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...almost starting an all-out war between the alliance and the horde...

My 2 copper, this is the reason to like (not loathe) Garrosh.

This is not World of Friendcraft or Diplomacycraft or Letsallhugcraft.

It's World of Warcraft. And I like (videogame) War.

As a dedicated Hordy, War with the Allaince should be forever. The softening of the Horde is one thing I've not enjoyed at all as the lore has progressed. Exploring their culture is great, it adds depth, but the softening up and becoming "like the alliance" just with Orcs and Trolls and Cows, all peace-loving and pacifist?

No thanks.

Warfish wrote:

...almost starting an all-out war between the alliance and the horde...

My 2 copper, this is the reason to like (not loathe) Garrosh.

This is not World of Friendcraft or Diplomacycraft or Letsallhugcraft.

It's World of Warcraft. And I like (videogame) War.

As a dedicated Hordy, War with the Allaince should be forever. The softening of the Horde is one thing I've not enjoyed at all as the lore has progressed. Exploring their culture is great, it adds depth, but the softening up and becoming "like the alliance" just with Orcs and Trolls and Cows, all peace-loving and pacifist?

No thanks.

With what you've said, you realize the warcraft part can come from, I dunno, something other than the alliance right? Oh right....horde teamed up with Alliance to defeat Arthas, remember? I have a feeling it will come to that again with Deathwing.

the Warcraft part isnt always horde vs alliance.

Warfish wrote:

...almost starting an all-out war between the alliance and the horde...

My 2 copper, this is the reason to like (not loathe) Garrosh.

This is not World of Friendcraft or Diplomacycraft or Letsallhugcraft.

It's World of Warcraft. And I like (videogame) War.

As a dedicated Hordy, War with the Allaince should be forever. The softening of the Horde is one thing I've not enjoyed at all as the lore has progressed. Exploring their culture is great, it adds depth, but the softening up and becoming "like the alliance" just with Orcs and Trolls and Cows, all peace-loving and pacifist?

No thanks. :twisted:

So you'd rather the two forces weaken each other, giving Arthas an easy fight?

I agree with what's been said. There is tension between the Alliance and Horde. There will always be tension between the Alliance and Horde, but when it comes to things like Arthas and Deathwing, an all out war between the two could cripple the Alliance and Horde.

Warfish wrote:As a dedicated Hordy, War with the Allaince should be forever. The softening of the Horde is one thing I've not enjoyed at all as the lore has progressed. Exploring their culture is great, it adds depth, but the softening up and becoming "like the alliance" just with Orcs and Trolls and Cows, all peace-loving and pacifist?

No thanks.

I wouldn't exactly call the Alliance all peace, love and harmony either.

Humans are, well, humans. Considering our own RL species wiped out the Neandrathals and have continously committed genocide against factions of our own kind for stupid little differences, need I say more? In WoW, the whole Defias fiasco demonstates perfectly well how badly humans can treat their own kind, even in a world full of other races for them to hate. Also, Lorderan and Stormwind completely destroyed the Kingdom of Alterac when its leaders dared to negotiate with Doomhammer's Horde, to keep their cilvilians from being slaughtered. They were slaughtered anyway, by the Alliance that had failed to protect them in the first place.

High Elves originally only joined up with humans to use them as Operation: Human Shield against the Amani Trolls, and in return, taught them magic. Realizing later that this was a bad idea, they only stayed with humans afterwards in order to police their use of magic, and would back out of whatever Alliance existed at the time when they didn't feel like it anymore. The current elves who still call themselves High are doing so mostly out of spite for the Blood Elves.

Dwarves, again, were pretty much content to ignore humans until the Horde came knocking at their doors. Then, it was an alliance of necessity, though to the dwarves' credit, they've stuck with it since.

Gnomes are only part because they like the Dwarves

Night Elves are part of the Alliance to balance out the Undead being part of the Horde, so all the playable WCIII races are playable in WoW. Their lore reasons for joining have yet to be revealled, as far as I know.

Draenei joined because they crashed near the night elves and made friends, and because the Alliance are not Orcs.

Worgen are (or were) human.

So the Alliance seems just as thrown together as the Horde in that respect, but while the Alliance has been making progress towards more intregation, the Horde now seems to be moving in the opposite direction, thanks in no small part to Garrosh's brand of "leadership".

Garrosh is, in my opinion, what is needed at this point.

What the Horde wants, desires is a strong leader. They know that so soon after the defeat of the Lich King, a new enemy has arisen, and they will once more be at war. They also know the supposed truce between them and the Alliance is over.

This means they can take their revenge against the things the Alliance has done to them.

I am not saying that the Horde are blameless, considering what happened after the first and second opening of the Dark Portal, but both sides are entrenched in a fight between each other.

I will aliken them to rival gangs: they will fight. Sometimes they will team up to gun down some cops, and after the cops are dead, the guns will turn on each other. It won't stop til one side is dead.

As to Varian; he's annoyed at his capture and enslavement as a gladiator. Well, Thrall had been enslaved for a similar purpose by the Alliance, and he came out of it fine. Varian is simply making a mountain out of a molehill.

Garrosh's time in Nagrand is simply because of his father. You all know what he knew, and what he didn't. After Thrall's recruitment of him, he grew up a little.

And his previous mood turned to hatred. Perhaps Garrosh has no reason to hate the Alliance. Perhaps he has reason yet unknown. But nevertheless, the Alliance and Horde will fight like two lions over a gazelle, til one is dead or run away.

We shall see who is the better faction, and who is the better leader.

And as for Sylvanas; She is a female Lich King. In fact, her very title is extremely similar, and with former members of the scourge and her Royal Apothecary Society at her disposal, who knows what she has lurking beneath the Undercity?

I suspect we've not seen the last of the Forsaken Plague, especially after Gilneas. It just remains to be seen what shall come of it.

Sylvanas and her undead minions serve one purpose: their own. They answer to nobody but the Banshee Queen, carrying out her depraved bidding. Sooner or later, than loose cannon will go off, and the person who it's pointed out shall have a large hole in them.

Their dark lust for power is only sated by their hatred of humans, for surviving when they did not.

The death knights, horrified by their acts under Arthas, have attempted to redeem themselves. The Forsaken have done nothing but left carnage in their wake.

If you like that, then well, we shall see what remains of you later.

Saturo wrote:So you'd rather the two forces weaken each other, giving Arthas an easy fight?

Shifting the purpose from Horde vs. Alliance to Player vs. AI Mob has deeply weakened the game, in my not-really-all-that-humble-view.

The purpose inherant in the game of Warcraft should always be focussed directly on the conflict between Horde and Alliance. Sure, you can toss out a "join (sorta) for a greater purpose", but that should be minimal and short-lived, a distraction event, not the core game.

Different strokes for different folks, of course, and I was well aware my view is not a popular one in this specific community. Nevertheless, I continue to hope some of the grit, danger and aggression of old Warcraft and the Wars that drove it, will return in Cata, despite the pretty black dragon flying about.

Cerah wrote: I didn't mention Lor'themar as a candidate because the blood elves are the now second-newest members of the Horde, mostly concerned with their own issues. Plus, Lor'themar is still the Regent-Lord of Quel'thalas. He doesn't seem confortable in even taking the full leadership role for his own people just yet, though he may still be shaken by Kael'thas' (so-called) betrayal to consider it.

Fair point. While Lor'Themar has enough background to prove he's a fairly capable leader, you're probably right in that he's likely not ready to take on a whole alliance (not Alliance) of six factions. Especially since blood elves as a whole seem to keep mostly to themselves unless they're acting in adviser roles...most of the time you only see one or two blood elves dotting a quest hub while traveling. I DO wish he'd show up at more 'group of leader' events though. I don't think he even left Silvermoon for the whole pre-Wrath event when Sylvanas and Thrall defended Orgrimmar, did he? Or...actually I don't think I've ever seen him anywhere but his little hidey-hole in Silvermoon XD But yeah, I don't think we even have his response on the whole Garrosh thing...Cairne obviously disliked Garrosh's appointment as Warchief, Sylvanas is clearly not pleased with it, and Vol'jin almost LEFT the Horde, but Lor'themar hasn't said anything...?

Though on the Regent-Lord thing...according to his wowwiki page, there are rumors that supposedly he'll be crowned king soon. About time really...we knew back in BC that Kael'thas wouldn't be re-assuming leadership since we killed him...twice. I think the blood elves KINDA need to decide who their new ruling bloodline is since the Sunstriders appear to be non-existent now...

/tangent

In my opinion, just my opinion, mind you, Kael was never evil. The only reason he wanted to bring summon Archimonde into Azeroth was to entrap the demon, so the blood elves could suck all the fel energy out of him. I think the turning factor for most the Silvermoon blood elves in regards to their prince was when his forces took back the Naaru that the blood knights were sucking energy out of. But, think about it for a moment. What happens when Naaru are drained of energy, something the blood elves didn't know about when they first caught the alien wind chime? They convert into void creatures, and cause a rather big kaboom when they do. Maybe Kael was actually saving Silvermoon by getting the Naaru out of there before it blew his city sky-high. Kael'thas' main failing, IMO, was in not trusting his people with his plans, by trying to do everything himself, and he paid for his well-meaning but misguided zealousness with his life (as far as we know -- his symbol is a phoenix for a reason, as he proved once already).

/end tangent

I sorta agree. I think Kael'thas definitely had good intentions at first. He was trying to protect and save his people after a full-scale calamity that wiped out 90% of the elves and destroyed their king. Not to mention the fact that the 10% remaining were suddenly afflicted with massive withdrawals that, in the case of the young or elderly, could even kill. I'm sure he was desperate for any solution to try and help them, because he seemed to genuinely care about his subjects before he headed to Outland and started dabbling in things he shouldn't. But if we learned anything from the orcs, it's that dabbling in demonic energy is not really safe in the long run. He definitely paid for that. By the time you hit Tempest Keep he still seems to believe he's doing the right thing, judging from his speech, although it won't stop him from killing blood elves in your party, and he does a lot of questionable things...and by the time you hit Magister's Terrace he is deeeefinitely crazy. He probably started out with good intentions, but he did gradually "turn evil" as far as I'm concerned.

~VelkynKarma

VelkynKarma wrote: Fair point. While Lor'Themar has enough background to prove he's a fairly capable leader, you're probably right in that he's likely not ready to take on a whole alliance (not Alliance) of six factions. Especially since blood elves as a whole seem to keep mostly to themselves unless they're acting in adviser roles...most of the time you only see one or two blood elves dotting a quest hub while traveling. I DO wish he'd show up at more 'group of leader' events though. I don't think he even left Silvermoon for the whole pre-Wrath event when Sylvanas and Thrall defended Orgrimmar, did he? Or...actually I don't think I've ever seen him anywhere but his little hidey-hole in Silvermoon XD But yeah, I don't think we even have his response on the whole Garrosh thing...Cairne obviously disliked Garrosh's appointment as Warchief, Sylvanas is clearly not pleased with it, and Vol'jin almost LEFT the Horde, but Lor'themar hasn't said anything...?

You have a fair point too. He is a Horde faction leader, and he should be included in decisions that affect the entire Horde, for that reason. After all, Velen was at the Alliance's pre-Shattering meeting. His counterpart should be just as important to his (small-a) alliance.

Blood Elves in general need more of a presence at in lower level areas. I remember trying to reach exalted with them with my Forsaken Warlock, long before classic faction talbards were available (lucky noobs). It is literally impossible to do before reaching Outland, even with doing all the quests in Eversong Woods and the Ghostlands, and hunting down every last Blood Elf questgiver I could find. Even after doing the quests in Falcon Watch, I still had to rely on spillover rep and cloth turn-ins to finally get my chocobo.

VelkynKarma wrote: Though on the Regent-Lord thing...according to his wowwiki page, there are rumors that supposedly he'll be crowned king soon. About time really...we knew back in BC that Kael'thas wouldn't be re-assuming leadership since we killed him...twice. I think the blood elves KINDA need to decide who their new ruling bloodline is since the Sunstriders appear to be non-existent now...

Maybe not. I heard a rumour (not a very serious one, but a rumour nonetheless) on the official boards that Salindra, the BE orphan from Children's Week, might be Kael's secret daughter, and that's the reason why the Bronze dragonflight's guards almost kill her.

(I prefer my own fan-character, Andrena "Theron", Kael and Vashj's half-naga, half blood elf daughter who is adopted by Lor'themar, but that's just me.)

Also, didn't Kael have brothers and sisters? Maybe he had a niece or nephew that survived the scourge. Anyway, it's possible that the Sunstrider line might still exist, but the blood elves might be keeping things quiet, for obvious reasons.

VelkynKarma wrote:

/tangent

In my opinion, just my opinion, mind you, Kael was never evil. The only reason he wanted to bring summon Archimonde into Azeroth was to entrap the demon, so the blood elves could suck all the fel energy out of him. I think the turning factor for most the Silvermoon blood elves in regards to their prince was when his forces took back the Naaru that the blood knights were sucking energy out of. But, think about it for a moment. What happens when Naaru are drained of energy, something the blood elves didn't know about when they first caught the alien wind chime? They convert into void creatures, and cause a rather big kaboom when they do. Maybe Kael was actually saving Silvermoon by getting the Naaru out of there before it blew his city sky-high. Kael'thas' main failing, IMO, was in not trusting his people with his plans, by trying to do everything himself, and he paid for his well-meaning but misguided zealousness with his life (as far as we know -- his symbol is a phoenix for a reason, as he proved once already).

/end tangent

I sorta agree. I think Kael'thas definitely had good intentions at first. He was trying to protect and save his people after a full-scale calamity that wiped out 90% of the elves and destroyed their king. Not to mention the fact that the 10% remaining were suddenly afflicted with massive withdrawals that, in the case of the young or elderly, could even kill. I'm sure he was desperate for any solution to try and help them, because he seemed to genuinely care about his subjects before he headed to Outland and started dabbling in things he shouldn't. But if we learned anything from the orcs, it's that dabbling in demonic energy is not really safe in the long run. He definitely paid for that. By the time you hit Tempest Keep he still seems to believe he's doing the right thing, judging from his speech, although it won't stop him from killing blood elves in your party, and he does a lot of questionable things...and by the time you hit Magister's Terrace he is deeeefinitely crazy. He probably started out with good intentions, but he did gradually "turn evil" as far as I'm concerned.

~VelkynKarma

I still find it a shame that a tragic hero like Kael was downgraded to "he went crazy and turned evil" lorewise just because they needed raid bosses for TBC. Unlike Arthas, who was always a dick if "Arthas: Rise of the Lich King" is any indication, Kael genuinely did care about his people, his kingdom, and stepped up to his responsibilities. Yeah, he was arrogant, but what male blood elf isn't? He was a likable character, IMO, (and hot too! ), and I didn't like what happened to him.

Just don't blame me, I voted for Mankrik

To get back on the original topic, there's always this solution to the Garrosh problem:

http://woweh.com/?p=556

edit: And this could be why Lor'themar and Cairne didn't make it to the Battle for Undercity:

http://woweh.com/?p=235

Cerah wrote: I still find it a shame that a tragic hero like Kael was downgraded to "he went crazy and turned evil" lorewise just because they needed raid bosses for TBC. Unlike Arthas, who was always a dick if "Arthas: Rise of the Lich King" is any indication, Kael genuinely did care about his people, his kingdom, and stepped up to his responsibilities. Yeah, he was arrogant, but what male blood elf isn't? He was a likable character, IMO, (and hot too! ), and I didn't like what happened to him.

I think Blizzard somewhere back in BC admitted they royally screwed up when it came to Kael and Illidan's demise.

Cerah wrote: Thrall, for all his great qualities as a leader, has screwed up royally by putting Garrosh in charge, and is just as much to blame for letting his personal feelings for Grom get in the way of what was best for the Horde. Saurfang, Vol'jin, Cairne before his death, hell, anyone in the Horde would have made a better subsitute Warchief.

This.

When it comes down to it, Garrosh is a stupid brute. One look at rebuilt Org is enough to tell you he has zero tactical sense, as it's COMPLETELY indefensible!

Saurfang would have been a far better choice...he's proven himself honorable over and over.

Davarra wrote:

Cerah wrote: Thrall, for all his great qualities as a leader, has screwed up royally by putting Garrosh in charge, and is just as much to blame for letting his personal feelings for Grom get in the way of what was best for the Horde. Saurfang, Vol'jin, Cairne before his death, hell, anyone in the Horde would have made a better subsitute Warchief.

This.

When it comes down to it, Garrosh is a stupid brute. One look at rebuilt Org is enough to tell you he has zero tactical sense, as it's COMPLETELY indefensible!

Saurfang would have been a far better choice...he's proven himself honorable over and over.

Well there are two ways of looking at it really. Thrall appointing Garrosh as Warchief was originally meant to be a temporary thing, and one school of thought is that Thrall will return after Deathwing's demise to reassume his position. Depending on what chain of potential lore you tend to lean toward that may happen, or Thrall may become something "more" than he is already.

Another school of thought is that as a coalition the Horde will fall apart under Garrosh's leadership. I don't see that happening, for as much as Garrosh is well, "Orcish" he's also shown the capacity to learn quickly and even if he doesn't like it, listen to advice that he doesn't care for. I think what you're seeing now is that they're trying to flesh to a new generation of Horde leaders, and with Baine and Garrosh you're getting that.

Then there's the other potential future that involves a little brown bundle of orc from the union of Thrall and Aggra.

Saurfang at this stage is where Eitrigg was when he ran into Tirion Fordring just prior to Thrall's liberation campaign. He needs time to mourn the double loss of his son, who had he not died likely would have been the successor to a (at this time) childless Thrall.

Personally, I wonder if a shift in Sylvannas will only happen if they write in somehow a return of Alleria Windrunner.

Taluwen wrote:

Cerah wrote: I still find it a shame that a tragic hero like Kael was downgraded to "he went crazy and turned evil" lorewise just because they needed raid bosses for TBC. Unlike Arthas, who was always a dick if "Arthas: Rise of the Lich King" is any indication, Kael genuinely did care about his people, his kingdom, and stepped up to his responsibilities. Yeah, he was arrogant, but what male blood elf isn't? He was a likable character, IMO, (and hot too! ), and I didn't like what happened to him.

I think Blizzard somewhere back in BC admitted they royally screwed up when it came to Kael and Illidan's demise.

I'd have to agree with that, even in attempts to remedy lore afterwards (ie...the novel Arthas), you have what seems to be a petulent Kael, whose entire existence seems based on first being aloof (as High Elves were), then spurned by Jaina, to having essentially a blood feud with Arthas and allying with Illidan for that sole purpose, and somehow got "drunk" on power based on fel energy. I guess their idea was to show that fel energy was corrupting of not only the physical being, but of the heart and soul of the being as well.

Personally I always thought Thrall was a little too wise and even handed; in my view the leader should represent his/her followers - in every version of warcraft released to date, RTS or MMORPG, the orcs are bloodthirsty, battle loving savages - honorable to an extent, in similar fashion to how the vikings were honorable*, but ultimately a very violent and war loving race.

Whatever they may have originally been like in Outland, that's what they are now... and while pushing back their demonic taint gave them enough scruples to eschew slavery and form alliances with the rest of the horde, game marketing still basically dictates that they remain war hungry killers... Thrall served his purpose - to evolve orcs slightly from their WC1 incarnation (e.g. enough to make them a playable race without getting into trouble with RL human rights groups), but that purpose having long been served, he now sticks out among his people like a sore thumb.

I know Garrosh had his "lame period" in Nagrand, and that he remains basically a violent dope, but to me - that fits with most if not all of the jagged, primal, bloody orc depictions I've seen in-game and out, and it works.

For somewhat similar reasons I also applaud Varian's depiction is an aggressive, violent ruler - if all rulers (or the principal ones anyway) are depicted as careful, evenhanded individuals, then it becomes hard to justify the situation being a World of WARcraft, you know?

*In re: viking "honor", what I mean by that is, 1) fight often, 2) once you choose to attack a foe, never back down, otherwise 3) anything goes.

EDIT: Just to be clear, I do not mean to infer that vikings were "glorious", "cool" or anything else of a positive nature - they were awful and inhuman, even for the time they lived in - but that's reality. MMORPGs are another matter entirely...

Worba wrote:Personally I always thought Thrall was a little too wise and even handed; in my view the leader should represent his/her followers - in every version of warcraft released to date, RTS or MMORPG, the orcs are bloodthirsty, battle loving savages - honorable to an extent, in similar fashion to how the vikings were honorable*, but ultimately a very violent and war loving race.

And where are the vikings now? As much as you might admire their savageness and honour, one fact remains. Their "civilization" (if you can call it that) died out. Their way of life might have worked well for piliaging Europe, but when it came to actually running a nation, they fell flat on their faces, either being killed outright by their angry, now-well armed former victims, running into warriors even more "savage" then themselves (as they did in Newfoundland), or gradually integrating into peoples very much like those they once terrorized.

The Orcs, too, may have "started out" as viking-like savages in WCI, but they have evolved as a people since then -- all except Garrosh, it appears. The old world of the Orc heroes of the past that he emulates is gone. That way of thinking is as outdated and dangerous as facism in today's world. Garrosh must change his ways if he is to survive as an individual, never mind as a leader.

Oh the vikings were horrible bastards - look no further than what they did to the monks at Lindesfarne for confirmation of that. I do not like or respect them, and I'm glad they faded out; probably instead of "honor" I should have used something less loaded like "creed".

But - BUT. World of Warcraft is not Civilization or Simms; this is not about diplomacy or emerging into the modern era, it is about, well, WAR. Crudeness. Fighting. Blood. Horror. All the stuff that works in a dark fantasy world as purely escapist entertainment.

At least in my view, more "nuanced" individuals like Thrall get in the way of that.

I happen to think Garrosh is a sexy man beast.

Worba wrote:Oh the vikings were horrible bastards - look no further than what they did to the monks at Lindesfarne for confirmation of that. I do not like or respect them, and I'm glad they faded out; probably instead of "honor" I should have used something less loaded like "creed".

But - BUT. World of Warcraft is not Civilization or Simms; this is not about diplomacy or emerging into the modern era, it is about, well, WAR. Crudeness. Fighting. Blood. Horror. All the stuff that works in a dark fantasy world as purely escapist entertainment.

At least in my view, more "nuanced" individuals like Thrall get in the way of that.

I wouldn't say they faded out, but through their conquering and failures they spread influence into a great deal of other cultures and changed the course of Europe for better or worse through their efforts.

But it does sound that Cataclysm is going to fit your view a bit more with everyone on edge with each other, and Thrall being moved out of the way so that he can try to preserve the status quo.