A Proposition for Beast Mastery Pets

[Lisaara]

Well guys. Let me put it this way.

If they should ever give us exotics at level 10.....

10 bucks says they will take away their second ability. PERMANENTLY. Blizzard is known for this sort of thing to pull.

So is that really worth it to you then? Ask yourself that cause that's exactly what would happen because it would cause an uproar.

Or, in a nerfy huff they could restrict bows/guns proficiency to 40, thus requiring new hunters to first learn the ropes as melee hunters - are we all prepared for THAT??

20 bucks say they won't, and that any pet abilities pre-69 would be handled by simple scaling logic.

They just got rid of scaling spells, meaning they arent going to put it back just for exotics.

While that would suck, I'd deal with it. Not the end of the world, as you put it in a previous topic.

[Worba]

I noticed you commented it was just a minor gripe, meaning you yourself can deal with it. you acknowledge it sucks but it's not the end of the world.

This topic, so far, seems to make it look like it's a big deal and it is the end of the world if we cant get exotics as lowbies. Just a pattern I'm noticing. Not trying to be mean or rude.

As you acknowledged I have a healthy perspective on this issue, I'm not sure what you're getting at here - does proposing an improvement to your favorite class now indicate doomsday mentality?

[Worba]

They just got rid of scaling spells, meaning they arent going to put it back just for exotics.

While that would suck, I'd deal with it. Not the end of the world, as you put it in a previous topic.

Everything scales directly or indirectly, whether it has a fancy / visible "Rank n" attached to the name, or not.

[Lisaara]

I noticed you commented it was just a minor gripe, meaning you yourself can deal with it. you acknowledge it sucks but it's not the end of the world.

This topic, so far, seems to make it look like it's a big deal and it is the end of the world if we cant get exotics as lowbies. Just a pattern I'm noticing. Not trying to be mean or rude.

As you acknowledged I have a health perspective on this issue, I'm not sure what you're getting at here - does proposing an improvement to your favorite class now indicate doomsday mentality?

I personally don't view this as an improvement, so no. I view this as like getting paid without actually doing work to earn the paycheck. I'm pretty sure, currently, Blizzard probably views it the same way and thats why things are they way they are. i firmly stick by this view unless a better improvement is suggested that doesnt totally flipflop the hunter tree and reward people before they actually play the class enough to earn said reward.

I also think you're ignoring the fact that was pointed out....Shamans would have a FIT should hunter tame corehounds at lvl 10. A lot of them are already slightly unhappy corehounds have a heroism cause they can't get heroism til 70. But since 69 - 70 isnt a huge difference, most tolerate it. Should it be a difference between 10 and 70, a storm will brew bigger than Deathwing himself. So why would Blizzard change something so drastically and open up a big can of drama?

See, I wouldn't mind it being altered a tiny bit, like lower it to 60 or 65 instead of 69. But 10? Absolutely not. Level 50 is the lowest I'd go with that. Anything under is too low.

[Adam-Savage]

I think the lowest they should go for exotic's is lvl 50. I say this because I remember leveling my horde hunter and I wanted to tame the devilsaurs in Unguro Crater. However I was unable to do so until level 60. I've heard some suggestions of bringing it down to lvl 10. There is no need for this at such a early level. Most new hunters at level 10 are still learning there class and probably don't even know what an exotic pet is. You have to think outside the box and think about the brand new hunters and not the current hunters who are making another hunter. Blizzard can't please everyone but they do try. I think bringing it up to 69 was to high. I think that either level 50 or 60 would be a good level range for hunters to tame exotics because at this range your starting to feel powerful and the exotic pet can help with this feeling.

[Lisaara]

I think the lowest they should go for exotic's is lvl 50. I say this because I remember leveling my horde hunter and I wanted to tame the devilsaurs in Unguro Crater. However I was unable to do so until level 60. I've heard some suggestions of bringing it down to lvl 10. There is no need for this at such a early level. Most new hunters at level 10 are still learning there class and probably don't even know what an exotic pet is. You have to think outside the box and think about the brand new hunters and not the current hunters who are making another hunter. Blizzard can't please everyone but they do try. I think bringing it up to 69 was to high that either level 50 or 60 would be a good level range for hunters to tame exotics because at this range your starting to feel powerful and the exotic pet can help with this feeling.

I totally agree with this.

[Cerah]

Well guys. Let me put it this way.

If they should ever give us exotics at level 10.....

10 bucks says they will take away their second ability. PERMANENTLY. Blizzard is known for this sort of thing to pull.

So is that really worth it to you then? Ask yourself that cause that's exactly what would happen because it would cause an uproar.

So you're suggesting that we shouldn't discuss any possible improvements/changes to our class, not even on an unofficial forum such as this, out of fear of the Big Bad Nerf Bat?

Blizzard will do what it wants, I realize this. I'm not deluding myself, but that does not mean we can't discuss alternatives. Freedom of speech/expression is kind of an important concept, even regarding a video game.

[Nanotrev]

I personally don't view this as an improvement, so no. I view this as like getting paid without actually doing work to earn the paycheck. I'm pretty sure, currently, Blizzard probably views it the same way and thats why things are they way they are. i firmly stick by this view unless a better improvement is suggested that doesnt totally flipflop the hunter tree and reward people before they actually play the class enough to earn said reward.

Once more, having Beast Mastery specific pets so early on without being overpowered and having them scaled down doesn't really present them as a reward. Existing pets such as cats still provide quite a nice buff they didn't before and they're not exotics. SV and MM hunters can get them at level 10 let alone BM hunters as well. We do not have to work to get them and there is no trophy of accomplishment.

I also think you're ignoring the fact that was pointed out....Shamans would have a FIT should hunter tame corehounds at lvl 10. A lot of them are already slightly unhappy corehounds have a heroism cause they can't get heroism til 70. But since 69 - 70 isnt a huge difference, most tolerate it. Should it be a difference between 10 and 70, a storm will brew bigger than Deathwing himself. So why would Blizzard change something so drastically and open up a big can of drama?

Ancient Hysteria could be toned down to scale as well. Shamans have much more potential at level ten and above than any hunter pet does. The ability would only become the same at around level 70 when before that time it wouldn't provide that much benefit nor would it be game-breaking. In terms of how Shamans and Core Hounds compete now, I've seen very few Core Hounds in raids to the point where I can say I've seen none. To further my explanation I decided to ask a shaman from the top raiding guild on my server. He pointed out that he currently does more DPS than Beast Mastery hunters do and the fact that he heals very well. Totems provide good buffs as well, not to mention the fact that he can also res people. In short, he doesn't feel that he's in any danger of being replaced. Heroism isn't what makes a Shaman a Shaman. In Cataclysm he says he'll be even more amazing with his heals. The shamans that post on the forums make up very little of the shaman player base. I hate to be generalizing so I decided to ask another shaman to get a second opinion. The response was something along the lines of that he thought it might make shamans less of a need for Heroism/Bloodlust although it would be only one of the many things he can do if there should be a Core Hound. The last thing he told me was that aside from not having to worry about Heroism "shammys are OP right now so i dont care too much."

See, I wouldn't mind it being altered a tiny bit, like lower it to 60 or 65 instead of 69. But 10? Absolutely not

I've heard some suggestions of bringing it down to lvl 10. There is no need for this at such a early level. Most new hunters at level 10 are still learning there class and probably don't even know what an exotic pet is.

As I stated before, it wouldn't be any different than having any other pet with the exception of a scaled-down buff until the higher levels. Thinking from a newbie hunter's perspective and how things are explained now I wouldn't have any problem understanding the difference and what I would have to do to get one depending if I wanted to change my play-style. Some people don't like depending so much on their pet and some people like commanding their pet. It just depends on how you enjoy playing the game.

I say this because I remember leveling my horde hunter and I wanted to tame the devilsaurs in Unguro Crater.

I think bringing it up to 69 was to high that either level 50 or 60 would be a good level range for hunters to tame exotics because at this range your starting to feel powerful and the exotic pet can help with this feeling.

The pet most people feel so powerful with would be a Devilsaur and seeing how large they are before tame I would understand that based on what you mentioned about them before . Despite this fact you still can't tame them until you hit level 54 at the earliest anyways.

[Shinryu Masaki]

I also think you're ignoring the fact that was pointed out....Shamans would have a FIT should hunter tame corehounds at lvl 10. A lot of them are already slightly unhappy corehounds have a heroism cause they can't get heroism til 70. But since 69 - 70 isnt a huge difference, most tolerate it. Should it be a difference between 10 and 70, a storm will brew bigger than Deathwing himself. So why would Blizzard change something so drastically and open up a big can of drama?

See, I wouldn't mind it being altered a tiny bit, like lower it to 60 or 65 instead of 69. But 10? Absolutely not. Level 50 is the lowest I'd go with that. Anything under is too low.

I'd like to point you back to this post:

I don't see why we can't tame Exotics at lower level and our final 31 Point talent is something that basically says that we've mastered our bond with our pets and have unlocked their full potential and that unlocks the Exotics' abilities and gives all our pets their extra talent points. That way we get our exotics, but we don't get the "overpowered" abilities too early.

Making us able to tame exotic pets at level 10 as a passive skill, and making our 31 pointer into a talent that unlocks the Exotic skills on exotic pets and giving us the 4 extra talent points would work and would definately prevent the massive QQ from shamans reguarding Heroism/Bloodlust. It would also make us stand out more compared to MM and SV hunters, cause right now Intimidation, as nice as it is, doesn't compare at all to what all other specs in the game gets at level 10, especially demo warlocks and frost mages. We can already forget about Bestial Wrath at level 10, Blizzard already made it clear we won't be getting that. Honestly, I wonder why they just didn't give us Kill Command instead of Intimidation, that would have been a lot better.

[Lisaara]

Shin: While a neat suggestion that I would be more in favor of, there's still a big problem with it. People want exotics for their buffs. If they dont give the buff, it's like having a normal pet. You might as well get a normal pet at that rate.

[Nanotrev]

Shin: While a neat suggestion that I would be more in favor of, there's still a big problem with it. People want exotics for their buffs. If they dont give the buff, it's like having a normal pet. You might as well get a normal pet at that rate.

Quoting myself.

As I stated before, it wouldn't be any different than having any other pet with the exception of a scaled-down buff until the higher levels. Thinking from a newbie hunter's perspective and how things are explained now I wouldn't have any problem understanding the difference and what I would have to do to get one depending if I wanted to change my play-style. Some people don't like depending so much on their pet and some people like commanding their pet. It just depends on how you enjoy playing the game.

[Shinryu Masaki]

Then might as well make Ancient Hysteria scale with level, just like Herbalism's Lifeblood.

Edit: For those that don't know, Lifeblood now gives us haste rating when we use it to heal ourselves, and we can get that as soon as we can learn the profession, which is what? Level 1? or was it 5?

[Adam-Savage]

*Unsubscribe from topic*

[Kalliope]

Gonna muse a bit here on why exotics are so high up the list and why they're likely to remain there, so bear with me.

Splitting exotics from their exotic abilities
There is ABSOLUTELY no difference between exotic pets and regular pets, save the secondary ability and a bunch of different looks, since their non-exotic abilities are standard. Blizzard most likely wants to keep the ability to tame exotics linked with the exotic ability of the pets because they wouldn't be exotic otherwise. This is actually a fair reasoning, since earning the right to tame exotics wouldn't mean quite as much were that the case. So even though on paper, I like the idea of splitting exotic pets from their exotic ability, just to allow for them to be tamed at a lower level, I can understand why Blizzard hasn't already done that.

Lowering the level exotics can be tamed at
So say we don't split the exotics from their exotic abilities and look to drop the level they can be tamed at. As previously mentioned, shammies (in general) are already pretty ticked that bloodlust/heroism has been given to two other classes. If our puppy lust ability drops to something reasonable, say level 60 or so, then it's likely that the shaman one would need to drop as well. This would wreck havoc on the shaman abilities and the order players receive them, since undoubtedly, something would have to move to replace hero/blust at level 70.

In other words, even a small level change would impact more than just us, just due to one exotic ability alone. This isn't even considering the other potentially overpowered abilities, even on the ones that could theoretically scale with level/gear (I'm looking at chimeras and worms here).

So it seems that this may all be part of Blizzard's reasoning for making us wait for exotics. We gain more flexibility in the later stages of the game, giving it up for a few more levels in earlier stages.

[Nanotrev]

Gonna muse a bit here on why exotics are so high up the list and why they're likely to remain there, so bear with me.

Splitting exotics from their exotic abilities
There is ABSOLUTELY no difference between exotic pets and regular pets, save the secondary ability and a bunch of different looks, since their non-exotic abilities are standard. Blizzard most likely wants to keep the ability to tame exotics linked with the exotic ability of the pets because they wouldn't be exotic otherwise. This is actually a fair reasoning, since earning the right to tame exotics wouldn't mean quite as much were that the case. So even though on paper, I like the idea of splitting exotic pets from their exotic ability, just to allow for them to be tamed at a lower level, I can understand why Blizzard hasn't already done that.

Lowering the level exotics can be tamed at
So say we don't split the exotics from their exotic abilities and look to drop the level they can be tamed at. As previously mentioned, shammies (in general) are already pretty ticked that bloodlust/heroism has been given to two other classes. If our puppy lust ability drops to something reasonable, say level 60 or so, then it's likely that the shaman one would need to drop as well. This would wreck havoc on the shaman abilities and the order players receive them, since undoubtedly, something would have to move to replace hero/blust at level 70.

In other words, even a small level change would impact more than just us, just due to one exotic ability alone. This isn't even considering the other potentially overpowered abilities, even on the ones that could theoretically scale with level/gear (I'm looking at chimeras and worms here).

So it seems that this may all be part of Blizzard's reasoning for making us wait for exotics. We gain more flexibility in the later stages of the game, giving it up for a few more levels in earlier stages.

One could still scale it, not to mention I've asked a few shammies already and they honestly don't mind. Shammies don't get Heroism immediately anyways so they wouldn't have anything to compare it with. If just one of the pet abilities causes problems with one of the classes Blizzard could make it so that Core Hounds don't get the ability until level 69. Worms could also be scaled down as I'd mentioned before concerning all exotics along with Chimeras. Silithids could be even more easily scaled since their buff is like that of a priest's.

[Lisaara]

Gonna muse a bit here on why exotics are so high up the list and why they're likely to remain there, so bear with me.

Splitting exotics from their exotic abilities
There is ABSOLUTELY no difference between exotic pets and regular pets, save the secondary ability and a bunch of different looks, since their non-exotic abilities are standard. Blizzard most likely wants to keep the ability to tame exotics linked with the exotic ability of the pets because they wouldn't be exotic otherwise. This is actually a fair reasoning, since earning the right to tame exotics wouldn't mean quite as much were that the case. So even though on paper, I like the idea of splitting exotic pets from their exotic ability, just to allow for them to be tamed at a lower level, I can understand why Blizzard hasn't already done that.

Lowering the level exotics can be tamed at
So say we don't split the exotics from their exotic abilities and look to drop the level they can be tamed at. As previously mentioned, shammies (in general) are already pretty ticked that bloodlust/heroism has been given to two other classes. If our puppy lust ability drops to something reasonable, say level 60 or so, then it's likely that the shaman one would need to drop as well. This would wreck havoc on the shaman abilities and the order players receive them, since undoubtedly, something would have to move to replace hero/blust at level 70.

In other words, even a small level change would impact more than just us, just due to one exotic ability alone. This isn't even considering the other potentially overpowered abilities, even on the ones that could theoretically scale with level/gear (I'm looking at chimeras and worms here).

So it seems that this may all be part of Blizzard's reasoning for making us wait for exotics. We gain more flexibility in the later stages of the game, giving it up for a few more levels in earlier stages.

One could still scale it, not to mention I've asked a few shammies already and they honestly don't mind. Shammies don't get Heroism immediately anyways so they wouldn't have anything to compare it with. If just one of the pet abilities causes problems with one of the classes Blizzard could make it so that Core Hounds don't get the ability until level 69.

I'll restate again....if they dont get their ability, then you might as well tame a normal pet cause thats what an exotic would be without that secondary ability. Thats what makes them exotic.

I agree with Kalli. This is really a never-gonna-happen scenario and really no sense in going around in circles. the constant going in circles is giving me a headache. I think I've stated my point here enough. *rolls out*

[Cerah]

Shin: While a neat suggestion that I would be more in favor of, there's still a big problem with it. People want exotics for their buffs. If they dont give the buff, it's like having a normal pet. You might as well get a normal pet at that rate.

I don't know about you, but when I first tamed my Devilsaur, I just wanted a giant pet T-Rex, and didn't give a crap about its abilities.

Exotic pets are cool. Extra exotic abilities are nice and all, but we didn't have them before, and people still went out of their way to tame an exotic pet. It is the defining feature of Beast Mastery, IMO, and since the other classes and specs get one of their defining features as their lvl 10 Spec ability, why not?

Intimidation was just a step towards Beastial Wrath, and I'll continue to believe that until I hear someone else cry out in defense of their beloved Intimidation.

/hears crickets chirping

[Wark]

Splitting exotics from their exotic abilities
There is ABSOLUTELY no difference between exotic pets and regular pets, save the secondary ability and a bunch of different looks, since their non-exotic abilities are standard. Blizzard most likely wants to keep the ability to tame exotics linked with the exotic ability of the pets because they wouldn't be exotic otherwise. This is actually a fair reasoning, since earning the right to tame exotics wouldn't mean quite as much were that the case. So even though on paper, I like the idea of splitting exotic pets from their exotic ability, just to allow for them to be tamed at a lower level, I can understand why Blizzard hasn't already done that.

Is the exclusivity of the pet families a draw for anyone, though? For me, it's just an irritant-- I love scorpids, and I love worms, but if my spec's wrong I only get to play with one. And this scarcity doesn't make my quality time with my worm any better, it just makes me go "gee, I wish I could just use the pet I want whenever I want."

I could see an argument made for keeping spirit beasts exclusive-- between the winning "mystical ghost thing" + "overloved charismatic megafauna" combo and the Pokemon aspect of the family, people seem madly obsessed with what I like to refer to as "those @#$% moonfire cats"-- but for the rest of them... do people like having a Devilsaur because it says "I am a Beast Master, neener neener" or because it means they have a pet t-rex? I'd assume it's the latter, which would put no value in preserving a scarcity.

I'll restate again....if they dont get their ability, then you might as well tame a normal pet cause thats what an exotic would be without that secondary ability.

Why would putting Exotics and non-Exotic families on the same footing be bad? I like my pets being more awesome, I assure you. But I don't see why, when I spec to be a Beast Master, I should be given an incentive to ditch all my old pets in the stables and let them gather dust until I swap to a new spec.

Beast Mastery is all about the pets, right? So why does my keystone talent impose a penalty on me for wanting to be loyal to my old pets? Unless you approach this with an "out with the old, in with the new" assumption, it's frankly a pretty ludicrous idea.

That, and I don't see any solid argument* against giving ALL the families a special deep-BM-only second ability, the way all the Exotic families get now. Would you need to rebalance everything? Yup. Would it require a little creativity and more time to implement? Yup. Do I expect them to drop everything and do this right now? Nope. Do I think that's an excuse for them to leave the current Exotic system in place indefinitely? Nope.



*You could pull the "but they only have so much time/money/manpower to go around!" argument, but they have to put all their time, money, and manpower into something-- no reason it couldn't be this.

[Nanotrev]

I'll restate again....if they dont get their ability, then you might as well tame a normal pet cause thats what an exotic would be without that secondary ability. Thats what makes them exotic.

I agree with Kalli. This is really a never-gonna-happen scenario and really no sense in going around in circles. the constant going in circles is giving me a headache. I think I've stated my point here enough. *rolls out*

It would still be up to Blizzard to make that final choice for us, and there's no harm in us discussing this as we'd like. You can never really say Blizzard is or isn't going to do anything because they've done things that have surprised us all many times.

Most of the running in circles comes from the counter-debates countering those trying to invalidate the fixes that could be done to prevent early-level exotics from being overpowered or make people feel left out. I don't think a low-level Core Hound with the equivalent to Lifebloom would make much of a difference but that's just me. I think if Blizzard did go through with this that would be the most likely thing to happen. If they don't? Well, it was a nice thought to entertain the mind.

[Kalliope]

I don't know about you, but when I first tamed my Devilsaur, I just wanted a giant pet T-Rex, and didn't give a crap about its abilities.

Exotic pets are cool. Extra exotic abilities are nice and all, but we didn't have them before, and people still went out of their way to tame an exotic pet. It is the defining feature of Beast Mastery, IMO, and since the other classes and specs get one of their defining features as their lvl 10 Spec ability, why not?

Intimidation was just a step towards Beastial Wrath, and I'll continue to believe that until I hear someone else cry out in defense of their beloved Intimidation.

/hears crickets chirping

BM pet abilities also used to provide vastly different functionality than normal pet family abilities. Some players did go after them for their abilities, not just their appearance.

The latter, by the way, is basically window dressing, even though some exotic pets look Really Cool. There are non-exotic pets that also look Really Cool. This is why I kinda discounted pet appearance from the list of things that make exotics appealing in my other post - plus, it's in the eye of the beholder anyway. (Though don't get me wrong, my taming of Theseus had nothing to do with devilsaurs being the best BM pet in LK and everything to do with having a big green dino stomping around with me.)

In case there was any confusion, I'm not against exotics becoming tamable at a lower level. I'm merely playing devil's advocate and trying to approach the situation as Blizzard might in order to refine our collective thought process.