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Re: *Spoilers* Sylvanas in Catacylsm
Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2010 1:07 pm
by Anansi
Palladiamorsdeus wrote:It is COMPLETELY different from normal breeding. It's taken some one who has died, fallen in one way or another, and resurrecting them into a rotting corpse to do your bidding. That is an abomination by all means.
The Forsaken are already dead. They were Humans (and others) who were born and raised normally, and then died, and were raised as mindless subservient and violent Scourge, then freed and regained their own autonomy. They were then chased out by the only people they knew, being called abominations. They then joined the Horde.
Now in order to maintain their population, Sylvanas has captured magic that can raise sentient, thinking undead, essentially birthing new Forsaken. They are not being raised to do anyone's bidding, they are being raised to be new members of the Forsaken people and are free to do with that what they please.
It's hilarious that Sylvanas now has use of the very same powers that the Lich King used to raise the Scourge, that he used to destroy her people, that he used to enslave her, and now she's using it to bolster the Forsaken. It's a pretty big "screw you!" to the Lich King and it's awesome.
Re: *Spoilers* Sylvanas in Catacylsm
Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2010 1:07 pm
by Palladiamorsdeus
But they HAVE hinted at the possibility of bringing people back. It isn't to far fetched to think that there would be a way to restore a decomposed body to a whole state, which is basically all that needs to be done to cure them of being undead. At that point you'd have the Sylvanas faction, and I actually think quite a few people would be willing to join here there in Lorderon. Certainly a lot more then would be willing to join the Forsaken.
Re: *Spoilers* Sylvanas in Catacylsm
Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2010 1:11 pm
by Palladiamorsdeus
Double! Really? You are reviving people from the opposing faction that you just KILLED, and you don't think some form of coercion is needed in order to make them try to kill the people they were just supporting? And that that, in ITSELF, potentially pitting families against one another, isn't wrong or evil?
Re: *Spoilers* Sylvanas in Catacylsm
Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2010 1:13 pm
by Saturo
But they're not themselves anymore! That's part of being undead! Their souls have left them, and I seriously doubt theycan just walk into their old houses and go "Remember when I got killed last month? Guess what!". They're not part of their families anymore, neither party would want them back in.
Re: *Spoilers* Sylvanas in Catacylsm
Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2010 1:17 pm
by Palladiamorsdeus
Which is completely untrue, you see all kinds of proof that they retain their identity, and that in some cases they do take up their former mantles and keep fighting, like the Argent Crusade. They AREN'T different people unless being controlled by an outside source, ala the Lich King prior. Also, that doesn't account for "Oh yeah, you just killed me but that's okay! I'll fight for you!" Remember Sylvanas? She didn't appreciate that being done to her, but now she is doing it to other's?
Re: *Spoilers* Sylvanas in Catacylsm
Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2010 1:18 pm
by Vephriel
Ah, the delicious taste of cruel irony.
Re: *Spoilers* Sylvanas in Catacylsm
Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2010 1:23 pm
by Aleu
Mmm, I can understand why she's doing it. If I'm correct, the Forsaken lost a good amount of forces when they invaded Gilneas. The only way they can have more Forsaken forces is if they raise more undead. Also all, she was forced/pressured into attacking it.
But Garrosh isn't completely in the wrong here. He's not going against Sylvanas' decision, but is warning her of the consequences that may come with it.
It may not be completely right, but the Forsaken have to survive one way or another. It seems, however, Garrosh is clashing with the other faction leaders. Though I think Thrall would be against this as well. One thing that makes her different from Arthas is she's not trying to destroy all life... Well I think she's not. Wrathgate didn't serve her well... I also assumed the Forsaken would want to find a way to reverse their undeath. o.O
Re: *Spoilers* Sylvanas in Catacylsm
Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2010 1:24 pm
by Rhyela
Vephriel wrote:The fact is, though, that they could never cure themselves of being undead. Their bodies have already decomposed, I don't think there's any means of going back to a normal, living human being. They've been persecuted far too long. I think Sylvanas realizes there's no point in looking for a cure that will never come to be, and let's face it...no one else is going to join their ranks, not unless they're already one of them.
She's not wasting time on morality. She's taking direct action that will ensure the survival of her people - the people they've become, the scattered remnants of outcasts that have gathered together beneath her.
You put it so eloquently, I love it.
I really don't have an opinion one way or the other, to be honest. On one hand I think it's kind of wrong, but on the other hand, these aren't mindless Scourge she's raising - as far as we know they're wholly self-aware and free to make their own choices. They make it sound like she's raising brainless ghouls, but I think in fact they are the same Forsaken that willingly joined her to begin with. No, they didn't have a choice in being raised, but now that they are, they can choose what they want to do with their lives. Er...unlives. Like someone else mentioned, it's not too far off from breeding. That child didn't have a choice to be born, it was brought into this world by means it couldn't control. But now that it's here and alive, it decides its own destiny. It's a little more of a warped and twisted kind of breeding, but to me it's not all that different.
So yeah, I suppose now that I think about it, I'm cool with it and it's pretty sweet. Heh.
Just my two copper pennies.
Re: *Spoilers* Sylvanas in Catacylsm
Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2010 1:28 pm
by Palladiamorsdeus
Considering that turning Sylvanas into an undead kind of came back to bite Arthas on the backside, Garrosh was probably trying to warn her that the same could easily happen to her. I also never said I didn't understand why she is doing it, the Worgen are romping on her pretty hard. I just don't agree with it, and for once I actually AGREE with Garrosh. It's just weird. *Laughs* Sylvanas has always been a sympathetic character to me, ever since Warcraft 3 and the Frozen throne. I just dislike seeing her stoop to the Lich Kings level.
And also, like I said, would you freely join the people who just cut you down, to then try and kill the people whom you were just protecting? Without some form of control, I'm sayin' no. Most of the Forsaken joined with Sylvanas because they were outcast after the regained their self awareness, and had no where to go.
On the flip side, it's a lot more acceptable to me if they are just raising mindless ghouls, barely animate bodies that have no soul and no consiousness.
Re: *Spoilers* Sylvanas in Catacylsm
Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2010 1:36 pm
by Saturo
Palladiamorsdeus wrote:And also, like I said, would you freely join the people who just cut you down, to then try and kill the people whom you were just protecting? Without some form of control, I'm sayin' no. Most of the Forsaken joined with Sylvanas because they were outcast after the regained their self awareness, and had no where to go.
They won''t have to force anyone, the newly raised people might as well join the people that are like them. I seriously doubt their old side would be willing to take them back.
Re: *Spoilers* Sylvanas in Catacylsm
Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2010 1:40 pm
by Palladiamorsdeus
Oh come on, you can't think it's that simple. "Yeah, sure, I may as well kill all my old friends. I mean, since you did kill me and bring me back against my will and all." I don't see it. At all. I know if some one brought ME back as an undead, my first act would be to attempt to kill the crap out of the offending individual, and THEN go looking for the person who killed me in the first place. And I am pretty sure I'm not alone in that. Granted the Gilneans won't know this, but everyone else would also know about the Argent Dawn and Crusade, who'd gladly accept help from the Forsaken. After that, I am pretty sure that your original side would much rather have you with them, instead of bolstering an enemies numbers.
Re: *Spoilers* Sylvanas in Catacylsm
Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2010 1:42 pm
by Arwyn
I'm envisioning her raising of more Forsaken like when the new DKs were brought into the world. Some humans will refuse to join the ranks of their enemy and either Sylvanas will have them destroyed or maybe they'll run away to hide in the fringes of society-both alive and undead- or they will happily take on their new existance because they aren't dead.
Re: *Spoilers* Sylvanas in Catacylsm
Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2010 1:46 pm
by Saturo
Palladiamorsdeus wrote:Oh come on, you can't think it's that simple. "Yeah, sure, I may as well kill all my old friends. I mean, since you did kill me and bring me back against my will and all." I don't see it. At all. I know if some one brought ME back as an undead, my first act would be to attempt to kill the crap out of the offending individual, and THEN go looking for the person who killed me in the first place. And I am pretty sure I'm not alone in that. Granted the Gilneans won't know this, but everyone else would also know about the Argent Dawn and Crusade, who'd gladly accept help from the Forsaken. After that, I am pretty sure that your original side would much rather have you with them, instead of bolstering an enemies numbers.
Of course not, but I seriously doubt you'd go all "Screw you guys, I'm going back to my old side!".
Some undead like undeath, as a matter of fact.
Re: *Spoilers* Sylvanas in Catacylsm
Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2010 1:48 pm
by Vephriel
Another reason I'm so excited about this is that it shows Sylvanas is still the badass Banshee Queen she always was. I'm glad that she hasn't been cowed into submission, or become withdrawn due to the whole Wrathgate fiasco. No, she's as stubborn as ever and she's not going down without a fight. That's the Sylvanas I know and love.
Re: *Spoilers* Sylvanas in Catacylsm
Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2010 1:49 pm
by Saturo
Vephriel wrote:Another reason I'm so excited about this is that it shows Sylvanas is still the badass Banshee Queen she always was. I'm glad that she hasn't been cowed into submission, or become withdrawn due to the whole Wrathgate fiasco. No, she's as stubborn as ever and she's not going down without a fight. That's the Sylvanas I know and love. ;)
Exactly! She's showing attitude!
Re: *Spoilers* Sylvanas in Catacylsm
Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2010 1:49 pm
by Palladiamorsdeus
I don't think anyone likes undead after they are turned. Some grow to like it, and it obviously corrupts a lot of them.
Re: *Spoilers* Sylvanas in Catacylsm
Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2010 1:51 pm
by Aleu
Sylvanas to is considered the Forsaken's salvation. As said before, their old families and such will not take them back. Their old lives are gone. Sure, one could break off of the Forsaken if they wished, but most don't Sylvanas gives them a place of acceptance since most other living things will not. Therefor they revere her for it.
Vephriel wrote:Another reason I'm so excited about this is that it shows Sylvanas is still the badass Banshee Queen she always was. I'm glad that she hasn't been cowed into submission, or become withdrawn due to the whole Wrathgate fiasco. No, she's as stubborn as ever and she's not going down without a fight. That's the Sylvanas I know and love.
^ This. She still has that bad ass Banshee Queen about her. Reason why I love her.
Re: *Spoilers* Sylvanas in Catacylsm
Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2010 1:52 pm
by Saturo
Palladiamorsdeus wrote:I don't think anyone likes undead after they are turned. Some grow to like it, and it obviously corrupts a lot of them.
Re: *Spoilers* Sylvanas in Catacylsm
Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2010 1:54 pm
by Palladiamorsdeus
Touche, though I mainly meant forsaken.
Re: *Spoilers* Sylvanas in Catacylsm
Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2010 2:15 pm
by Nevar
She is completely in the wrong and any last shred of respect I even held for her is now gone. Lets just torment the souls of the dead lets raise them up and pretend this is right because its what happened to me - when the dead die leave them be dont bring them into a damned existence because you need more numbers. You think they'd go willingly? Hardly - I've never liked her and I despise her more even now - she has no morals, no sense of right or wrong only what Sylvanas wants. What a leader, I do things for the sake of me.. not for my people. I agree with Garrosh here and mad props to calling her a <beep>