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Urg. After finally getting back into the game one single person has just caused me to crash and burn.

Let me start from the begining. I have a plethora of toons, but up until recently only my hunter has made it to 80. That is up until this week when I finally managed to get my Shaman leveled. I had started doing random heroics to get up his resto set and have been having a grand old time doing something other than DPS. I'd let people know that I was ungeared as we started and people have been happy to give me a shot. I'm proud to say that although I am still in mostly blues, I have never had a full wipe yet. A few deaths sure, but that's nothing to worry about. I had been able to handle everything from Halls of Stone to a Culling of Stratholme timed run (got me a lovelly drake there too).

The problem starts when I get into a Reg Trial of the Champion run late in the night (it was to be my last instace before I went to bed). I figure this place to be really over what I can handle, but give it a shot anyway. there were a few more deaths than I'd had in other instances, but no real wipes and I thought I was doing okay. Just before the Black Knight fight, the tank asks if one of the others could heal because I was a "passionite loving" noob.
This coming from the tank who spend most of the champions fight inside of the poison AoE, it took most of my mana to keep him up. Still, I respectfully offered to drop for him and he expressed his desire for me to be out of there asap in much less polite terms.

I know he was an idiot (and other more unsavory words) and I know that I was undergeared for TotC... But damn it those words just cut me deep. Whenever I think about my poor shammy I keep replaying that moment and it just destroys any desire I may have had of playing.

/sigh. Anyone else has this sort of burnout before? Any tips on dealing with it?

Ugh, people like this piss me off to no end.

I highly recommend taking a read through a similar topic, as we all state our opinions of such low-lifes:
http://forums.wow-petopia.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=521

Try making a new alt for fun, or just goof around on a different character for a while. You'll come to realize that he was just an ignorant biggot and can be safely ignored since no one can tell you how to play the game - it's yours to have fun with however you choose.

I had a similar experience in that same instance, but with tanking. I had taken a loooong break from tanking, and decided to give it another shot, and ran a heroic there.

Just try to ignore them, they're inconsequential to the rest of your life, and especially, shouldn't get in the way of you having a good time playing. Take a few days to shake it off. Do you have any friends that are tanks? I always like having a friend heal me if I'm tanking- you'll feel a lot more confident.

Try not to let it bother you too much. A lot of tanks in randoms are just flat out jerks.

Some ppl love to annoy others and blame their flaws on them.

When I have a bad moment I swap chars for a bit, and do some stuff I know im good at.

I'm pretty good at dueling on my hunter, so Ill do a bit of that to cheer me up. I was a bit burned the other week, so I went hunting spirit beasts for a bit of entertainment, and managed to get the 3 I was missing in 24 hours! That reallly re-invigorated me, and I've been back on the wowcrack hard ever since

Ignore ignore ignore ignore ignoreignoreignore.

If he's not willing to alter his "leet" tanking style of standing in the AoE for a lesser geared healer, then it's a tanking issue, not a healing one.

*deletes a stream of profanity regarding morons in ToC on either difficulty*

The ICC instances are KNOWN to be harder, but ToC is still pretty bad as well, at least at lower gear levels.

These are the kinds if guys that belong on /ignore.
When someone is on your ignore, you won't have to bother with them anymore.

Too bad the ignore list is so short, there's too many of these idiots nowadays.

My personal burnout involved our guild (which, by the way, I'm back in now - yar, ifail) and its sinking ship syndrome. I was one of three hunters (the BM to the MM and Surv) who was the only one actually doing her damned job in ICC25. We were wiping hardcore on Saurfang, a fight we repeatedly smashed in ICC10, and it became clear WHY we were continuing to hardcore fail in 25-man after I stopped doing my job of dropping traps to slow the blood beasts.

Neither the MM or the Survival Hunters were doing anything, except trying to beat the Feral Druid (my hubby) and our Blood-specced DK (former GL of TDK) on the DPS meter. This continued for about two months before my patience finally ran out. I was in an ICC10, an idiot check it was, we had our worst bloody players in guild in there. These were the folks you would reach down an internet line and garrotte with a mouse cord if you could. We get up to Saurfang...and wipe...continuously...because we had a fail pally tank who was an altaholic (jysk, he can't play any toon he touches, period!), a mage who kited the blood beasts through the healing team and wondered WHY they died and not the beasts (/facepalm), a fail warlock who kept dying to Mark of the Champion and killing the rest of us because he did not understand that he couldn't dps at all with the bubble on, a DK who cried everytime someone beat him on the DPS meter, and somehow, despite all of this, I'M the idiot getting the blame for not putting traps down and killing the beasts.

When you start accusing me of being a "fail huntard who doesn't drop traps", I draw the effing line at that accusation. I've been playing Laz an effing LONG TIME. I learned how to kite the hard way (Molten Core FTW), not this pansy-assed Naxxramas 25-man with those blasted zombies and the big puppy with a pair of clothies who die continuously because they don't move whilst kiting them.

I tell the bloody tank (the fail pally) that I AM dropping traps and just because HE cannot see them doesn't mean they're not there. Bit of a scuffle breaks out on Vent because apparently, this dumbass has to SEE THE TRAPS so he KNOWS they're actually THERE. He's the idiot tanking Saurfang. And my comment on Vent is "And somehow, this is a question as to how we're failing...?"

Second incident involved the DK and myself. He was the reason I went to level Kas and told the Alliance and my guild to kiss my arse til Cata.
Now, the DK's an asshole. He was in the guild fairly undergeared, we geared him up like the morons we are, and he was totally an ungrateful little shit because of it. He claimed to be 25. Turns out, his brother was in one of our server's better guilds and confirmed he was actually 15. We let the lie slide for a bit. Until that ICC10 whereupon he decided that since the tank was using me as his excuse for his failtanking, he would too.

Now, my tolerance of these fail players hits the edge. We wipe a further four times. Heroism doesn't go up the last time because our lovely Shammy gal is dead before she can hit the button (DK's fault, he ran the beast straight into her), and the whole raid starts dying. Excuse the fact I don't feel like paying another 52g for repairs, arrows and food/mana drinks so I make for the ship. And the DK has a problem with that.

He starts spamming in whispers to me, and in raidchat, over and over again for about 42 seconds: "Die you stupid f------ bitch!!!" over and over again.

I snapped and I let him have it in raidchat AND in Vent. I listed the reasons why we were failing so fucking hard - with the exception of our OT and our healer - this group was a bunch of epicfail, a goddamned joke made by the guild leaders to see who's the most fail of the place. And as I said to the DK to make the whole situation effing personal, I told him I knew he LIED on his app, that he was fifteen and took the toon off his brother's account because he was too damned lazy to level one himself. ...I pretty much let him have it, left raid and went to pug Hyjal with friends (and blow off steam because I was physically this close to going out and shooting something). Raid disbanded (pretty much the GL and RL were in Vent listening to the whole torrid affair unfold...and got a damned earful out of me for being too spineless to tell the group exactly how much fail they were made of) and the DK was thrown out of the guild shortly afterwards for trying to call me an Ess Ell You Tee in front of my hubby (who had witnessed the whole raidfail over my shoulder the whole time and knew who was doing it!). Pretty much screenshots exist of the raidchat can o' PWN I gave the DK. Our Shammy and her hubby still have them XD

But that incident introduced me to the wonderous joys of levelling an alt - not having to give a damn about raiding, raid mats, gearscore - I got to experience the full content of WLK on Kastarakov instead of having to power-level Lazona to 80 to start the high-end content. So much so I barely raid on Laz because the guild is still at that stage of failure that I want absolutely no part of anymore til Cata.


I spent so much time on Laz that I realised having only one toon to raid with is alright, but having no alternative to escape to is not a good thing.
Go level an alt, or better still, take time out completely from the game, like I did on the side of levelling Kas - I draw and write as a side-hobby so it's helped immensely in trying to get back into things.

And Heroic Tanks are rarely nice people. Rare is the find of a tank who isn't hellbent on gearscore or being kept up by so many heals the healer goes OOM as an attribute to his epicawesome. I've seen too many jerkwads through the cross-server dungeons XP

I've had similar things happen either directed at me or others in the group and though its fairly rare. Its just like things in real life, an idiot can really ruin your day, but only if you let them. Brush it off and keep going you have to trust your own judgment. And as a fellow healer you can turn these things into fun...simply heal everyone,but the person being an idiot. And everyone started somewhere, everything in wow is meant to be fun, its just a game. I'm sure you did fine just ignore idiots like him

I have yet to be really told off by anyone, probably because I don't trust my skill enough to actually heal or tank. I just DPS, and I don't raid.
However, I witnessed a DPS - bless his bloody moron soul - that had a skull as thick as the earth and had somehow filled it with cold, moldy tapioca.
We where in ToC regular as well. The healer hadn't done the dungeon before, so we let her off the hook for any deaths. The tank was great. I was part of the DPS along with a mage and a rogue, who was the main offender.
Starts like this - first off, in the Faction Champion fight, the rogue gets Polymorphed.
"HEY TANK, KEEP AGGRO ON MAGE!"
We quietly explain that the mage randomly targets to Polymorph, that the tank had aggro on the mage the whole time, and that this rogue shouldn't be fighting the boss with the Square symbol. We explain that Skull = kill first in this group. We keep fighting, and the rogue continues to fight the mage, who still has no Skull over his head. He happens to be standing in the AoE poison nearly the entire time.
But whatever, right? We survived, so we made our way to the Black Knight. First stage was easy as pie. Second stage, the same.
Then the third stage comes around.
I don't blame our poor, surprised healer for what happened next. She didn't know about the truckload of AoE damage that occurs at the third stage, so she couldn't save Mr. Mage, Mr. Rogue, herself, and eventually me. The tank neatly disposed of our ghostly Black Knight friend and waited for us all to get back.
Mr. Rogue doesn't leave his corpse.
"OMG TANK KEEP F***ING AGGRO!"
I quickly told him, "It's not our tanks fault. He AoE's like a truck."
"THEN Y ARE WE ALL DED"
..."I told you. He. AoE's. Like. a truck. We can't expect the healer to heal us all, she didn't know about it. The tank, though, never once lost aggro."
"OMG EPIC FAIL TANK"
...
"EEEEEEPPPPPPIIIIIIICCCCC FFFFFFAAAAAAIIIIIILLLLL TTTTTAAAAANNNNNNKKK" (repeated over and over.)
...
...
I got out of that group as soon as possible.
Anyway! I would suggest, in your situation, making an alt, as many have already suggested. Alts are amazing for releasing stress. Or, as Bulletdance said, just stop healing those idiots. ^.^

I have run into people like this on all my toons. If I happen to be lucky enough to be on either my hunter, DK(tank), or Shaman(healer) then I have fuin with them

Hunter = misdirect to offender

DK = let agro slip

Shaman = no heals

After a couple times they either leave or get the idea.

Oooh! Oohoohooh! Pick me, pick me!

Kas, I can totally tell what's been going on with your guild's raids, just from your descriptions. >_<

Blood beasts don't do AoE, as far as I know, so if healers are dying, it's because ranged isn't swapping to them and getting aggro. That's not a dig at you; that's on the rest of the ranged. You're obviously switching, since you said you were.

If melee is getting hit by beasts, they're AoEing when they shouldn't be. Another possibility is that they're Chains of Icing or something to help with slows, etc. and ranged isn't getting enough aggro, but it sounds like your melee is terribly unhelpful.

If tanks are getting hit by beasts, they're also AoEing when the beasts come out. Because they're tanks, they can hold passive threat on them easier.

If ranged is getting hit, then either it's kiting failure or the beasts aren't dying fast enough. From the sound of things, it's the latter due to the lack of switches.

If this becomes an issue again, you can damned well tell them that traps aren't going to make or break that fight. It's a gear check and an execution check on EVERYONE, not just the poor hunter assigned to do traps. There are knockbacks, snares, and all sorts of other ways to slow the beasts down, but in the end, they simply have to die and die fast.

I will put money on it that that warlock was lifetapping, from your description of things. L O L. >_< Dunno what you mean about him not being able to dps; he should be able to do everything normally EXCEPT that.

Anyway, that dk sounds like a real piece of work. Too lazy to level a toon to 80 from 55? Go play something else that fits your attention span, kid. >_<

I wouldn't take that crap from my guild, tbqh. *hugs* That really really sucks and they're lucky to have you.

I COMPLETELY second the need to have an alt to actually enjoy Northrend on, btw. I missed so much on Kalli. :/

O_o at the rogue in the ToC group blaming the TANK; was sure the healer was going to get blamed, despite the agreement to not blame the healer. What a noob, lol. xD

*seethes about "healing issues" in general*

Ah, the main reason I dislike MMOs so much. The gameplay is great and fun but uggghhhhh must they be filled with the most mindless, immature morons and jerks? I've also had experience with such stuff. The one that always comes to mind was when I was hanging out in Stranglethorn with a buddy. Someones come and hands in Report to Doren. Doren runs off, yelling, blah, blah, blah... and I decide to one-shot him for the heck of it. The quester immediately starts screaming at me that he'll need to do the questline all over again, called me several unsavory words, and then began to tell me that she had a hunter lvl 47 who had better gear then mine.
Okay, the guy running away is eyecandy. He despawns at the end of the road.
For some reason, this always sticks in my WoW memories. Unfortunately, I don't take criticisms, idiotic or not, very well. It still upsets me to this day. This is probably extremely unnecessary, but I get a bit ashamed when it comes to how I play, as I am very casual my gear is quite terrible, and I am not by a long shot an amazing player. As such I rarely like grouping with others for the fear that I will be mocked over something. It's a stupid fear, I realize this, but it still bothers me. I need to man up, big time.

Wait what.

Let me get this straight, the idiot stands in poison, and blames you?

I'm sorry but what? :|

I just pugged ToC Heroic. HEROIC.

After going OMG at Aria when we got in there cause TOC AURG BLACK KNIGHT AURG OMG PALETRESS WHAT IF I GET HEEEER.

Then flounder about and all that but even I knew to get out of the dwarfs poison,and I even apologized when Aria and the healer died cause I got LoS'd by the damn glitch, couldn't do half my spells. Lagged from the damn spells going off, got sheeped...


but I knew it was my own fault/inexperience and no one got mad. But it probably helped I apologized.

But damn. ToC is one of those instances that can still catch you by surprise and kicks your ass, Heroic or Normal. And if you were able to pug it via LFG then obv you are geared enough to enter it. I mean I thought Caim wasn't but he was- barely. Due to the lag really.


Tho my advise wouldn't be to roll another toon, but to take a break. When it just gets to be a bit to much, take a break and read a book or watch some tv or spend some time with some real life buddies.

Cause otherwise you'll end up like me, like 25 alts on 4 realms >.>

Kalliope wrote:Oooh! Oohoohooh! Pick me, pick me!

Kas, I can totally tell what's been going on with your guild's raids, just from your descriptions. >_<

Blood beasts don't do AoE, as far as I know, so if healers are dying, it's because ranged isn't swapping to them and getting aggro. That's not a dig at you; that's on the rest of the ranged. You're obviously switching, since you said you were.

If melee is getting hit by beasts, they're AoEing when they shouldn't be. Another possibility is that they're Chains of Icing or something to help with slows, etc. and ranged isn't getting enough aggro, but it sounds like your melee is terribly unhelpful.

If tanks are getting hit by beasts, they're also AoEing when the beasts come out. Because they're tanks, they can hold passive threat on them easier.

If ranged is getting hit, then either it's kiting failure or the beasts aren't dying fast enough. From the sound of things, it's the latter due to the lack of switches.

If this becomes an issue again, you can damned well tell them that traps aren't going to make or break that fight. It's a gear check and an execution check on EVERYONE, not just the poor hunter assigned to do traps. There are knockbacks, snares, and all sorts of other ways to slow the beasts down, but in the end, they simply have to die and die fast.

I will put money on it that that warlock was lifetapping, from your description of things. L O L. >_< Dunno what you mean about him not being able to dps; he should be able to do everything normally EXCEPT that.

Anyway, that dk sounds like a real piece of work. Too lazy to level a toon to 80 from 55? Go play something else that fits your attention span, kid. >_<

I wouldn't take that crap from my guild, tbqh. *hugs* That really really sucks and they're lucky to have you.

I COMPLETELY second the need to have an alt to actually enjoy Northrend on, btw. I missed so much on Kalli. :/

O_o at the rogue in the ToC group blaming the TANK; was sure the healer was going to get blamed, despite the agreement to not blame the healer. What a noob, lol. xD

*seethes about "healing issues" in general*

Our guild's melee is about 98% moronism, 1% intelligence. The other 1% often turns up to the raid drunk/high on something.
Our guild's ranged dps contains about 99% idiocy, 1% smarts. I'm in the 1% with an actual brain in my head that I use every second of the day.
But with that said, it's amazing we've actually downed Saurfang 25man given the circumstancial evidence that always points in the opposing direction. Ergo, I have zero clue how my guild manages to down ICC25 bosses with the amount of stupidity we bring along >_>;

Our guild's warlock has the attention span of a gnat. You will explain the fight to him REPEATEDLY, before, during and afterwards (wipe or clear), but still he won't understand plain English. It's like playing the miracle worker every single raid and sounding out vowels and shite. I think it took all of three raids when he first joined us for me to have him on permanent ignore (twice I had to talk as if he was a three year old and the last time I had to actually type in Japanese for him to get what I was yelling at him for - I thought never effing again...).

I went into ICC25 man this arvo to see if things had actually changed and if the guild had actually improved in my absence. The whole Saurfang fight still leaves a bitter taste in my mouth - whilst we kicked out some of our more-stupid melee/ranged dps and recruited some new folks, the same issue seems to happen whenever there's more than one hunter/warlock/mage in the raid. The MM hunter whose life hinges on dps got my boot six feet up his rectal canal for reverting to his "HOMGDPSMETER" bullshit on our first attempt (a wipe), as did one of the mages (for not waiting for Misdirection and thusly pulling Saurfang straight to him). I said over Vent, as nicely as I possibly could muster as we were buffing up, the next failtard who didn't do the job they know they're supposed to be doing would be tanking Saurfang on the next attempt, clothie or not. And I would continue throwing MD up on whoever had highest aggro afterwards.

We downed him with perfect execution and precision. No one's health dipped below 75%, perfect timing on bubbles, all blood beasts went down at the same time.


And after all of that...that bastard STILL didn't drop my tier piece *flails staff at dead Saurfang*

Kastarakovski wrote:But with that said, it's amazing we've actually downed Saurfang 25man given the circumstancial evidence that always points in the opposing direction. Ergo, I have zero clue how my guild manages to down ICC25 bosses with the amount of stupidity we bring along >_>;

^
This.

It's because most fights in 25m are actually EASIER than the 10m versions, simply because you have more people available to do whatever it is that needs doing.

Still, with your guild....yeah. -_- I think you're a large contributor to the successes.

Kastarakovski wrote:I said over Vent, as nicely as I possibly could muster as we were buffing up, the next failtard who didn't do the job they know they're supposed to be doing would be tanking Saurfang on the next attempt, clothie or not. And I would continue throwing MD up on whoever had highest aggro afterwards.

Heh, either your tanks are failing hard on threat generation or dps that outgears the tanks is opening WAY too early if this is happening regularly. Since you got him, I'll assume the latter, but man....any tank that's really worth their salt (ignoring massive gear differences) shouldn't need MD to get aggro.

I'm relieved and pleased on your behalf that you guys did down him, but man, I don't know how you have the patience. It sounds like a bloody nightmare and reminds me terribly of early Ulduar. >_<

Thanks for the advice guys, I feel a little better over the whole thing now. What Irks me most about it is that I didn't really confront the tank on how full of fail he was, I just left. I really feel I should have let him have it.

Anyhoo, I think I might take your guys advice and play casual with an alt for a while. I hear there's this nice horde guild over on Nessingwary.

On the raiding part that this topic has turned to, well, I can sympathise. I run with a great little guild of casual raiders. We're not top tier and we're only doing 10 man content at the moment due to lack of numbers for the 25 man stuff. We have some of the nicest people on the server in the guild, and some pretty skilled players. But for some reason we've just been slamming our head against Marrowgar of all bosses, urg. Our best attempt has been getting him down to 50%. I think it's a matter of us learning the fight and getting better gear.. But that doesn't stop me from wanting to thump my head against the desk when we wipe against him for the 8th time in the night.

I've had my fair share of being called "noob" for pulling weak dps (right after hitting 80), not healing well enough (just started learning how to heal on a druid) and not tanking well enough on my old war (vanilla - was in blues). This too shall pass, but going through it ain't easy.

Being a healer means you're going to get pounded alot anyhow, so growing thicker skin sure helps. I've been in your exact circumstance healing TOC with my druid and got past it only to become the best healer in my guild. Don't worry about what some leet idiot thinks of your skills while you are learning. Deal with it and move on. You can't run away from everything that offends you.

Get back on the damned horse and ride. You'll thank yourself for doing so.

Insulting bad players back isn't necessarily going to make you feel any better. If there's anyone who actually knows how to play in a group, they'll know why you left and may have bailed after you did. And either way, YOU know why you left and you have the high ground.

As for Marrowgar, what seems to be happening that's causing the wipes? Is it a tank dying? A dps in spikes? Does everyone seem to go down at once? What's the raid's gear like, on average? Just trying to figure out if it's gear, execution, or some combination thereof.

Kalli, the frustration is always having one player who doesn't pull his weight who remains in the raid even though he's not doing anything to assist. Our RL and GL are pretty spineless and I've known them both for humanama years, let me just address that right now. I wish the hubby could have recorded this following moment that transpired ingame and on Vent for Youtube posterity but hell, moment missed DX!!

Failmage's name is...well, let's call him Jin. Now, he started power-levelling a hunter since I had the sense to leave the guild for a while, leaving the team without a hunter doing her actual job in the raids. The problem is, just like his mage, he didn't exactly read up on how to play a hunter. He figured it's just point and shoot and send pet in. Pretty much the same thing he thought about his mage, but his level of fail on that toon doesn't count towards this fail *cough*

In ICC10, for the first time, they let Jin bring his hunter. Hunter is geared...and I'll leave it at that for a moment. And nobody, as per usual in this guild o' mine, checked this fact out until I did.

I was watching over hubby's shoulder (giving him his favourite head-scritchies that he enjoys when he's raiding XP), and noticed that on his running meter in the corner, Jin's hunter was bottom of the list. Now I think "He's FD'd, bottom of the list on threat, that's normal..." - until I realise about an instant later that it's a DPS meter and he's not even in the top 5. He's got nearly the exact same gear as Laz does, he's MM specced, and he's ranked 10th on the DPS meter. WTF? Head-scritchies stop (much to hubby's chargrin LOL) I go back to my comp behind him and armory Jin's hunter.

Next thing the husband hears is my head hitting my desk. And after they wipe on Marrowgar, I get on hubby's mic (since mine sucks!) and I point out that if a MM-specced hunter is doing next to nil DPS, there's something TOTALLY wrong with the picture! I then address Jin, nicely as possible, to get the hell out of the raid.

And then I say "Mister Expertise-Capped".

An involuntary silence follows this. I hear clicking in the background of our GL's (OT) vent. There is a huge "WTF!?" from him a moment later. Then the druid gets on, blasting his music on at least Volume 15, and our GL snaps. He throws the druid facefirst out of the raid and Vent, saying he'll pug a healer from one of the bigger guilds who isn't a damned moron who doesn't effing LISTEN when people say "turn the music DOWN, stupid!" And then, his attentions turn to Jin, who is arguing with me at this point that he knows Hunters need expertise capped in order to do the most damage in MM-spec (and there I am on Vent calling him an effing MORON)...

I have only ever heard Kavii snap once, and that was YEARS AGO in BWL (second boss). This rivalled that time. Probably even lay the smackdown on it if I was to be calling it that.

Jin gets a dressing down. Of his life. In the guild and in his prior guild that Kavii also was part of for a brief spell.
Kavii lets him have it, about both his toons, his failmage main and this huntard he brings to a 10man that is all about learning the fights, getting progression and possibly eventually laying the smackdown on Arthas. It is GLORIOUS VERBAL CARNAGE from a rarely-heard-this-pissed-off GL. Rest of vent is utterly SILENT, but there are others in guild joining the ventroom as it goes on.

Three things transpired that I took note of:

1) The Guild Leader finally coming straight out and saying it that he is one step away from /gdisband - we have dragged our guild out for three years now and we used to be in the top 10 guilds on Aman'Thul. We moved to Saurfang...and we took a nosedive we have never recovered from. We have recruited so many players, geared them out the wazoo only to have them bail on us the moment they get the weapons/trinkets they want or faction transfer. And Kavii has come to the edge of the abyss where he no longer wants to deal with failtards like that, especially when he addressed said failtards as "People like YOU, Jin, who don't pull your weight on anything you ever do! Begging mages to put down tables is not what this guild is about! If you're not going to a raid to work as part of a team bent on progression, who want to better themselves and actually not be a complete and utter fuckwit before, during and after raids, GTFO and STAY OUT!" - but honestly? I should have cheered on Vent when he said that (Opportunity missed, damnit DX)

2) He addressed my speech on the forums, addressing the issues I felt have gone on for far enough, and why hubby and I chose to leave guild for a while. Kavii said I had every right to say what I had to to him, and that after this raid, he finally got the message of what I was trying to say about booting out useless players. He also said EVERY TOON that applies will be armoried first and given a month's trial period. We had it once and it worked beautifully until after we transferred to Saurfang. Then we stopped using it and wondered what the deal was with all this epicfail going on...

3) As of tomorrow morning (today now), Kavii and Mark, the RL, will be going down the list of guildies and kicking out the useless ones. The hedge-trimmers, as he put it, are being sharpened as he speaks X3

Kavii logs out after his lengthy tirade (again, I do not blame him), and after telling Jin he has 24 hours to learn how to play a hunter or he's out on his ear with every guild on server being told of how much fail he's truly worth.

I logged on this morning to see the guild looking remarkably thin in the skin. Ergo, our most useless players are missing.
Including Jin's hunter. His mage on the other hand is still there, but is ranked as being on "Last Legs" in the guild ranks. I'm expecting to see him thrown out possibly by tonight or tomorrow if things do not improve with him.

Whilst it doesn't make me want to log in and raid, it's so nice to see it finally come to this and FINALLY get some resolution =D
It's been way too long for all of this!

OMG! EXPERTISE!? IN ICC????? Ughhhhhhhhhh, this is the DOWNSIDE of gearing up being made so easy.

I'm glad your GL finally got off his ass and started taking care of the problem. It really sounds like you're more fit to lead the raids than he is, in all honesty. If he was PAYING ATTENTION, he would notice a dps of ANY class that's below the tanks! I won't go into how it's a raid leader's responsibility to check his raiders' gear before taking them, since I don't know just how casual your guild is.

However, I come from a casual raiding guild and I can say this much with certainty: Being casual does not give ANYONE a free pass to be completely and utterly clueless. It's not that hard for a casual player to do a minimal amount of research. Basic concepts like "expertise is a melee stat" doesn't involve deep knowledge of the game.

I'll quit ranting. I'm extremely happy that your guild is starting to get its shit together. Spineless or not, if your GL/RL are going to listen to you when you know what you're talking about, it's a positive sign.