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So today I find out that half the guild trying to do ICC 25. Keyword is that they tried. Needless to say they wiped badly on the first boss. I couldn't believe the GM would even think to attempt it. Very foolish. They are still struggling with the 4th boss in ICC. They usually one shot all the way up to him and then hardly get past him. It makes no sense he would try do this.

*Picks up shotgun*
Where does your GM live? Me and him... Gonna' have a little... Talk...

Sounds like what people do for fun on my server.

Sometimes people need to come up against the hard barrier before they can admit they have one. Then they can work on their weaknesses.

Unless they just don't have the skills... in some ways, I think Naxx should be a guild prereq before raiding past it. You learn so many good lessons about raiding in that instance. Most importantly you find out some fights you can't overgear as easily.

If no one's being unduly pressured to come along, I don't see a problem with it. While it's pretty obvious that they're not up to par, it might be nice to have a change of pace and wipe against something else for a change. A bit less frustrating, I think, than ramming your head repeatedly against an obstacle that you just can't overcome. And you get to see something new.

Look on the bright side: If the first boss didn't die, nobody got saved! xD

Back when I raided on my warlock, my guild leader had something of a similar issue. Mind you, this was when "raiding" was meaning either Naxx, or Sarthy, or VoA (and only one boss in there!).

She'd take people in for Naxx, and we'd wipe on a boss. Sometimes from people not being geared enough. Sometimes from people not being skilled enough. I'unno. But we wiped repeatedly. Over. And over. And over. But she kept insisting we keep trying. It was brutal.

(Noone tell her I said this, I still wubbles her.)

Epicfail wrote:Unless they just don't have the skills... in some ways, I think Naxx should be a guild prereq before raiding past it. You learn so many good lessons about raiding in that instance. Most importantly you find out some fights you can't overgear as easily.

Two things wrong with this.

One: With how overgeared people are now, that would do nothing to be honest.Yes I was in a raid the other week where we did wipe on trash, but only from an accident and only because we didn't realize there was a second pat. After that we pretty much were oneshotting crap.

Two: People on Hellscream, let alone other servers seem to want achievements for everything. Including Naxx normal, so this also once again defeats anyone learning anything if they can't get into a raid.

Also there are videos and there are guides but I'm a person who learns better by experiencing the fight, a few times. And it doesn't help when no one bothers to tell me who does what, when to move and what to avoid.

thats how our guild learns what needs to be done on the fight, we go and try it, if we wipe no biggie and we learned 1 more way how NOT to win that fight and we try again. our repair bills (well the prime raiders) is covered by the guild so i dont mind wiping over and over and over again to learn how to efficiantly do the fight and move on to the next. we just call it progression and we keepo going till we get it right and we raid almost everyday lol.

I still think he was foolish to try 25man ICC so soon. I'm gonna ask em why he did it.

Ryai wrote: Also there are videos and there are guides but I'm a person who learns better by experiencing the fight, a few times. And it doesn't help when no one bothers to tell me who does what, when to move and what to avoid.

I hear that. I can read about the fight all day, but until I do it once or twice and get used to it....I still feel like I'm going in blind. Of course I mostly have this issue for 5mans, and it doesn't help that a lot of the randoms I run with are so overgeared that they can just burn their way through bosses and ignore the strategies now.

For example in Gundrak, one of the random groups wanted to try the Less-Rabi achievement. But they didn't bother to set up a interrupt rotation order...just plowed right in, hoping to burn him down fast enough. That's not how it works, guys

~VelkynKarma

AdamSavage wrote:I still think he was foolish to try 25man ICC so soon. I'm gonna ask em why he did it.

25m encounters are usually easier than the 10m ones.

Except you have to have 15 extra people who have half a clue to be able to do it.

If you weren't there and didn't get repair bills, why do you care? It's their gold.

Ryai wrote:

Epicfail wrote:Unless they just don't have the skills... in some ways, I think Naxx should be a guild prereq before raiding past it. You learn so many good lessons about raiding in that instance. Most importantly you find out some fights you can't overgear as easily.

Two things wrong with this.

One: With how overgeared people are now, that would do nothing to be honest.Yes I was in a raid the other week where we did wipe on trash, but only from an accident and only because we didn't realize there was a second pat. After that we pretty much were oneshotting crap.

Two: People on Hellscream, let alone other servers seem to want achievements for everything. Including Naxx normal, so this also once again defeats anyone learning anything if they can't get into a raid.

Also there are videos and there are guides but I'm a person who learns better by experiencing the fight, a few times. And it doesn't help when no one bothers to tell me who does what, when to move and what to avoid.

This hunter was on hellscream for a time. I sometimes miss it a little... not missing alliance side, but thats another story

I respectfully have two things wrong with your two things:

One: Heigan's dance. Razuv's trainee's MCs. There are SOME fights in Naxx that cannot be overgeared so easily. If people suck at playing these fights or don't know them, its going to take some learning to get through them. That is really all I'm saying. Not to mention, even the trash in Naxx requires you know whats coming next to avoid a wipe, like taking on too many gargoyles at once.

Two: Its a starter raid. I never said anything about precluding anyone from it. I did say something about precluding people from ICC that didn't learn things in Naxx. That would serve to make better raiders overall, especially since you can badge gear just about everything you need to run through naxx (gearwise) successfully.

I'm just sayin...

Same concept, different instance. Try Ulduar for somewhat complex fights that can't necessarily be overpowered through. I mean, they can, but if the entire raid can't execute a fight, then you're going to end up with dead people.

ToC is also a good instance to test people in. The available badge gear puts the raid at the same gear level and while fights are easier than they might be elsewhere, there's still some fights that will block the unprepared raid. The catch with ToC is...no trash.

So that's my suggestion for people trying to get their raiders focused. Practice in those instances and/or in the first wing of ICC.

Epicfail wrote:One: Heigan's dance.

I saw the vid of what you need to do. You don't really have to learn so much as hey everyone is moving, I'm going to move too. Like with the VoA fights. I knew nothing about the fire boss but I just stood where other DPS stood and watched what they did.

And ofc moved away from the fires.

Razuv's trainee's MCs.

Actually that was where we had the first wipe and it was the weekly raid- why we were there. We pretty much blew thru the instance AND that. And the only tacts really required? Tanks mc the mobs, healers heal them, we as dps nuke. I'm sorry but... it wasn't that complicated of a fight :|

Naxx is not... that hard imo. I mean, it may be challenging, but compared to the worse fights/instances I've been in? OC still makes me shudder, more than Naxx ever would.

Admitedly I am talking from my lv 80 hunter experience and NOT my tank, but the same concept applies [untill I get there on Caim]. Naxx isn't really where you should go for 'training lessons'.

There are SOME fights in Naxx that cannot be overgeared so easily. If people suck at playing these fights or don't know them, its going to take some learning to get through them. That is really all I'm saying. Not to mention, even the trash in Naxx requires you know whats coming next to avoid a wipe, like taking on too many gargoyles at once.

Sadly have to point out, yes Naxx can be overgeared. On the PTR, not this one last one, before Ulda, I had made a copy drood. Balance/Resto. I out healed the shammy, healed the whole raid, and we pretty much zergged thru with a single tank past the one boss where you have to switch sides and you do need two tanks. I even out healed the resto shammy :| We were brainless quacks and we took down like 5 bosses or so. idk I don't remember. The only time we failed and called it a night was on the spider cause by then everyone had to leave.

Then there's also the fact Naxx =/= other dungeons. If you really want people to learn, you shouldn't go to 'lowbie raids and raid' you won't learn tacts you really need for other dungeons and not ICC imo. If you want to learn the fight you have to do said raid, or you have to use lower raids to work out comunication.

I agree with Kalliope tho, go to Ulduar. You really do need smart people, people who listen and people who know how to comunicate for some of the fights I've been in. Ignis was a bit of a challenge, and the siege engines too for the levi fight. While we didn't fail on the Ignis run it was less then fun because I didn't get a bike and so I was stuck with someone who didn't talk or tell me what to do. And never went to the Pyrite containers too >_>

ugghh. My GM want's to do 25 man now everyday thursday... We have only managed to clear the first wing and he wants to try 25 man ICC ? Suicidal I say. I flat out refuse to do it.

I get that we can pretty much one shot the first wing but we have not gotten past that unless u count trash leading up to festergut.

OK so now GM wants to form a better team 2. The slow and painful way. If you don't have situational awareness ,don't listen or don't show up and you don't have a legit reason then your not asked back. So during this I have tolerate it and get more and more frustrated. I just wanna scream. I'm getting so damn fed up with raiding.. I don't know what's keeping me going. My friends on Team 1 are already ahead of me in gear and dps. This totally sucks.

Aye, my guild has a "B-team". I find their raids to be more fun and easygoing. Showing up there with a Gondria is fun, because I know we'll have a lot of fun.

Yeah... I don't remember what I meant to write when I started this post... Oh right, fun. If it's not fun, quit. Taking a break from raiding is awesome. I did that in Ulduar. Came back in the middle of ToC. If you still feel like raiding, but not with those guildmates, change guild. It's your fun we're talking about, not the "duty to gear up" as a RL in PUG once said. If you don't have fun, explain it to the GM/RL. If they don't understand, go off of the raiding team for a while.

Do your own thing, you know.

I'm gonna give a final shot tonight and if it's still being dragged on and we are wiping left and right I'm gonna just not raid till the expansion or sooner.

Saturo wrote:If it's not fun, quit.

Saturo is spot on with this. It's your $15/month. You're playing a game, not working a job. It's supposed to be fun, relaxing, and rewarding. Honestly, with everything you've been complaining about here, I'd say you need a change of scenery. Not all raiding guilds make the raiders feel like there's an inner circle that gets preferential treatment, and not all GMs pull stunts like yours did with that drake mount...