WoW Petopia Community

Original title: GUIDE: Hunters (3.3.2/3)
Second Title: Chriz's (somewhat) Hunter Guide
Preferred Title: Why I stopped playing hunters. (j/k)
Edit: Don't you love my disappearing colons?

Oh gods this thing is huge. I know giggle made a bm guide, but I'm putting all three specs + pets into one guide. There's a few things I might be out of date on, as my hunter is no longer my main.
To say anyone should solely do X spec is just arrogance. Even though at high gear levels marks provides the best stand still damage, hunters actually get more benefit being bm in many ICC boss fights with the heavy movement.
As well, some people just play different specs better. Not to mention marks is sensitive to your lag and latency while bm is less so.
Survival is actually better then marksmen until you either have a lot of ArP or your gear level is about ToC 10 range. There's not a clear line there.

Common Spec Abbreviations
Marks = Marksman
Surv= Survival
BM= Beast Master

Calculating Your Optimal:
There are two very accurate ways to figure out how much damage you should be doing. RAWR is not one of them, RAWR is actually considered one of the worst things you can use for your hunter.
1. Female Dwarf Easy to use web based application.
2. Shandara's Spreadsheet Requires Excel.

PVE Builds & Glyphs:
Beast Mastery: 3.3.2
Pre-Uld hunters will go for 2/2 Go For The Throat, while the better geared hunters will benefit more from their own dps over their pets.
You shouldn't have to go into improved revive pet unless you expect your pet to be dying a lot. Also why I actually value glyph of mending over other glyphs for bm.
Marksman: More Common Spec vs. Theory Spec vs. The Hunter's Mark Provider
Survival: 3.3.2

PVP Builds and Glyphs Placeholder

BM pet tanking spec placeholder

BM PVE Pets & Specs:
Devilsaurs: Spec
Wolves: Spec
Worms: Spec
Chimeraes: Spec

Marks/Surv PVE Pets & Specs:
Wolves: Spec
Raptors: Spec
Wasps: Spec
Serpent: Spec

Gems:
No matter what spec, always get a Nightmare Tear. Since it counts for any color, stick it somewhere where it can fill a socket bonus.

BM Gems:
Meta: AP Invigorating Earthsiege Diamond or Agil+extra crit damage Relentless Earthsiege Diamond
When hit capped:
Red Sockets: AP Bright Cardinal Ruby
Blue Sockets: Nightmare Tear in best socket bonus
Yellow Sockets: AP+Crit Wicked Ametrine
When not hit capped:
Yellow Sockets: AP+Hit Pristine Ametrine

Marks Gems:
Meta: Agil+extra crit damage Relentless Earthsiege Diamond
When hit capped:
Red Sockets: Agility Delicate Cardinal Ruby or ArP Fractured Cardinal Ruby (risky)
Blue Sockets: Nightmare Tear in best socket bonus
Yellow Sockets: Agil+crit Deadly Ametrine
When not hit capped:
Yellow Sockets: Agil+hit Glinting Ametrine

Surv Gems:
Meta: Agil+extra crit damage Relentless Earthsiege Diamond
When hit capped:
Red Sockets: Agility Delicate Cardinal Ruby
Blue Sockets: Nightmare Tear in best socket bonus
Yellow Sockets: agil+crit Deadly Ametrine
When not hit capped:
Yellow Sockets: agil+hit Glinting Ametrine

Enchants:
Head: Arcanum of Torment
Shoulders: Greater Inscription of the Axe or Master's Inscription of the Axe (inscription only)
Cloak: Major Agility or Swordguard Embroidery (tailoring only) or Flexweave Underlay (engineer only)
Chest: Powerful Stats
You can cheat with the cheaper +8 to stats.
Bracers: Greater Assault or Fur Lining - Attack Power (leatherworking only)
Socket Bracer (blacksmith only)
2H Weapon: Massacre
1H Weapon: Superior Potency or Exceptional Agility
Gloves: Major Agility or Crusher or Precision
Socket Gloves (blacksmith only)
Belt: Eternal Belt Buckle
Pants: Icescale Leg Armor cheaper version -> Nerubian Leg Reinforcements (leatherworker only)
Boots: Greater Assault or Icewalker
Rings: Assault (enchanter only)

Stat Caps:
This Nifty Guide

Gear Stats:
Hit is above all others when not capped. Intellect has a higher value when you have a higher tendency to go oom, but never trumps agility.
BM
Attack Power/RAP > Agility > Intellect > Critical Strike > Armor Penetration
Marks
Agility (ambiguous) Armor Penetration > Attack Power/RAP = Intellect (one to one) > Critical Strike
Surv
Agility > Attack Power/RAP = Intellect (one to one) > Critical Strike > Armor Penetration > Stamina

You should normally go for the two most benefiting stats.
Attack Power: Most beneficial stat in BM for this stat scales over to your your pet as well.
Agility: Agility is approx 1 AP and some crit, AP on gems and gear compared to agility is 2 to 1, while agility in Wrath has become favored for the crit.
Critical Strike: Increases chance to get a critical.
Armor Penetration: Reduces targets armor, hard caps at reducing the targets armor to 100%. Might be more trouble then it's worth since blizzard is taking it out and it only becomes really worth it when calculated perfectly.
Haste: Most hunter specs get all of the haste they could ever want. Really is only on your gear because it's a shamy stat.
Intellect: 1 to 1 RAP when talented, increases mana pool. Partly on there so that hunters and enhance shamys can share gear.
Stamina: Extra life and grants minimal (R)AP to survival hunters. Also scales your pet's stam up.

Attack Power Conversion:
I will never trust a tooltip again. Blast you blizzard's misleading tooltips.
Normal: (Character Level x 2) + Agility - 10 + AP gains from gear
Additional modifiers:
Careful Aim; Intellect into RAP
1 point // 2 points // 3 points
+ 1/3 time int // + 2/3 times int // +int
Hunter vs. Wild; stamina into AP and RAP
1 point // 2 points // 3 points
+ .1 times stam // + .2 times stam // +.3 times stam

Placeholders:
Rotation BM PVE
Rotation Surv PVE
Rotation Marks PVE

More to Come Later

You've covered some good basics, like Rawr being terrible for us and surv being a better spec for lesser geared hunters.

That said, I think you could flesh some things out and correct some outdated/incorrect information.

• You've linked a single build for each spec, but haven't said what they're for. I'm assuming PvE, but what kind of PvE? The marks spec looks nothing like the basic raiding spec, so I'm not sure what you're going for. Are these all-purpose soloing/5m instance specs?
• Ditto this for the pets and their builds. Also am unsure of why certain pets are listed and others aren't, but that's due to the somewhat murky nature of the goal of this post.
• Marks hunters don't gem for armor pen anymore. We stopped doing that in ToC with the nerf.
• There's also a +16 agility to boots enchant.

I'm not posting to discourage you by any means; I just think that you need to be specific about what you're covering. Once that question is answered, I have a few other suggestions for changes - I'm just hesitant to get into those until I'm sure about what you're trying to accomplish.

Kalliope wrote:You've covered some good basics, like Rawr being terrible for us and surv being a better spec for lesser geared hunters.

That said, I think you could flesh some things out and correct some outdated/incorrect information.

• You've linked a single build for each spec, but haven't said what they're for. I'm assuming PvE, but what kind of PvE? The marks spec looks nothing like the basic raiding spec, so I'm not sure what you're going for. Are these all-purpose soloing/5m instance specs?
• Ditto this for the pets and their builds. Also am unsure of why certain pets are listed and others aren't, but that's due to the somewhat murky nature of the goal of this post.
• Marks hunters don't gem for armor pen anymore. We stopped doing that in ToC with the nerf.
• There's also a +16 agility to boots enchant.

I'm not posting to discourage you by any means; I just think that you need to be specific about what you're covering. Once that question is answered, I have a few other suggestions for changes - I'm just hesitant to get into those until I'm sure about what you're trying to accomplish.

The nerf actually didn't stop all hunters from gemming armor pen. It's just that most trinkets and armor pull it to the absolute cap with procs. It's still worth to gem it to average cap on mobs.

Yeah, that marks spec might be unusual, but it's a spec for those who don't have mana issues. The aspect boost is incredible when you have a lot of AP.

I could have sworn I put all of the enchants in there. Now I notice I left the engineer haste enchant as well.

Chrizesu wrote:Yeah, that marks spec might be unusual, but it's a spec for those who don't have mana issues. The aspect boost is incredible when you have a lot of AP.

Hrm, with that in mind, you might want to put the more standard build up as well, since this one seems more advanced.

With THAT in mind, I'm considering swapping specs, but have some questions about some of the changes.

- Survival Instincts ups the crit chance of steady by 2%; this is a negligible loss, I'm guessing? With arcane out of the rotation, that part is a very small loss, so I'm ignoring it.
- Is the single point in efficiency to get to the next tier? Or is it to (mildly) make up for the loss of rapid recuperation?
- This is the one throwing me the most: why three points in thick hide? If they're throwaway points, why not improved revive pet (in case bad things happen) or endurance training? Is the armor contribution that amazing now? I saw you put a point in +armor in your pet specs as well as opposed to something like bloodthirsty, so maybe I missed something here...

This spec also seems to call for the hunter to be hit-capped on their own, right? No cheating with focused aim. I'm completely hit-capped on gear at the moment, which I have very mixed feelings about, since my ArP is low and it seems like that's the stat I'm missing due to the hit. Unfortunately, this is just how the pieces I have seem to be distributed. I can't even change much in terms of itemization until my 10m gets into hard modes. So! Does this mean I'm in a decent position to try this spec out? Or do I need to stick with what I have and focus on getting my ArP back up first? I really don't want to gem for it again; I ended up having to redo all of that in ToC and then when Cataclysm hits, ArP will be completely worthless. So I don't really know what to do. -_-

Sorry for kind of derailing the thread with all the personal questions. :/ I can always delete my posts if needed.

Kalliope wrote:

Chrizesu wrote:Yeah, that marks spec might be unusual, but it's a spec for those who don't have mana issues. The aspect boost is incredible when you have a lot of AP.

Hrm, with that in mind, you might want to put the more standard build up as well, since this one seems more advanced.

With THAT in mind, I'm considering swapping specs, but have some questions about some of the changes.

- Survival Instincts ups the crit chance of steady by 2%; this is a negligible loss, I'm guessing? With arcane out of the rotation, that part is a very small loss, so I'm ignoring it.
- Is the single point in efficiency to get to the next tier? Or is it to (mildly) make up for the loss of rapid recuperation?
- This is the one throwing me the most: why three points in thick hide? If they're throwaway points, why not improved revive pet (in case bad things happen) or endurance training? Is the armor contribution that amazing now? I saw you put a point in +armor in your pet specs as well as opposed to something like bloodthirsty, so maybe I missed something here...

This spec also seems to call for the hunter to be hit-capped on their own, right? No cheating with focused aim. I'm completely hit-capped on gear at the moment, which I have very mixed feelings about, since my ArP is low and it seems like that's the stat I'm missing due to the hit. Unfortunately, this is just how the pieces I have seem to be distributed. I can't even change much in terms of itemization until my 10m gets into hard modes. So! Does this mean I'm in a decent position to try this spec out? Or do I need to stick with what I have and focus on getting my ArP back up first? I really don't want to gem for it again; I ended up having to redo all of that in ToC and then when Cataclysm hits, ArP will be completely worthless. So I don't really know what to do. -_-

Sorry for kind of derailing the thread with all the personal questions. :/ I can always delete my posts if needed.

I do have a spec made off of the more common variations I see from many sites, I'll put that up as well.

I know some people would sue me for saying this, but the 2% crit loss does become near negligible when you've racked up a lot of crit from your other talents and gear. Especially basing your damage more on luck is really a BAD IDEA. Some people are so lucky bosses only have standard crit avoidance and nothing extreme. I wish they would. Crit fanatics would weep.

The point in efficiency is to get to the next tier. Some of the even more elite specs I've seen have no mana regen talents at all and use that extra point up for hit.

You don't really have to go for ArP if you don't want to. I've seen some amazing numbers from hunters who full stack it, but agility hunters are supposed to be adequate. ArP is really what put marks over surv in the first place, otherwise the two are about matched. The only reason I really have my hunter as surv is because I like the burst damage.

On the armor note, it's something a lot of people have missed the point in this xpac. They've gotten over infatuated with numbers and miss the value of soaking up damage instead of having more health to loose. This is one of the reasons on my hunter I outlive my guildmates hunters, as well as my pets. She's also awesome in pvp. Armor however does nothing against spell damage.

Chrizesu wrote:I know some people would sue me for saying this, but the 2% crit loss does become near negligible when you've racked up a lot of crit from your other talents and gear. Especially basing your damage more on luck is really a BAD IDEA. Some people are so lucky bosses only have standard crit avoidance and nothing extreme. I wish they would. Crit fanatics would weep.

That's why I asked. ^_^ Cause that was how the numbers looked to me as well and I'm already rocking ridiculous amounts of crit with raid buffs.

Chrizesu wrote:The point in efficiency is to get to the next tier. Some of the even more elite specs I've seen have no mana regen talents at all and use that extra point up for hit.

Ah good, so there is some leeway with it.

Chrizesu wrote:You don't really have to go for ArP if you don't want to. I've seen some amazing numbers from hunters who full stack it, but agility hunters are supposed to be adequate. ArP is really what put marks over surv in the first place, otherwise the two are about matched. The only reason I really have my hunter as surv is because I like the burst damage.

I've seen hunters gemmed for agi vs. hunters gemmed for arp and they've come out about even. I'm not totally convinced that ArP is still the end-all be-all to marks, not since the nerf. But I'm not going to condemn the hunters who still favor it.

Chrizesu wrote:On the armor note, it's something a lot of people have missed the point in this xpac. They've gotten over infatuated with numbers and miss the value of soaking up damage instead of having more health to loose. This is one of the reasons on my hunter I outlive my guildmates hunters, as well as my pets. She's also awesome in pvp. Armor however does nothing against spell damage.

Well, we can't all be tanks and see that tanks are actually using/favoring trinkets with +armor procs and such. With that said, hunters and their pets aren't really taking PHYSICAL damage in raids, since most of the AoE counts as spell damage. So I am curious as to what fights the armor truly helps on, since I can't think of many fights that this would help on. Marrowgar? Saurfang possibly?

It's very very tempting to swap specs, though for the moment, I'm sticking with a more standard spec, since I'm not 100% sure where my current troubles are stemming from and I'd like to mess with my rotations and engagement time first.

Kalliope wrote:

Chrizesu wrote:You don't really have to go for ArP if you don't want to. I've seen some amazing numbers from hunters who full stack it, but agility hunters are supposed to be adequate. ArP is really what put marks over surv in the first place, otherwise the two are about matched. The only reason I really have my hunter as surv is because I like the burst damage.

I've seen hunters gemmed for agi vs. hunters gemmed for arp and they've come out about even. I'm not totally convinced that ArP is still the end-all be-all to marks, not since the nerf. But I'm not going to condemn the hunters who still favor it.

Chrizesu wrote:On the armor note, it's something a lot of people have missed the point in this xpac. They've gotten over infatuated with numbers and miss the value of soaking up damage instead of having more health to loose. This is one of the reasons on my hunter I outlive my guildmates hunters, as well as my pets. She's also awesome in pvp. Armor however does nothing against spell damage.

Well, we can't all be tanks and see that tanks are actually using/favoring trinkets with +armor procs and such. With that said, hunters and their pets aren't really taking PHYSICAL damage in raids, since most of the AoE counts as spell damage. So I am curious as to what fights the armor truly helps on, since I can't think of many fights that this would help on. Marrowgar? Saurfang possibly?

It's very very tempting to swap specs, though for the moment, I'm sticking with a more standard spec, since I'm not 100% sure where my current troubles are stemming from and I'd like to mess with my rotations and engagement time first.

I've seen a lot of numbers from elitistjerks on the thought of ArP, and it still contributes a good amount. Partly because with ArP aimed shot can actually equal or overtake chimerae shots.

Pets actually take very little spell AOE now, but they're still subject to stuff the melee dps gets hit with. A lot of this depends on the fight as well. Not to mention your raid strategies. I know my guild still has me hunter tank some mobs in lesser raids. Partly because I do a good job, while some of the hunters on my server can't even misdirect pull right.

Stam does help a lot in fights like malagos, so it'll take more research to see if it's a more suitable approach in Icecrown specifically.
Still wouldn't put anything into revive pet. In my mind of a healer, it's too late if it's dead.

Oh, and since pets take little from aoe now, you might consider getting a bm set, as I've been hearing reports that bm is more useful on moving fights.
That first boss in ICC is such a pain. My mage only gets one cast off before everything gets moved.

Chrizesu wrote:Pets actually take very little spell AOE now, but they're still subject to stuff the melee dps gets hit with. A lot of this depends on the fight as well. Not to mention your raid strategies. I know my guild still has me hunter tank some mobs in lesser raids. Partly because I do a good job, while some of the hunters on my server can't even misdirect pull right.

Very true about raid strategies. I'm still not seeing which fights other than the others I mentioned are rough when it comes to physical damage.

Chrizesu wrote:Stam does help a lot in fights like malagos, so it'll take more research to see if it's a more suitable approach in Icecrown specifically.

I can think of a number of ICC fights with magical AoE damage (Lady D, Rotface, Festergut, Prof P, Blood Princes, Blood Queen, Dreamwalker, Sindragosa, LK) where the little bit of extra health would help.

Chrizesu wrote:Still wouldn't put anything into revive pet. In my mind of a healer, it's too late if it's dead.

Well, yes, obviously. And pets really shouldn't be dying too much anymore. It was about the only other mildly useful talent I could think of putting points into. If I was messing with this spec, I'd likely go for the extra health.

Chrizesu wrote:Oh, and since pets take little from aoe now, you might consider getting a bm set, as I've been hearing reports that bm is more useful on moving fights.

O_o Reports from what sources? BM has fewer instants to throw while on the move. Sure, there's the added pet damage, but I wouldn't call it equivalent.

Chrizesu wrote:That first boss in ICC is such a pain. My mage only gets one cast off before everything gets moved.

If you stand correctly, you can cast pretty well as any ranged class, with minimal movement from fire. Besides, arcane mages can sit in the fire a bit for incanter's procs. The ones who get screwed are the hunters, since they deadzone moving closer to melee for quicker spike deaths.

Stats to Go For on Gear
Hit is above all others when not capped.
BM
Attack Power/RAP = Intellect> Agility > Critical Strike > Strength > Armor Penetration > Haste
Marks
Agility or Armor Penetration > Attack Power/RAP = Intellect > Critical Strike > Haste > Strength
Surv
Agility > Attack Power/RAP = Intellect > Critical Strike > Armor Penetration > Stamina > Haste > Strength

Take strength off as a stat hunters should get. No reason to go for any items with strength. Pets do not inherit strength from you. Pets inherit your ranged attack power you get from AP, agi, and int if you have careful aim.

Wassa wrote:

Stats to Go For on Gear
Hit is above all others when not capped.
BM
Attack Power/RAP = Intellect> Agility > Critical Strike > Strength > Armor Penetration > Haste
Marks
Agility or Armor Penetration > Attack Power/RAP = Intellect > Critical Strike > Haste > Strength
Surv
Agility > Attack Power/RAP = Intellect > Critical Strike > Armor Penetration > Stamina > Haste > Strength

Take strength off as a stat hunters should get. No reason to go for any items with strength. Pets do not inherit strength from you. Pets inherit your ranged attack power you get from AP, agi, and int if you have careful aim.

This is a good point.

And it brings up another good point: int is still not a hunter stat, despite the careful aim talent. You pick it up on gear and that's fine, but you don't pick one piece over another because it has more int on it (unless you're looking at leather vs. mail, but due to that very talent, there's pretty much no leather pieces left out there that hold interest for us).

Kalliope wrote:

Chrizesu wrote:Oh, and since pets take little from aoe now, you might consider getting a bm set, as I've been hearing reports that bm is more useful on moving fights.

O_o Reports from what sources? BM has fewer instants to throw while on the move. Sure, there's the added pet damage, but I wouldn't call it equivalent.

Chrizesu wrote:That first boss in ICC is such a pain. My mage only gets one cast off before everything gets moved.

If you stand correctly, you can cast pretty well as any ranged class, with minimal movement from fire. Besides, arcane mages can sit in the fire a bit for incanter's procs. The ones who get screwed are the hunters, since they deadzone moving closer to melee for quicker spike deaths.

You evil person for making me hunt down posts. ><

I can't find the one from here I think Vephriel said. Not sure if it was here.
Other people who've tried bm in ICC that I've heard it helps were from MMO-Champ (but they have a bunch of one button macro users, not skill at all) an a few hunters on my server were discussing it in one of my PUG groups.

I had really bad groups last week. Normally my server can get up some good ones, but these were mainly sad. Not even getting past the first boss in ICC, for one the tanks were like headless chickens. As well as my guild decided to not attend anything they accepted. (My raid lead was miffed, she almost demoted the entire guild.)

Wassa wrote:

Stats to Go For on Gear
Hit is above all others when not capped.
BM
Attack Power/RAP = Intellect> Agility > Critical Strike > Strength > Armor Penetration > Haste
Marks
Agility or Armor Penetration > Attack Power/RAP = Intellect > Critical Strike > Haste > Strength
Surv
Agility > Attack Power/RAP = Intellect > Critical Strike > Armor Penetration > Stamina > Haste > Strength

Take strength off as a stat hunters should get. No reason to go for any items with strength. Pets do not inherit strength from you. Pets inherit your ranged attack power you get from AP, agi, and int if you have careful aim.

I sure hope they wouldn't be going for it, but the priority list style was based off another guide. Strength is still a 1 to 1 AP for hunters, and the calculated AP does still go to pets. Pre-BC hunters actually used some strength, but it is a weak stat for us since it's only AP when we get AP, Crit, and Armor from Agility.

Intellect is arguable. I've seen it argued just about anywhere. I actually stuck it up there as a reminder hunters get more out of mail then leather. Hunters also have a quicker oom time then arcane mages. This gives it an unusual value in calculation from viper time. Ironically I rarely have mana issues on my mage, even as one of the most notoriously oom classes.

I sure hope they wouldn't be going for it, but the priority list style was based off another guide. Strength is still a 1 to 1 AP for hunters, and the calculated AP does still go to pets.

Pets DO NOT inherit strength. Pets inherit our RAP or ranged attack power. Strength only gives us melee AP, so pets (and hunters) do not benefit from strength.

Wassa wrote:

I sure hope they wouldn't be going for it, but the priority list style was based off another guide. Strength is still a 1 to 1 AP for hunters, and the calculated AP does still go to pets.

Pets DO NOT inherit strength. Pets inherit our RAP or ranged attack power. Strength only gives us melee AP, so pets (and hunters) do not benefit from strength.

After looking it up I stand corrected.

I just have one quick question for you. About this:

Chrizesu wrote:Gear Stats:
BM
Attack Power/RAP = Intellect> Agility > Critical Strike > Armor Penetration > Haste

I am not a number cruncher by any means. I go by what I hear/read rather then calculating things for myself, and even then, Pet scaling has always been a little bit of a fuzzy area in my mind (Far too many formulas for me to grasp...).
One thing I know, like you said, is the 1 to 1 conversion of Agility to Attack Power. That being said, would it not still be better for BM Hunters to go for Agility over Attack Power? You get that AP from the Agility, plus Crit and Armor, over just the one AP.
Or, does Agility AP not scale with Pets?...

Pets get more AP from our AP than our Agility. That's why.

Saturo wrote:Pets get more AP from our AP than our Agility. That's why.

Ahhh, see, that I didn't know.

Saturo wrote:Pets get more AP from our AP than our Agility. That's why.

Not exactly... it comes down to itemization. Every item has a certain amount of "points" that are spent on stats. Agility is worth 1 of these points, and AP is worth .5. So 2 AP is equivalent in itemization to 1 Agi. You can see this in gems.

So pets don't get more AP from AP, just you get more AP total if you go for it directly, rather than via Agi.

Sharilar wrote:

Saturo wrote:Pets get more AP from our AP than our Agility. That's why.

Not exactly... it comes down to itemization. Every item has a certain amount of "points" that are spent on stats. Agility is worth 1 of these points, and AP is worth .5. So 2 AP is equivalent in itemization to 1 Agi. You can see this in gems.

So pets don't get more AP from AP, just you get more AP total if you go for it directly, rather than via Agi.

This.

Agility's appeal is that it gives a split of ap and crit. Raw ap gives you more ap, but no crit.

I should rename this thread to hunter discussion.