The Lich Queen

[Setanta]

and did I mention that we learned in the Borean Tundra that gnomes have been proven to be the most unnatural beings...they're machines for crying out loud!

[Lazuly]

I mean in the same technical way, any parent could be considered to be creating life for their own purposes (generally carrying on the lineage). The only real difference between creating a 'natural' life and what Sylvanas is doing is that her 'children' have lived once before.

Perhaps from a Forsaken perspective it really is just a different flavor of the same thing. But I think that illustrates that the road the Forsaken are going down will end up clashing with the living races eventually. The prospect of being raised as an undead is horrifying to most people, and I'm not sure that they would want to coexist with a 'Lich Queen' who does such a thing to people who had no say in it, even if she was technically not their enemy. Azeroth has seen too much horror at the hands of undead to be okay with it.

It seems to me to be an issue that will cause a lot of strife in the future (I think that may have been Blizzard's reason for writing the story in this direction -- a lot of Cata plots are about increasing friction between various groups).

What I also don't get here, is why are so many people in this thread so attached to the idea of what's "natural" and the destruction of "nature".

If your culture reveres the natural world and it's cycles as divine, then you take the issue very seriously. To disrupt the natural world in such a way is to harm the Earth Mother's own self. It's one thing to pity beings that had no choice in their fate, but another when those beings start actively perpetuating their existence willfully.

[Setanta]

I can understand it being from an aspect of creating strife, as you put that seems to be a chain started in WoTLK with the Wrath Gate incident to the similar backgrounds of Thrall and Varian turning each into what the other should likely be. But I think as we've seen in the past, no matter how much mistrust and friction is created, the factions will pull together to try and accomplish the ultimate goal...the final demise of Neltharion.

[Ijomi]

She's "advocating" her people by taking innocents and changing them against their will.

I'm mystified by the opinion that is somehow noble.

I find it disgusting. Blizzard's own version of the Holocaust.

[Setanta]

She's "advocating" her people by taking innocents and changing them against their will.

I'm mystified by the opinion that is somehow noble.

I find it disgusting. Blizzard's own version of the Holocaust.

She's pleading in favor of her people by taking innocents? that doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

How is raising the dead to unlife a Holocaust?

[Ijomi]

Nothing gives her the right to force her choices on others. I doubt any of those "seeds" wanted to be planted in Hillsbrad. Are you honestly trying to say forcing people to embrace the plague is a good and decent thing? All the crying prisoners? Hell, even Ganoosh?

The majority of Forsaken despise the living. And many want them dead as a result. All of them.

Yeah, I can see the parallel just fine.

[Setanta]

Nothing gives her the right to force her choices on others. I doubt any of those "seeds" wanted to be planted in Hillsbrad. Are you honestly trying to say forcing people to embrace the plague is a good and decent thing? All the crying prisoners? Hell, even Ganoosh?

The majority of Forsaken despise the living. And many want them dead as a result. All of them.

Yeah, I can see the parallel just fine.

a majority of the Humans in the games despise the Orcs. And many want them dead as a result? So by that reasoning Blizzard seems to favor Xenocide in many flavors

[Ijomi]

Exactly. And none of it is right.

[Setanta]

Well the problem there is that kind of thought process is ingrained into humanity as a whole, whether it's justifiable or not. It's a natural reaction that has created the culture of warfare within the species for thousands of years. Not every forsaken hates the living, some just wish to be left alone just as they did when they were alive. Some remember being hunted down by the Scarlet Crusade and bear a grudge for that.

I just can't believe that every dead being that is raised by the Val'kyr to bolster the population of the Forsaken is an innocent. I'd also wager that Sylvanas is just as likely to be able to raise the revered dead of Lordaeron as Arthas was with them all being interred in Holy Ground under Light's Hope Chapel.

[Ijomi]

The thing is, innocent or not? If they do not -want- to be turned, then it is not her place to kill them and raise them. I doubt most of those farmers and their families were wicked either, and no one certainly deserves that sort of fate. Or do the Forsaken backing this not care they are essentially becoming the Lich King themselves in carrying out their goals? The Lich King they despised so much for....what, again?

Oh yeah.

Taking their free will, along with their lives.

Sylvanas is a hypocrite to a horrifying extent.

[Anyia]

I doubt any of those "seeds" wanted to be planted in Hillsbrad.

Caution: spoiler alert!

Those "seeds" were not Sylvanas sanctioned - that was one rogue researcher who'd been dabbling in things he really should not have been. He even managed to commit the One Big Atrocity as far as the Forsaken are concerned - turning Forsaken into mindless servants.

[Lisaara]

Sylvanas is a hypocrite to a horrifying extent.

Thank you!

[Ijomi]

And Southshore? Sylvanas has sanctioned enough to make her stance quite plain.

One Big Atrocity also didn't extend to the "mind slaves" in the Undercity, I notice.

[Setanta]

if you are deceased, and not yet unliving..exactly what free will does a rotting corpse with no life really have?

[Ijomi]

Was she sneaking into graveyards at night and digging up long-forgotten bodies? No. She moved against the living....and not just military, but civilians....FAMILIES....with the express intent to raise them as undead. Let me say that again. She killed them to raise them. You aren't going to be able to polish her into a hero in that, no matter how hard you scrub at the blood. There is no difference between her and Arthas at this point, except the scale....and at this rate, there is little to stop her from thinking bigger.

[Anyia]

There is no difference between her and Arthas at this point

Isn't it (the difference) obvious? She serves the Horde...

[Ijomi]

XD And we all know how well THAT line went over.

[Setanta]

I never tried to paint her as a hero. I was more amused by the constant insinuation that what she was doing was "unnatural". It's part of the moral ambiguity of the game to me. It seems vile and disgusting to non-forsaken outsiders, but in terms of storyline for the forsaken her actions seem to carry justification.

In my opinion, I think a fair portion of the way she is acting is that she's rediverting the energy she once spent focusing solely on the demise of Arthas Menethil although the way he met his end isn't quite the ending that Sylvanas Windrunner had in mind for him. You could also point to the Emerald Nightmare and how it affected not only Sylvanas (forced to relive her being killed and raised as a banshee by Arthas over and over being unable to change it) but other Forsaken who fell under it's sway. Between the two things it's easy to draw a line that something may or may not have snapped in her, and throw in the losses the Forsaken had in Northrend, which aren't as easily replaceable as the "living" races.

Not to mention the rampant speculation that she knew about what Putress was doing, and may have even clandestinely sanctioned it. Despite the fact that Blizz has tried to continually give the impression that it was Varimathras and Putress acting in concert to achieve gains for the Burning Legion.

[Ijomi]

Forcing yourself on another -is- unnatural. Where her motives may be ambiguous, her actions are not. The irony is, it's vile and disgusting to the Forsaken themselves....but only so far as how it happened to them. They don't seem to notice the hypocrisy in their actions....which is a bit disturbing, since even GARROSH was able to see it.

And, she's still using the Blight that Putress concocted, again against orders. I have doubts that she was unaware of the atrocities myself.

[Turgus]

Lazuly wrote: It's biological fact. When a living thing dies and breaks down, its remains become the building blocks used to create new life (food for plants, bacteria, animals, etc).

It is a generally recognized fact that organic matter can be used by organisms for a variety of purposes; the vast majority is actually used for metabolic processes, and some of it is used for reproduction. Of course there are organisms that don’t follow these rules, like viruses, which actually make up the vast majority of organisms on the planet. (both in population and biomass)

Lazuly wrote: All matter is recycled via natural processes. If that process were to cease, the natural world would suffer and die. You see this plainly in all the Scourge and Plague-infested zones.

No, the vast majority of “matter” is actually not used or reused by any organism. It’s actually quite the opposite. Also, the “natural” world, or simply put, the planet that we know, requires large levels of energy input for “life.” So by any definition, life is not self sustaining. Also, what I see in the Plaguelands is not the lack of life, but a different kind of ecosystem, with carrion worms and bats, and nasty trees with growths all over them. Sure it might look nasty, but lack of life? That would look much more like a desert.

Lazuly wrote: Keeping a dead thing alive with magic and cutting it off from the life cycle it was born into is as far from 'natural' as you can get.

No, being turned undead does not necessarily cut it off from biological processes. From what I understand undead still rot, and slowly die. Of course this takes a bit longer than the normal life span of some organisms.

Lazuly wrote: Plus, like I said before, who is asking these 'new' undead that Sylvanas is running around creating if they WANTED to be in this state?

So you are asserting that only people who choose to be brought back should be brought back?
That this is something that the persons will should be taken into account?
Sure, I can agree to that in some cases.
I would disagree to this during war.
Did people in World War I get to choose if they were going to go to war? How about World War II? Vietnam? The Korean War?
Sorry, sometimes you are thrown into a situation that you have no choice over.
Sure, being brought back as an undead might suck, but you would still have free will, and if you wanted to you could fight the people that brought you back.

Lazuly wrote: How is forcing people into becoming undead in any way 'okay'? Sylvanas needs cannon fodder, that's the only reason she's doing it, and she doesn't care what the people those bodies belong to want. That's not right. She's doing the same as the Lich King in that regard.

In war, as in many things, the end justifies the means.
Yes, she needs soldiers.
And she will do whatever is necessary to have her people survive, including bringing back the dead.

How is this any different than the other members of the Horde or the Alliance?
Do their citizens get to choose to fight? Or are they forced to?
Are they forced to produce weapons and armor? Food and clothing?

They do not have a choice. All able bodied individuals have to contribute to the war effort, be it by serving as a soldier or whatever.