BM Hunter concerns

[Kalliope]

Excellent! Thank you again! ^_^

[Cerah]

I know you said to tone down the praise, but your post was very well written Tobias --I think one of the best-written posts I've ever seen on a message board. It's logicaly organized, and brings up a concern that I think many Beastmaster Hunters have had since announcing the Cataclysm class "special abilities". I'd almost think this was a professional presentation!

I hope Blizzard is as impressed by your professionalism as we are! Good job!

[Satyr]

While a decent post, I'm going to rain on your parade but disagreeing with this statement.....

"Intimidation is primarily a pet tanking spell, and relies on the Hunter using their pet as a tank. Some people like to play their hunter this way, and there is nothing wrong with that, but there is also no reason to push players of any dps spec into this mentality. Using your pet as a tank should be a choice of your playstyle, not a choice of which talent tree you want to use."

You should have expressed this as "IMO,....blah blah".

I've never, ever used it as a tanking spell/skill. I've used it on all my pets -- PVP, dps, tanks, etc. I've used it for stuns (such as the Valkyrs in LK fight) on mobs able too ---- not all tankable mobs can be stunned. I've used it as an interrupt on various players and mobs ---- that are stunnable. I've used it to help other players in 5 mans --- to get the mob off that player if the mob was stunnable.

Even when I used a tanking pet ---almost never used stun/intimidate ---mostly used Misdirect if not exclusively.

So while I like most of what you said, intimidate just seem to fit the pattern for signature spell as the other specs/classes....I just only disagree with the "use" of intimidate as you explained it.

IMO -- Intimidate is our exclusive stun/interrupt without relying on a specific pet being out.

[Kalliope]

That was my argument initially, Satyr, but looking across the board - at other classes too - it doesn't fit with the signature move of ANY class/spec. I could see it as a talent, deep enough in the tree that other specs can't get it, or even a supplemental passive ability, but it's just not the backbone of the spec. Exotics are, and the changes to exotics and pets in general only support this. Even the exotics with damage abilities aren't going to be doing as much damage at that level. (Hell, even level 80 worms are currently only doing 1-2 damage per tick with their burrow, so it certainly can be scaled down.)

I don't use intimidation for tanking much either, so I'm with you on that, but it's just not appropriate as a passive ability for the class, not now that we know what direction Blizzard's taken exotics in.

[Necrie]

Kill command should be the signature ability of the BM tree.
It should be usable only by BM and have damage comparable to explosive shot and chimera shot.

While this sounds good at first glance, remember, Kill command has been around for all specs since it was introduced. Kill command is a versatile tool that isn't spec dependent. For example, it is a valuable tool to have when PVP'ing and your opponent tries to LoS you. You can still use KC if your pet is on them. Another example is the threat generated by Kill command is attributed to your pet, so it is also very important when soloing tougher mobs, in that it's another ability that almost double dips to keep threat off you (what I mean by this is it uses your focus, and doesn't cause you to receive any threat). These are just a couple of examples, but needless to say, while BM gets the most out of Kill Command, it should not be exclusive to BM.

While a decent post, I'm going to rain on your parade but disagreeing with this statement.....

"Intimidation is primarily a pet tanking spell, a......[removed for length]
You should have expressed this as "IMO,....blah blah".

I've never, ever used it as a tanking spell/skill. I've used it on all my pets -- PVP, dps, tanks, etc. I've used it for stuns (such as the Valkyrs in LK fight) on mobs able too ---- not all tankable mobs can be stunned. I've used it as an interrupt on various players and mobs ---- that are stunnable. I've used it to help other players in 5 mans --- to get the mob off that player if the mob was stunnable.

Even when I used a tanking pet ---almost never used stun/intimidate ---mostly used Misdirect if not exclusively.

So while I like most of what you said, intimidate just seem to fit the pattern for signature spell as the other specs/classes....I just only disagree with the "use" of intimidate as you explained it.

IMO -- Intimidate is our exclusive stun/interrupt without relying on a specific pet being out.

Intimidation is primarily a tanking ability plain and simple. If it wasn't, then it would not generate a high amount of threat.
It is secondly a utility spell, that is useful in some situations, mostly PVP and solo. As many bosses are immune to stun, you can't usually consider it useful for that in raiding/instancing. I will not use it when instancing/raiding on off target as an interrupt, because my pet is far more useful when alive than if it grabs agro and gets pulped. If I need an interrupt, I'll bust out a Gorilla or Nether Ray. To address trying to save someone with Intimidate, personally, the only person I would take my pet of the current kill target for is the healer. If I manage to have the time to successfully do this (i.e. Target the mob on the healer, sic my pet on them, cast intimidate, take into account the travel time for my pet to arrive and use intimidate), then the tank isn't doing their job.
You don't use intimidation as part of your DPS rotation, so its not a DPS ability.

What does that leave us with ? Well, it still generates a large amount of threat. When is threat important ? When tanking. Tanking doesn't necessarily have to be in an instance. It simply is what ever your pet has threat on. Intimidation helps with that.

Another thing to consider is that come Cata, the only thing Intimidation will cost us is a GCD. It requires no focus. Why wouldn't you use this every time you can when your pet is tanking something for you, at lest once ?

Satyr, you're trying to force your interpretation of Intimidation, both as a spell and what you feel its use is, on a very well written post. I'm not saying your interpretation is wrong, but parts of it may be shot sighted. Personally, in some ways I agree with your PoV on the spell itself, but as a Level 10 Talent ability, it just doesn't fit in. Put very simply, aside from healers, every other Talent choice ability out there is either a damage dealing ability, or a damage augmenting ability, even in the tanking trees. Intimidation just doesn't fit in. We're a DPS class. Our Talent choice ability should be a DPS ability, not a tanking/utility one.


TobiasX, this is a fantastic and well thought out post. Nicely done. I truly hope that Blizzard listens.

[TobiasX]

While a decent post, I'm going to rain on your parade but disagreeing with this statement.....

"Intimidation is primarily a pet tanking spell, and relies on the Hunter using their pet as a tank. Some people like to play their hunter this way, and there is nothing wrong with that, but there is also no reason to push players of any dps spec into this mentality. Using your pet as a tank should be a choice of your playstyle, not a choice of which talent tree you want to use."

You should have expressed this as "IMO,....blah blah".

I've never, ever used it as a tanking spell/skill. I've used it on all my pets -- PVP, dps, tanks, etc. I've used it for stuns (such as the Valkyrs in LK fight) on mobs able too ---- not all tankable mobs can be stunned. I've used it as an interrupt on various players and mobs ---- that are stunnable. I've used it to help other players in 5 mans --- to get the mob off that player if the mob was stunnable.

Even when I used a tanking pet ---almost never used stun/intimidate ---mostly used Misdirect if not exclusively.

So while I like most of what you said, intimidate just seem to fit the pattern for signature spell as the other specs/classes....I just only disagree with the "use" of intimidate as you explained it.

IMO -- Intimidate is our exclusive stun/interrupt without relying on a specific pet being out.

Thanks for the feedback, but I disagree with your disagreement

Here is the text for Intimidation, quoted from wowhead:

"Command your pet to intimidate the target, causing a high amount of threat and stunning the target for 3 sec. Lasts 15 sec."

The text states that the first thing it does is cause a high amount of threat, and this means that it is primarily a tanking spell. It isn't a "Stun that happens to cause a high amount of threat", it's a "high threat spell that happens to stun".

In addition to this, the dictionary definition of Intimidate from http://www.dictionary.com


"in·tim·i·date
   /ɪnˈtɪmɪˌdeɪt/ Show Spelled[in-tim-i-deyt] Show IPA
–verb (used with object), -dat·ed, -dat·ing.
1.
to make timid; fill with fear.
2.
to overawe or cow, as through the force of personality or by superior display of wealth, talent, etc.
3.
to force into or deter from some action by inducing fear: to intimidate a voter into staying away from the polls."

There is nothing wrong with choosing to focus on the stun aspect of the spell, but the primary effect of Intimidation is to cause the target to focus more on your pet than it already is, therefore it is a tanking spell.

If you agree or disagree with anything in what I've posted then please reply in the EU or NA threads linked in the original post as well. The more replies those threads get that aren't "bump for great justice!" the more likely they are to get noticed by Blizz

[Satyr]

Satyr, you're trying to force your interpretation of Intimidation, both as a spell and what you feel its use is, on a very well written post. I'm not saying your interpretation is wrong, but parts of it may be short sighted.

Thanks for the feedback, but I disagree with your disagreement....The text states that the first thing it does is cause a high amount of threat, and this means that it is primarily a tanking spell. It isn't a "Stun that happens to cause a high amount of threat", it's a "high threat spell that happens to stun".

Force opinion....no, I actually state that IMO --- I wouldn't use it as a tanking option. As you pointed out and agreed with what I already pointed out --- most bosses are IMMUNE to stun. You see immune. So you can't stun with it ---so you cannot generate threat with it.

The original post and some supporters are pushing that its a pure tank ability.

Misdirect is the best option for the pet tanking/threat gain. The amount of threat intimidate generates is poor at best if it was used as a threat.

While you may not use the ability to get a mob off a healer or other fellow, I would. And really, I use the "stun" portion and pull the pet back to hopefully allow the tank a chance to regain threat himself. A dead pet is better than a dead or other dps anyways Also, with LK and BC, pet rez is very quick - so the dead pet isnt dead for long. Beta now, thats a different issue. Pet rez is too slow.

Its our stun/interrupt, again IMO. Intimidate has proved more useful to me this way than the tank option.

So not at all short sighted, different than yours for sure. If it all I offer a different point of view, which actually means a broader vision.



On the merits of the post on the basic premise of a signature ability, again --- as I have stated ---- intimidate does not match with other classes/specs abilities. So I agree with the OP on the basic thoughts. But I do and allow to disagree with the narrow path that intimidate is just for tanking. I have read and understand its generates threat; but as we again already both stated boss immunity to stun and alot of mobs in dungeons/raids - makes it a poor utility to generate threat being immune to the ability. So while it may say "generate threat" - its rare use to actually generate threat in a given dungeon to make it live up to a tanking ability. Also, its a poor stun/interrupt ability as well.

Overall, in its current form --- its of poor use --- whether for stunning/interrupt (which I would use) or for threat generation (that you would use).

Now, in beta -- I've found more mobs/situations in the dungeons and heroics that are stunnable. Also the stun lasts 15 sec up from 3. So it can also be a short lived CC. But like you, I still don't like it as a signature ability.

[Anyia]

May I suggest also having this discussion over on the WoW forum thread in parallel so this gets some extra exposure? It's a wee bit quiet over there at the moment (at least the US thread).

[Cerah]

I would personally like to know why Beastial Wrath/The Beast Within wasn't picked initially for our "special" BM ability. It's definately iconic, is something unique to Beastmasters and always has been, and it goes without saying that it's useful. I use it for every boss and mini-boss, or whenever things are getting hairy in general. In short, it seems to be for Beastmasters what other classes and talent trees' special abilities are to them.

I agree with an earlier post that stated that Intimidation is just a step on the way to BW/TBW on our current talent trees. I'm just curious as to why something that seems to obvious to me apparently wasn't to Blizzard's programmers.

Still, Beta is still just a Beta. Hopefully, topics like TobiasX's *will* be noticed and taken into account.

[Aylfric]

Just because Intimidate causes threat doesn't mean that it's a pet tanking ability in the sense of "I will use this only when my pet is tanking".

I mean, the spell has been in the game since vanilla, and I can remember using it to stop mobs going for the healer. And in case anyone repeats "but that means the tank wasn't doing their job!", well, tanks didn't have such good AOE tanking abilities back then. And maybe they weren't very experienced.

Fact is, it's a utility, not a tanking spell. You can use it to increase pet tank threat, stop something going for your healer, interrupt a spellcast (if the mob is stunnable, e.g. the shade inside the Lich King's sword), or stun someone in PVP.


As far as taming exotic pets go - I do think that the later level is a concern. However, it struck me that this is an issue for EVERY class and EVERY spec in the game. Whatever their 51-point talent is, assuming it's now the 31-point talent, isn't reachable by level 60 any more.

I think that Bestial Wrath is too powerful to hand out at level 10. It kind of sucks, but I think Intimidate is it, unless Blizzard decided to change their mind and make KC the BM-specific ability. But, I don't think they'll do that, nor should they necessarily, because KC could be useful to the other specs at times.

[Anyia]

Fact is, it's a utility, not a tanking spell.

And that's the head of the nail right there! All other damage dealer specs have their special as something which directly increases their damage output, which makes it feel like BM is the "odd dog out" with a stun ability. As a utility spell it would make an excellent talent in my mind - something which can be very worthwhile to pick up if you can spare a point for it, but not 100% necessary depending on your play style.

[Renle]

Added my 2 cents

[Lisaara]

Seems Blizzard listened about Kill Command though.

[Curumor]

Force opinion....no, I actually state that IMO --- I wouldn't use it as a tanking option. As you pointed out and agreed with what I already pointed out --- most bosses are IMMUNE to stun. You see immune. So you can't stun with it ---so you cannot generate threat with it.

Afaik, Intimidation will still cause the additional threat even if the target is immune to stuns (used it a lot while solo'ing bosses).
In the same way Garrote applies a DoT first and foremost, and a short silence if possible, Intimidation will always cause the additional threat and, if possible, stun the target.

Just because Intimidate causes threat doesn't mean that it's a pet tanking ability in the sense of "I will use this only when my pet is tanking".

I mean, the spell has been in the game since vanilla, and I can remember using it to stop mobs going for the healer. And in case anyone repeats "but that means the tank wasn't doing their job!", well, tanks didn't have such good AOE tanking abilities back then. And maybe they weren't very experienced.

Fact is, it's a utility, not a tanking spell. You can use it to increase pet tank threat, stop something going for your healer, interrupt a spellcast (if the mob is stunnable, e.g. the shade inside the Lich King's sword), or stun someone in PVP.

I disagree. As I said, threat is caused regardless of stun immunity, making it a tanking ability with utility. Personally, I used it extensively in TBC for CC, interrupts and so on.
But compare it to Hand of Reckoning (a ranged pala taunt). HoR is a clear tanking spell. But if you're not the tank, it still has it's uses, since it causes dmg if the target is not targetting you. So it can also be used for taking out fleeing mobs or taking from other players.

[TobiasX]

You see immune. So you can't stun with it ---so you cannot generate threat with it.

I'm not actually sure about this, so I went to see our mutual friend named "Fel Reaver" who is immune to stuns (it shows up as Immune when I use the spell and he doesn't have the Intimidation debuff). I disabled all the abilities on my devilsaur and sent him in after using an auto attack myself so we both showed up on Omen. My pet did roughly 0.4k threat on a white attack and 0.7k threat on a crit but each time I used Intimidation I saw spikes of roughly 1.5k threat. Even if my pet critted at the same time that's still 0.8k threat coming from nowhere.

Has anyone else tested Intimidation's threat generation of stun immune mobs?

The original post and some supporters are pushing that its a pure tank ability.

Slight disagreement with the wording here. I think it is mainly or primarily a tanking ability but I admit that the stun also makes it a pvp utility. It does have other uses than tanking.

While you may not use the ability to get a mob off a healer or other fellow, I would. And really, I use the "stun" portion and pull the pet back to hopefully allow the tank a chance to regain threat himself. A dead pet is better than a dead or other dps anyways Also, with LK and BC, pet rez is very quick - so the dead pet isnt dead for long. Beta now, thats a different issue. Pet rez is too slow.

Its our stun/interrupt, again IMO. Intimidate has proved more useful to me this way than the tank option.

You're welcome to focus on the part that you prefer but as the first thing the spell mentions in it's tooltip is that it generates a high amount of threat so, as far as I'm concerned, it's a tanking spell. I'd actually go as far as to say that any spell that clearly states "this does a high amount of threat" is primarily a tanking tool no matter what else it does.

So not at all short sighted, different than yours for sure. If it all I offer a different point of view, which actually means a broader vision.

True. I have no problem with people disagreeing with me when it's more thought out than a random forum flame, so regardless of what we disagree on thanks for contributing to the discussion.

On the merits of the post on the basic premise of a signature ability, again --- as I have stated ---- intimidate does not match with other classes/specs abilities. So I agree with the OP on the basic thoughts. But I do and allow to disagree with the narrow path that intimidate is just for tanking. I have read and understand its generates threat; but as we again already both stated boss immunity to stun and alot of mobs in dungeons/raids - makes it a poor utility to generate threat being immune to the ability. So while it may say "generate threat" - its rare use to actually generate threat in a given dungeon to make it live up to a tanking ability. Also, its a poor stun/interrupt ability as well.

Overall, in its current form --- its of poor use --- whether for stunning/interrupt (which I would use) or for threat generation (that you would use).

Now, in beta -- I've found more mobs/situations in the dungeons and heroics that are stunnable. Also the stun lasts 15 sec up from 3. So it can also be a short lived CC. But like you, I still don't like it as a signature ability.

I'm glad there was some middle-ground. Intimidation is not solely for tanking but I still maintain that it's primary use is for tanking, therefore it is a tanking spell that happens to stun rather than a stun spell that happens to cause high threat.

[TobiasX]

May I suggest also having this discussion over on the WoW forum thread in parallel so this gets some extra exposure? It's a wee bit quiet over there at the moment (at least the US thread).

WTB combined forums.

[Nakari]

May I suggest also having this discussion over on the WoW forum thread in parallel so this gets some extra exposure? It's a wee bit quiet over there at the moment (at least the US thread).

WTB combined forums.

Oh god, please no

The official forums are a creepy, frightening place full of scary trolls, no need for those here!

[TobiasX]

May I suggest also having this discussion over on the WoW forum thread in parallel so this gets some extra exposure? It's a wee bit quiet over there at the moment (at least the US thread).

WTB combined forums.

Oh god, please no

The official forums are a creepy, frightening place full of scary trolls, no need for those here!

I mean an international WoW forum as opposed to EU players being stuck with the EU forums while the NA players are stuck with the NA forums (although we are still jealous that you guys get replies from GC... *pout*).

As for "scary trolls" there's a reason I haven't included a link back to this thread in the EU post

[Kalliope]

*sighs at the hunter who misinterpreted this as a QQ thread*

Honestly, I don't think he actually READ the post. -_-

[TobiasX]

*sighs at the hunter who misinterpreted this as a QQ thread*

Honestly, I don't think he actually READ the post. -_-

If a post is longer than 4 lines most don't. I have faith that Blizzard isn't pat of that group but that doesn't mean things will be changed. All we can do is hope the arguments are convincing enough