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So tonight I decided to work on my mage alt by running her through a few randoms. The group was pretty nice, but the tank and one of the DPS were not exactly doing their roles in the group very well at all (the tank and a druid dps). The whole time it was a game of aggro-tag with mobs bouncing from one person to another. I'm a very tolerant person but the tanks lack of skill was really starting to get to me. What stopped me from saying something was that one of them was new to the game entirely and the other (while already 80 on another toon) was just too nice and friendly overall that I couldn't find it in me to grouch about the aggro chaos. I handed out a few helpful tips but not a word was said in anger or with the intent to hurt feelings. They thanked me for my two cents and the group went along as smooth as silk from that point on. :]

...However, I've known people in the past that would rather skip the friendly advice and jump right into the "u sux, l2p tards" action.



Have any of you found yourself in similar situations while doing pugs (or guild runs with new members)?
How did you react?

I just had something like this happen to me on my brand new baby hunter! She'd just hit level 23 or so, and I decided to do a couple randoms. Yay, Shadowfang Keep! I LOVE this place! We get in and someone immediately drops group. No reason why, probably just had to leave. Doesn't bother me any, but the group leader (also our healer, a shadowpriest) tries queueing us for a fifth. We all pick our roles, except the tank, who declines to choose a role. Queue...decline. This happens six or seven times.

Now I like to keep in mind that at level 20 or so, you're going to find a LOT of people that are new to the game. The priest was not so kind. He immediately started swearing at the poor tank to pick a role. The tank had NO IDEA what the queue popup even was and was closing it, thinking it was a bug. At this point, the raging healer is getting on my nerves. My main is a priest, I adore the class and people like that give priests a bad name!

Group gets a fifth, the tank is taking it easy, shy about pulling. She's clearly new to tanking and everyone in the group is being patient and understanding, except the priest. He starts screaming at her to pull more, pull faster, when she's clearly not ready for that. So HE pulls things. She's running around, clearly stressing about doing her job and the healer is DPSing! I'm using my pet to OT as much as I can to help, and we somehow make it out alive. In the courtyard, he does the same thing, pulling three groups of mobs, then screaming at the tank when he gets initial threat. He ragequits and our elemental shaman starts trying to heal. Again, we make it by the skin of our teeth.

After that, the remaining players start giving the tank advice on holding threat and encourage her to be bolder about pulling. She was apologizing so much when she really didn't need to and we worked pretty hard to boost her confidence after that jerk of a priest left. Everyone was super-nice and really patient with her as she figured everything out. By the end of the run, she's tanking like a pro and everyone had a blast!

I usually AM the newbie, rather than finding newbies XD In endgame content, anyway. I only recently (as in earlier this year) started seriously doing dungeons, and only on my hunter for that, so for a while I was very cautious and apologetic whenever anything messed up because I was pretty sure it was my fault.

Over time I'm starting to learn how to actually identify whose fault problems are. Sometimes it really is me, and sometimes it's the other dps or the healer or the tank. And sometimes it's still hard to tell...like the run I did the other day, when the tank kept charging in like crazy and we wiped twice; at first I thought he was just a dumb tank, until I realized at the end our pally healer wasn't even throwing Beacon up or anything. It just takes practice I guess.

I can say, however, I respond extremely well to patient help and extremely poorly to the rage response. I still remember a few months ago when Kalli, Fworb, Veph and I ran a BC dungeon randomly together as a 4man, and I did it on my mage...who I've never run any dungeons with before, ever. They were extremely patient with me, explained the rules of the fights, and gave me tips on how to play the class better. 'Cause of that I was actually able to improve and take advantage of a new part of my mage's abilities that I didn't even realize I had before.

On the off chance that I DO meet a nice-but-clueless person, I try to help in a friendly and calm manner, because I've been where they are and I know how much it sucks. Usually it's just little things on the map; where do I get this quest, do you know where this mob is, can you direct me to this trainer 'cause I'm lost, where do you get that pet? If it's in a dungeon, I can usually answer questions about the fights, and I usually give people the benefit of the doubt the first time (hey guys, just remember that you can't stand in the purple goo, okay? ).

If they're nice they're usually willing to take advice, which is a good thing at least

~VelkynKarma

*guilty of being an newbie....i must say i can nerd-rage alot like today the hilt dropped in FoS! yes! i didn't mind someone else getting it..but an shaman...a fcking shaman who can't wield swords...*guilty of nerd-raging..* i know i response poorly to such things

bluddy wrote:*guilty of being an newbie....i must say i can nerd-rage alot like today the hilt dropped in FoS! yes! i didn't mind someone else getting it..but an shaman...a fcking shaman who can't wield swords...*guilty of nerd-raging..* i know i response poorly to such things

1) It's a BoE, the shammy could very well choose to use it for an alt, give it to a friend, or sell it. Such is the way of BoEs.
2) There are rewards for it that suit every class. 2h tanking maces for druids, 1h caster maces for shammies, priests, pallies, and so on.

Edit: Here you go: http://www.wowhead.com/item=50379
As you can see, the rewards are: 1h caster sword, 2h physical dps sword (agility), 1h physical dps sword (agility), 2h physical dps sword (strength), 1h physical dps mace (agility), 1h caster mace, 2h physical dps (and feral tanking) mace (agility).

Do your research before you rage at people. I don't mean to pick on you in particular, but I see it so very, very often - someone rolls on an item, another person has a conniption fit and don't listen to reason. In this case: there is no class that can't benefit from the Battered Hilt (though there isn't a real tanking option with def rating, but given that most people have dual spec I don't consider that a valid reason for tanks to pass). You also have to remember that you all helped that loot drop. Everyone in the group is needed to get to and down the mob that drops the item in question.

As for the original question of this post, my guildies and I (all severe altoholics) often end up having really great runs when we encounter people who are new to 80/unsure of their role/new to their spec. Usually at least one of us has some experience with the class/spec and even if not we always take it easy, encourage, and try to have fun. It is always a pleasure to leave a group knowing the person feels less awkward about their role for their next run. I like to think we're memorable.

I've seen the hilt drop a few times and I have yet to win it. Don't really care now with Cata so close. lol xD However... There was a warlock in our guild that rolled need on it once even though he had his Quel'delar equivalent equipped on him at the time. His excuse? "I need the gold for my travelers mammoth." My room mate went in a rage because the lock won the roll when everyone in the rest of the group could clearly have used the upgrade. :/

Skyshot wrote:I've seen the hilt drop a few times and I have yet to win it. Don't really care now with Cata so close. lol xD However... There was a warlock in our guild that rolled need on it once even though he had his Quel'delar equivalent equipped on him at the time. His excuse? "I need the gold for my travelers mammoth." My room mate went in a rage because the lock won the roll when everyone in the rest of the group could clearly have used the upgrade. :/

Ouch. Yeah, that I wouldn't have been too happy about. I don't think I would be able to need on it anymore, now that I have it.

I personally get extremely upset when I see someone innocent get griped at in a group. More often than not, unfortunately, its a dpser decked out in full ICC gear giving average-geared tank grief about not being able to hold aggro against him. The most memorable story I have of this was in AN after Haddronax, a DK was giving the tank grief. After we had all jumped down the tunnel for the free fall, the DK turned on path of frost with the intention of killing us all at the end. For some reason it glitched, and the rest of landed safely in the water while he went *ker-splat*.

Usually if someone is performing badly, I will politely offer them some advice. On most occasions people will take it and thank me for the help, but on one particular occasion the following happened:
I was in a heroic HoR group and everyone was performing phenomenally, except for the disc priest. By some sheer miracle we barely made it past the first two bosses, and finally got to the Lich King event where we promptly fell flat on our faces. We started discussing what went wrong and what it all came down to was bad healing. The priest got very uppity and started saying things like "well you try healing through diseases that hit that hard!" to which I headdesked because the priest spell abolish disease is great for this fight. Very politely I offered up some advice which was shot down by the comment "I just healed ToC", and the priest immediately dropped group.

The random dungeon finder has been great for low population servers like mine, but its unfortunately running into these pinheads >.<

Ha. Just this past week we were running guild randoms and one dropped out, so we brought in a pug to keep going. This poor pally... I'm healing the team and I notice the new guy's not dpsing... he's actually healing too. I try to be nice and say they need to dps, because I'm queued in as the healer (and geared appropriately). He doesn't respond, but the rest of the team get upset and stomp him. He's like "I'm sorry, I just hit 80 like an hour ago." Totally understandable. He keeps healing. Soft nudge gets a bit harder. "Dude, I'm healing. I need you to DPS. Do you have any dps gear?" No response directly, but he puts on a mace and shield and starts dpsing in his healing spec... and he's rolling need on everything... At this point, I feel bad for him, two others in group have no sympathy and want to kick him out and our group lead is feeling too guilty to kick him. Apparently noone could kick him except the lead, since we kept getting an error and she wouldn't do it. We got through everything ok and there weren't any deaths except the new guy (7k health drops a mite fast).

Honestly, I'm not sure where the boundary should be drawn. I guess if the pug isn't keeping the group from progessing, its ok, but where do you think you should draw the line with noobness? Using the LFG tool for heroics right after hitting 80 is a lot like throwing a 16 year old girl out in morning highway commute traffic through the city by herself. Its not really the other drivers place to teach her how to drive, but if she causes a wreck, it won't be a good morning for anyone behind her. You can only use the "someone ought to set her straight" admonishment if you are willing to do so, but theres also the good chance she won't listen or take you seriously if you tried.

What do you guys think?

/edit - btw OP, Reno and Rude are awesome!!!! They did an awesome job on them in the movie.

Well, I personally would have asked him to leave and requeue for a role he was prepared to fill. I have no problem carrying someone that just hit 80 through a couple of heroics (lord knows a group of my guildies can easily do so!) but don't queue as tank if you're not geared for it. Don't queue as dps if you don't have a dps spec. Fill your role to the best of your ability.

Coincidentally (and I know part of this is the OCD in me) I have always been able to walk straight into heroics when hitting 80 and perform reasonably well. I've also always had dual specs for my healers so that I could begin my heroic gearing as such rather than taking strangers' lives (figuratively) in my hands.

A little bit of consideration and forethought goes a long way.

Can be both patient and a bitch when in pugs i hate unfairness and i do give advice if needed but some days i just cba and i usually end up saying something i regret those are the days i will keep to my self when i realise that it is just not a day where i can be civil and nice

if people say they are newly dinged or new entirely ill go a long way with patience and small tips if i can help

have meet Ass hats ftards and so on in my time but have also meet many nice players with time and patience to help and have meet those that ask advice and i will gladly give it i remeber being new my self still and that is some years now and a nice person asked me why i didn't dual wield yet and he helped me out with spec and gear i am forever grateful to that person it made the game really fun to play

So id say it depends on who you run in to i would not have patience enough for the pally described higer up who healed and needed on everything he would be one of those id lose my temper with since you did ask nicely and so on

Yeah i think in a random heroic dungeon, someone who doesnt know how to tank or doesnt know how to heal should not queue up for those. if you're learning one or the other, queue up for regular 80 runs, or better yet group up with your friends.

tank and heal are the 2 main parts to a successful group in heroics, if a tank cant hold aggro or a healer cant heal, then the group wipes, simple as that.

People who want to tank but yet have no idea how to really, should run as dps for a while and start saving up tanking gear.

I just would be upset if i saw a tank wasnt doing anything correctly, wearing greens and spellpower items, with a Argent Dawn commission trinket.

Royi wrote: tank and heal are the 2 main parts to a successful group in heroics, if a tank cant hold aggro or a healer cant heal, then the group wipes, simple as that.

DPS have a bit more leeway because there's 3 of them (so more than likely a terrible DPS can be covered for by somebody that's overgeared), but getting stuck with 3 terrible DPS is pretty freakin' painful.

On topic: One of my favorite things about the looking for group system is how often it seems to find people who really WANT to do well at their respective roles, but just haven't been able to practice it / don't have anyplace on their server to get information from. I nearly always level with at least one of my RL friends and at least one of us queues as a tank or healer, so it's very unlikely that a group will completely fail even if every non-us person is of the "I'm not going to bother wasting money on training new spells for a while ... like, 30 levels or so ..." variety.

Always ending a dungeon with somebody in the group saying "thank you for helping me!" leaves me with the warm n' fuzzies. XD

Also ... sending a couple of "you should run away and not get into combat now" tells to the nice folks while the "ZOMGPULLNOW!!!" guy gets to solo the disaster he's gotten himself into usually gets the message across rather nicely, in my experience. ;p