Armor penetration

[Adam-Savage]

I know they nerfed Armor penetration in the last major patch. How useful is the spec and if I loose some from gear change is that much a of a loose ?

[SpiritBinder]

Well 1st of all you have to really mean it!

2nd ,If you try and use it as a SV Hunter people will /bishslap you on site, as Explosive Shot is your bread and butter, and does magic damage, ergo, ArmP wont effect it.

3rd, MM will be your main spec of choice to make it work to the best it can be

4th, Research you gear options before you make the swap to it.
Generally speaking, an ArmP trinket of some sort is a bit of a must. A Must unless you can max out 1400 ArmP with out it. Dear god it sounds impossible, but apparently is, If you have BIS items from the game in every slot available... errrr LOL.

5th, Now you'll want to aim for 1400ish ArmP including your trinket proc for you to be benefiting from it the most. The more you get the better it scales. But if you’re falling to short of this number, you will hurt your dps... a lot. It's one of those things that gets better and better the more you have.

6th, Armp Trinkets that are available with out selling your 1st born are, Grim Toll, Mjolnir Runestone and Needle Encrusted Scorpion. Al have different proc amounts and lengths, making some easier to achieve the ArmP soft cap. For an example, Grim toll has a 612 Armp Proc, which means to hit the cap of 1400ish, you will need about 788 ArmP.

7th, Gemming will be required, don’t worry about socket bonuses until you reach your ArmP softcap. The only one you need to activate is your meta. Once you reach your soft cap you can then look back upon your gem choices, or just keep stacking, your call.

8th, make sure your MM build is a Cookie Armp Build, or at least as close as you feel comfortable not skipping over the major talents.

9th, Adjust your rotation, at this amount of ArmP your SS will now out dps your Arcane shot and AS is magic damage and SS works with ArmP. I try and use it only when i have to shoot on the run.

10th, MM ArmP builds will favour some fights, and disfavours others, you just have to know that some times you'll shine like a big ass star, and others you'll be cussing the hybrids.

Last of all, Have fun with it. I hated it for a good week as i was so used to SV and was dam good at knowing all my cool downs. I decided to bite the MM bullet/arrow when I saw the insane amount of ArmP on ICC gear and TOC gear to a lesser extent.

Now most of this info is what I have read/researched/studied from lots of different web sites/forums/etc. I don’t swear that this is the best or only way, however. When I finally had the gear and made the swap, My DPS went up allot more then I thought it would. I am enjoying it allot more, but I tend to stay away from pvp now as I am still not used to having all my CC tricks up my sleave .

[Adam-Savage]

Well I swaped it out for a Tier 10 piece that droped in VOA. I had http://www.wowarmory.com/item-info.xml?i=48250

And I replaced that with http://www.wowarmory.com/item-info.xml?i=50116

[SpiritBinder]

Well I swaped it out for a Tier 10 piece that droped in VOA

Well aren't you one lucky little hunter , [Tier 10 piece] = 1/2% drop rate.... thats it! I'm not helping you anymore!.... /jokes
Gratz on some very nice legs!

[Adam-Savage]

Aww Crap I posted the wrong piece. I meant to put this as the gear piece I replaced. =============> http://www.wowarmory.com/item-info.xml?i=48258

[Danielfboone]

Personally, I think the whole thing about ArP is overrated, even for MM. Crit is still worth more per point than ArP is. I do not gem for ArP at all. I just go with whatever there is on the gear and trinkets I manage to pick up. I'm currently at 512 and I have the Needle Encrusted Scorpion. All my gems and enchants are Agi based. My Arcane shot does more damage than my Steady shot does so it is in my rotation but without any points in Improved. For some reason, my Wild Quiver shot usually does more damage than my regular Auto shot as well.

My theoretical dps in the Hunter Spreadsheet is over 10.4k and switching out a 20 Agi gem for a 20 ArP one results in a 2dps loss for each gem changed. I would never gem ArP.

[Dulanie]

One major thing to consider with ArmPen is that it will be gone totally when Cata comes out. So you have to ask yourself ....Is it worth all the time and gold on something that will gone in a few months?

[Anansi]

The only time you gem and/or enchant for ArPen is when you need a few more points to reach the hard cap (1400). It is a complete waste to gem/enchant for it otherwise. AGI is still the Marksman's best point for point attribute (barring Hit-til-capped). And of course Crit is worth more than ArPen, nobody has ever, intelligently, claimed otherwise. But ArPen is still important for Marksman Hunters as it boosts our Aimed Shot which procs Piercing Shot bleeds, allows more impact from our AutoShot and Steady Shot, and for those not using macros for shot rotations ensures that Improved Steady Shot procs always apply to Chimera Shot (as Arcane is out of the rotation). The removal of Arcane Shot is also much better for our mana pool meaning more DPS up-time.
ArPen is a significant DPS tool for Marksman, but of course it does not take precedence over core Hunter attributes like AGI and Crit.

As for ArPen in Cataclysm, it is not going away completely but is being removed from gear and instead is being folded into the new Mastery system and will still function passively behind the scenes.

[Epicfail]

Just to add to the very accurate posts above...

1) Volley is not affected by Arp, but Marksman does have talents that increase its damage (barrage, imp barrage). In raiding you generally want a balance between single target and AOE, since you will be relied on to handle both.

2) Working with Femaledwarf.com, with all of my Omnomnom Best in Slot gears in place with agi gems, if I swap to Arp gems to hit the hard cap, I really don't gain any significant dps overall (single target). With that in mind, see above volley information. Now, this is using the spreadsheet math, not real numbers, so I can't really advise you but to say, stay gemming agi, agi/crit.

3. When choosing between surv/marks, the real question is which rotation really floats your boat. I played BM since classic until the dual spec came out and I figured I'd build a hefty raiding spec. I chose surv first due to my lower gearscore and my dps went from 1.3k to about 2.5-3k. I didn't like the rotation so much, so I tried out marks. My dps seemed to increase a little (and then moreso with NES and getting a 232 xbow) and I like the rotation a lot better. Its a personal preference. Try them out and see which works for you. The one you like better, may be the one you do better dps with, regardless of the raw numbers.

[Danielfboone]

I still don't agree with removing Arcane shot from the rotation. I do significantly more damage with it in than without it and I never have mana issues in 25 man raids.

I really don't pay attention to how much ArP I have. I rely on the spreadsheet to tell me which piece of gear will up my dps the most and whatever stats it has, so be it. I just got the Distant Land Staff from Festergut last night and replaced my Archon Glaive with it. I lost 90 ArP and gained 108 Haste (plus some increase in agi, Ap,and crit) and my dps in the spreadsheet jumped up by 113. I also noticed my actual dps in the game to be higher and my MM shot rotation to be smoother. A couple of people asked why I wanted it because I lost ArP. I just told them that ArP is not the Godly stat some make it out to be. The math used in Hunter dps is far too complicated for me to be able to make gear decisions without relying on a tool like the Spreadsheet.

Also, if in a shot macro, Chimera shot is always the first shot fired after the steady shots, the ISS procs will always apply to it. I use a macro but Chimera and Aimed come before Arcane. This means that Arcane is not used as often as it could be but it seems to work out well for me that way.

[Epicfail]

I still don't agree with removing Arcane shot from the rotation. I do significantly more damage with it in than without it and I never have mana issues in 25 man raids.

I really don't pay attention to how much ArP I have. I rely on the spreadsheet to tell me which piece of gear will up my dps the most and whatever stats it has, so be it. I just got the Distant Land Staff from Festergut last night and replaced my Archon Glaive with it. I lost 90 ArP and gained 108 Haste (plus some increase in agi, Ap,and crit) and my dps in the spreadsheet jumped up by 113. I also noticed my actual dps in the game to be higher and my MM shot rotation to be smoother. A couple of people asked why I wanted it because I lost ArP. I just told them that ArP is not the Godly stat some make it out to be. The math used in Hunter dps is far too complicated for me to be able to make gear decisions without relying on a tool like the Spreadsheet.

Also, if in a shot macro, Chimera shot is always the first shot fired after the steady shots, the ISS procs will always apply to it. I use a macro but Chimera and Aimed come before Arcane. This means that Arcane is not used as often as it could be but it seems to work out well for me that way.

I completely understand this. Not to mention, Blizz has already stated in the matter of "plate wearers gearing in leather pieces" that they are going to make the right stats/armor work for the classes that can wear it. That includes hunters rolling leather for arp too, although to a lesser extent over say a Fury War.

My point is, once Arp becomes Mastery, there may be a 500 point mastery "cap" or a severe diminishing return of mastery over 600. The best way to gear and gem right now is to stick with what you know stays true to the class and the majority of the gear for it (although even that can change). The theme at blizzcon was that mathy and complex builds are going to get renovated into simpler, easier to understand qualities/quantities. Now, they may be renovated to your favor for gemming/gearing towards that, but chances are they are looking for a balance of key stats...

I'm actually predicting they are going to translate hit rating into a straight percentage (per level), so you know on your gear totals if hit is capped at 100% with present gear or not. Arp could easily be changed to something like that too (on a 100% scale). Maybe they spread out the hit rating percentages like a bar that fills to red when you are base hit capped, then refills yellow when you are poison capped and refills green when you are fully capped for all spells/abilities. Maybe hit and arp join forces and become mastery, meaning its the "raiding stat" of choice up to a certain cap to avoid misses and do the most damage possible per shot... Predictions are fun

[Adam-Savage]

Hmm ok so arm pen is not that big of a deal. If the gear has it great but don't pick one gear over another for armor pen. I know haste is one thing that is handy to have for the steady shot.

[Anansi]

Hmm ok so arm pen that big of a deal. If the gear has it great but don't pick one gear over another for armor pen. I know haste is one thing that is handy to have for the steady shot.

Well you will get more out of ArPen than out of Haste. Haste is also a stat that you cannot rely on the spreadsheets to model as they grossly overvalue the stat (this is just a by-product of how the spreadsheets model and calculate your damage potential).

[Kalliope]

I wouldn't gem for ArP anymore, but if you stack more pieces with crit/ArP than with haste, you'll be fine.

Like looking at the t10 gear, you actually want the crafted legs, since that's the only tier piece with haste instead of ArP.

[Anansi]

I wouldn't gem for ArP anymore, but if you stack more pieces with crit/ArP than with haste, you'll be fine.

Like looking at the t10 gear, you actually want the crafted legs, since that's the only tier piece with haste instead of ArP.

Yes, the crafted legs are far better than the T10 legs until you're looking at the Sanctified upgrade.
Of course the T10 legs are potentially free if you can get them in a drop from the new VOA boss vs acquiring 8 Primordial Saronite for the Draconic Bonesplitter legs. Most expensive piece of gear I've ever owned.....

[Danielfboone]

Hmm ok so arm pen that big of a deal. If the gear has it great but don't pick one gear over another for armor pen. I know haste is one thing that is handy to have for the steady shot.

Well you will get more out of ArPen than out of Haste. Haste is also a stat that you cannot rely on the spreadsheets to model as they grossly overvalue the stat (this is just a by-product of how the spreadsheets model and calculate your damage potential).

I don't think they overstate it at all. A certain amount of haste is good, especially for MM and SV. BM doesn't really need any extra haste but it still will boost your dps, just not as much as for the other 2 specs. Hunters can easily go overboard with it but If you just take what you get from gear, it's fine. I have known some Hunters who would never use a piece that has haste on it and that's just stupid. As I said, I use the spreadsheet to make my gear decisions and whatever piece it says is the best upgrade in a particular slot is the one I go for, regardless of the distribution of stats. The people who make the sheet know far more about the math than I will ever know and trying to judge gear just by looking at it's stats is an exercise in futility.

Even for BM, if your steady shot is already hasted as much as it can be, a little more haste will still increase dps of your auto shot so it's never entirely useless. Sometimes, just the right amount of haste will smooth out your shot rotation and therefore increase dps as well. The spreadsheet automatically refigures your shot rotation and timings for each change you plug in to your current gear set as well as refiguring the effects of the changes in all of the other stats.

ArP is a good stat but it is a better thing for melee classes than for Hunters of any spec. By all means, take what you can get but I personally would not recommend stacking it to the exclusion of Agility.

Hunter dps is probably the most complicated to calculate of all the classes.

[Adam-Savage]

I wouldn't gem for ArP anymore, but if you stack more pieces with crit/ArP than with haste, you'll be fine.

Like looking at the t10 gear, you actually want the crafted legs, since that's the only tier piece with haste instead of ArP.

Yes, the crafted legs are far better than the T10 legs until you're looking at the Sanctified upgrade.
Of course the T10 legs are potentially free if you can get them in a drop from the new VOA boss vs acquiring 8 Primordial Saronite for the Draconic Bonesplitter legs. Most expensive piece of gear I've ever owned.....

They dropped for me in VOA.

http://www.wowarmory.com/character-shee ... Adamsavage

[Wassa]

With the current ICC gear, arp is a very important stat for ALL hunter specs. Yus, this includes survival. However, I would not stack arp gems for any spec. Stick with agi gems.

Haste is our least important dps stat, as it only affects auto and steady. However, I wouldn't ignore it all together, but I prefer gear with arp over gear with haste everytime.

Also, instead of the crafted leggings, if you guild can down Lady Deathwhisper in 25 man go for Leggings of Northern Lights instead. Much cheaper. Just need to pray that they drop.

[Saturo]

]Haste is our least important dps stat, as it only affects auto and steady. However, I wouldn't ignore it all together, but I prefer gear with arp over gear with haste everytime.

Actually, it's important to reach our haste cap, at which point Steady will cast at 1.5 secs. This can add tremendously to every rotation.

[Wassa]

Actually, it's important to reach our haste cap, at which point Steady will cast at 1.5 secs. This can add tremendously to every rotation.

Yus, this was very important back in Naxx when our gear had very little arp that it wasn't worth going for arp, so haste capping our GCD was a great way to improve our dps.

Now with so much arp on ICC gear, and arp scales very well as a stat, haste isn't as important. Of course I'm not saying to ignore haste. Now that isn't smart. Haste helps, but arp, crit, agi, and ap will go much further for improving your dps.

Here is a thread on Elitist Jerks that can explain it better than I can:

4.5 Armor Penetration

A large percentage of the damage in an SV spec is not affected by ArPen (only kill shot, autoshot, aimed/multishot and steady shot are). That being said, the more ArPen you have, the better it gets, so it scales extremely well as a stat when you have a lot of it. At low gear levels it isn't a very attractive stat, but given it's a stronger stat than haste and most gear you want will have it on there, you will quickly get to a point where it becomes close to as valuable to crit and may possibly surpass it.

4.6 Haste

Haste is considered to be a poor stat for all hunter specs. The only shots affected by haste are autoshot and steady shot. Steady shot is worth very little dps compared to other shots (and is a small proportion of the SV damage breakdown) so stacking haste to get it down to the GCD is not recommended when you can get more bang for your stat buck with agility, crit, ArPen and AP.

http://elitistjerks.com/f74/t90607-surv ... ter_3_3_a/ Full thread.