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I've been using Survival as my main spec since Wraths release. It was pretty much the spec everyone wanted. I love it's burst damage... However I've recently been tempted by a couple of friends of mine to drop it in favor of Marks. I've heard that Marks hunters are currently the top dps spec for Hunters.

I'm perfectly willing to try it out, I'd have to look up the new shot rotation, but I also want peoples opinion before I spend the money to respec. Should I or shouldn't I?

Broken record time!

It's up to you.

You can do solid dps in either spec.

If the question is more along the lines of "is my gear good enough to try it?" the answer is yes. Otherwise, it's entirely up to you.

The marks rotation is a bit more complex/involved than the survival one, so if you know up front that that playstyle isn't your cup of tea, then I'd recommend staying surv. But if it doesn't bother you to mash a bunch of buttons, then by all means, try it.

I call a bullcorn on Kalliope (JK i luvz her) But... as someone who has raided as all three specs, I can honestly say that I LOVE all three. I consistently switch it up between my MM and BM spec in raids and Heroics. I agree with the Comment above. Switch to a SV PvE build, and you'll almost automatically see a dps boost. Oh, and what I was getting at with the Kalliope thing is that I feel that SV was much harder to squeeze every bit of DPS out of than MM was/is... Especially with the ES/LnL proc timing. SO, as always said here. Do what you want to. I personally would love to get Tri-spec so I could have a SV dps build as well... but I can't =(

Ha, Gim!!! No offense taken. I find surv harder than marks myself, but then, I love marks, so that's probably why. I've heard many people complain that marks is too many buttons, so I take that into consideration when recommending marks to others. It's harder to them because other specs suit them better. See what I mean?

Anyway, yes, swap to a pure PvE build regardless. xD

I'm going to go and experiment with a Marks build for now. If I don't like it, it's back to Survival. XP

I found out that if you don't have a enough Armour pen rating then you will take a dps hit. When I went back to surv I noticed my dps shot up about 500-1000. I peaked over 6k in ICC on some of the trash leading up to rotface and them. The best I could do and this was giving it everything I had was like 5300-5400 dps.

I like Marksmanship far more than Survival, but really, the key factor is play what you like the best. Yes, Marks is the highest DPS in end-game gear, but that is accompanied by the usual caveats that you know the spec very well, know the rotation and proper use of cooldowns and procs and so on and so forth.

A key skill needed by Marksmen is that you can competently move and fire, that you can allow your Auto Shots to go off when they are ready. If you can't do this, you will lose a lot of DPS.

It is not true that Armour Penetration makes the spec. ArPen is a great perquisite to the spec, but it's a myth that you need x-amount of ArPen to go Marks.

Marksmanship is a very intricate and fiddly spec and it will take some time to get accustomed to it. But I really think it's a lot of fun and it's a spec that rewards the effort you put into it.

Anansi wrote:I like Marksmanship far more than Survival, but really, the key factor is play what you like the best. Yes, Marks is the highest DPS in end-game gear, but that is accompanied by the usual caveats that you know the spec very well, know the rotation and proper use of cooldowns and procs and so on and so forth.

A key skill needed by Marksmen is that you can competently move and fire, that you can allow your Auto Shots to go off when they are ready. If you can't do this, you will lose a lot of DPS.

It is not true that Armour Penetration makes the spec. ArPen is a great perquisite to the spec, but it's a myth that you need x-amount of ArPen to go Marks.

Marksmanship is a very intricate and fiddly spec and it will take some time to get accustomed to it. But I really think it's a lot of fun and it's a spec that rewards the effort you put into it.

Well I did the spec based on what alot of hunters where using and I looked up the shot rotation and I was using it. I went to surv and use the shot rotation listed in the hunter forums in mmo champion and my dps shot up. I like both specs really. I find however surv is better for pvp for it's burst and that shot that puts them to sleep.

I love MM. I've always been MM. It's my thing. That it happens to be top now is just awesome. Stereo is nowhere near ArP cap, yet she still uses MM. I couldn't possibly wrap my head around SV or BM. I made her spec myself, and I'm happy with it. A decent mix of utility and DPS stuff.

My suggestion is to try MM for a while and see if you like it.

I will admit, I do -LOVE- marks pvp. The fact I can screw over casters just makes me happy. <3

As far as raids go, I'm still getting a bit used to it. /nod. So far I do like it. Even if the rotation confuses me a bit. D:

Kalliope wrote:I find surv harder than marks myself, but then, I love marks, so that's probably why. I've heard many people complain that marks is too many buttons, so I take that into consideration when recommending marks to others.

*Marks* is too many buttons? What the heck does that make SV?

I only switched to MM recently, and I think SV was significantly more complicated.

SV "things to do for single-target DPS", with MM comparisons in parentheses:
- keep Hunter's Mark up (both MM and SV do this)
- use Kill Shot when available (both MM and SV do this)
- keep SrS up for the damage boost (MM gets SrS auto-refresh from Chimera)
- use Black Arrow on CD (nearest MM equivalent is using Chimera on CD)
- use Aimed on CD (both MM and SV do this)
- use Explosive on CD and on LnL proc without clipping (no MM equivalent, as ArPen MM build prefers Steady to Arcane)
- use Steady Shot as "default" shot

The one additional complexity in MM is slotting in Silencing Shot as off-the-GCD damage, but that can be handled with macros rather than needing an extra button. I have a macro for Aimed Shot that handles that task (so Silencing will go off every second Aimed Shot, and I can swap the basic Aimed Shot in if I want to reserve Silencing for use as an actual interrupt). SV, on the other hand, has to manually refresh Serpent Sting and make full use of LnL procs.

The one thing I miss severely in going MM is that I no longer bring my own replenishment, so now I really notice if we don't have anyone else bringing that buff along. I suspect any severe DPS drops going from SV to MM are more likely to be due to extra time spent in Viper rather than any increase in the complexity of the rotation. You're also much more dependent on Sunder/Expose Armor in order to do good damage (since you've traded a heavily Fire/Shadow/Nature focused build for one that is primarily physical with a relatively small nature damage component).

Nimizar wrote:

Kalliope wrote:I find surv harder than marks myself, but then, I love marks, so that's probably why. I've heard many people complain that marks is too many buttons, so I take that into consideration when recommending marks to others.

*Marks* is too many buttons? What the heck does that make SV?

I only switched to MM recently, and I think SV was significantly more complicated.

It is, really.

My guess is that people just count up the number of shots used and assume that it's harder.

The refresh on stings is actually one of the greatest appeals of marks to me. Of course, making sure that you always have a maximum power sting up at ALL TIMES can be a pain. -_-

I think Survival is more complicated due to the needing to keep an eye on your DoTs (Serpent Sting, Black Arrow) and watch for and manage Lock & Load procs, along with all your other CDs (Rapid Fire, Furious Howl, racials). Marksmanship has a lot of CD management, but the shots are pretty much fire and forget, we don't need to watch our Serpent Sting DoT, and the other shots and bonuses require no management.
In later game when you've dropped Arcane Shot it's even simpler.

I definitely see the appeal of Survival, and had I leveled the spec and been with it for a long time, I'd probably stick with it regardless of Marks being theoretical top DPS. Survival is very hands-on and has the most self reliance talents, which is very appealing. What turned me off it (I played the spec for about two months prior to Black Arrow being introduced) was that I started to feel that Survival was the Warlock of the Hunter class with a focus on DoTs.
Still, in theory, I think it's a great spec and heavily rewards the players who are good at it.

I just respec'd to MM from Sur.
Still trying to get used to the rotation.. But right now my dps seems low.. I have never realy used macros for shots and would'nt know the first thing to do.. My armpen is 700 plus.. but my hit is low around 300. I have re gemed into mostley armpen gems and think that might be the prob with the low hit rating.. I'm mostly in 245 and 264 gear...

Azzrazzah wrote:I just respec'd to MM from Sur.
Still trying to get used to the rotation.. But right now my dps seems low.. I have never realy used macros for shots and would'nt know the first thing to do.. My armpen is 700 plus.. but my hit is low around 300. I have re gemed into mostley armpen gems and think that might be the prob with the low hit rating.. I'm mostly in 245 and 264 gear...

Well your Hit only needs to be 274 (8%) so you're actually over the cap, which is lost itemization points.

You don't need to gem ArPen yet, focus on Agility (+20 AGI gems for Red slots, +10 AGI/+10 Crit for Yellow slots, use one +10 Stats in a Blue slot for your meta gem activation). Don't gem ArPen until your passive (ie gear only, no gems or procs) is around 800 or so - that way when you do gem for it and hopefully have an ArPen proc item, you'll hit the hard cap or be pretty close to it. Prior to that, you'll get more out of AGI.

As for macros, put Silencing Shot on your main shots along with Kill Command.

Rotation should be basically Chimera Shot>Aimed Shot>Steady Shot, using Kill Shot whenever it is available and always start with Serpent Sting (and Hunter's Mark of course). Use Rapid Fire in conjunction with Readiness as well.