn't as they are HEAVY followers of the Light and the Naaru. Aside from Death Knights(which wasnt their choice to be anyway), they'd never have any dark-like classes. That's why they didn't get it in the shattering, because it is lorebreaking to their beliefs.