Why is BM so low in dps?

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Why is BM so low in dps?

Unread post by Heleos » Tue Jul 26, 2011 12:33 am

I love the Beast Mastery spec, I like taking my awesome looking pets into groups and enjoying my time with them. However, I do about 3k extra DPS with Survival (cant stand MM - too slow paced). I'm at the point where I hardly want to play my hunter bc guildies and groups all want Survival for max dps.

Why can't all three be equal just different play styles? Why must Blizzard make one better then the other? It's really ticking me off to the point where I may just stop playing my hunter. :\
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Re: Why is BM so low in dps?

Unread post by Lisaara » Tue Jul 26, 2011 1:00 am

We are equal. You're probably doing something wrong cause I give MM and SV a run for their money all the time if not topping them.

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Re: Why is BM so low in dps?

Unread post by Shade » Tue Jul 26, 2011 1:10 am

We have a slightly lower DPS by ourselves, no pet, but then as a BM, your pet is a major portion of your DPS. When you are raiding or doing instances as a BM and are concerned about your overall DPS output, you need to take a look at what pets you are bringing to the game. Yes thing have been 'normalized' across the board, but a BM should be concerned about the buffs that they bring-they play a large part to our overall DPS.

At least that is how I understand things.

It might be you are doing things wrong as well. Could be your rotation is slightly off-or are you forgetting to respec your pets when you change specs? (I once did forget to do that and it was a big difference).

Here are some topics that discuss raiding as a BM, as I am not the most competent of raiders nor discussing this, you might find the information that you want here:

http://forums.wow-petopia.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=10366
^Has in it a graphic of raiding and pet buffs to consider-very helpful graphic there.

http://forums.wow-petopia.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=13266

http://forums.wow-petopia.com/viewtopic ... 15&t=13565

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Re: Why is BM so low in dps?

Unread post by Lisaara » Tue Jul 26, 2011 3:04 am

I wrote an article to describe BM raiding.

http://forums.wow-petopia.com/viewtopic ... 11&t=10791

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Re: Why is BM so low in dps?

Unread post by Nightsights » Tue Jul 26, 2011 3:08 am

for raiding, especially progression raiding, its MM > SV > BM


BM is mainly cobra shots, kill command and arcane shots. i haven't played BM since the start of Cata, mainly to lvl my exotic pets. But when you compare 60K crits from both Chimaera shot and Aimed shot, yea, there's just no comparison. BM could use an extra 5% ap buff and a buff to kc.

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Re: Why is BM so low in dps?

Unread post by Dubhsidhe » Tue Jul 26, 2011 6:33 am

Erm. BM is not low on DPS. I was just pugged into a BWD fight tonight, and I was #1 over all. I finished every fight in the first or second spot. I run exclusively as BM. My MM spec is simply for kiting on things like Magmaw adds. BM plays differently than MM or Surv. We are less dependent on Cobra/Steady shot for Focus regen (Thank you Invigoration) so Haste is devalued for us.

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Re: Why is BM so low in dps?

Unread post by Kurenio » Tue Jul 26, 2011 7:43 am

Nightsights wrote:for raiding, especially progression raiding, its MM > SV > BM


BM is mainly cobra shots, kill command and arcane shots. i haven't played BM since the start of Cata, mainly to lvl my exotic pets. But when you compare 60K crits from both Chimaera shot and Aimed shot, yea, there's just no comparison. BM could use an extra 5% ap buff and a buff to kc.
Stop this just stop.... if anything at this point its MM > BM > SV and last patch it was BM > MM > SV how do I know this? I checked there BiS potential and guess what BM pulled about 1-2k more DPS then MM that's why BM was nerfed this patch while MM and SV were given slight buffs. (VIA black arrow and MM mastery) Even with all this I still haven't been out DPS by a MM or survival hunter who didn't horribly out gear me and even then their lead was slight (like 300 dps).

By far BM is somewhat easier to play then the other 2 specs If you know what your doing, but most don't and that's why you see so many bad BM hunters and why we have such a bad rep. with BW I can launch of 2 buffed kill commands and about 8 arcane shots in a row. My cobra shot at this point is going of with 1.3 second cast times. Not to mention I buff the entire raids DPS by 3 percent. Provide buffs and debuffs that would otherwise be missing increasing the raids dps even more. Stop speaking as if this is wrath because it's not.

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Re: Why is BM so low in dps?

Unread post by Nightsights » Tue Jul 26, 2011 3:10 pm

i'm talking end game/current tier raiding, atm its T12. you look at same ilvl hunters, those that are like 6/7 or higher, farming firelands bosses.

take a look at worldoflogs. look at the elapsed time on the fight(make sure they're similar, some ppl fudge it to get ranked), armory those hunters, same ilvl, similar guild firelands progression. you have geared BM hunters with most of the firelands bosses on farm, like beth, shannox, rhyo, baleroc, alysrazor, majordomo, 4-5 kills on each boss. i have to make an educated guess and say that these BM hunters know what they're doing, yet they are lower dps than the same ilvl MM and SV hunters. i looked at both the 10 and 25 man rankings, similar results:

the closest dps gap for BM and MM is 2K and the higher gaps (on most fights) is 6-8K difference.

the difference between SV and MM is even on some fights and up to 2K difference.

BM is certainly viable compared to some of the other classes, but when comparing same ilvl, same skill level, same raid progression hunters, it is MM > SV > BM

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Re: Why is BM so low in dps?

Unread post by Heleos » Tue Jul 26, 2011 3:46 pm

I do around 12K-15K DPS, but the MM hunters do 14K-19K in my guild. Maybe I could use more haste.
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Re: Why is BM so low in dps?

Unread post by CrystalKitten » Tue Jul 26, 2011 4:56 pm

Haste isn't the priority for BM hunters. Kurenio (I believe) has shown LOTS of results from reforge/stat experimentation. I'm at ilvl 361, and am not yet fully 'chanted (no head/shoulders yet), but I've seen readouts of up to 13/14k from other people when I'm playing averagely. Even when I'm slacking off big time (like going through some non-heroics with guildies) and watching tv I often still pull at least 10k.

Also, as others have said, our direct dps isn't always the ultimate guage of our use in the raid... Our pets are capable of buffing the entire group, or debuffing on the mobs. Which increases EVERYONE'S dps.

Also, I'd be skeptical of any site which posts logs. Just because the information is going to be biased. Only those who use the right mods or upload their data will be included. Which could end up in causing skewed results, as maybe for some reason people who like, and are GOOD at BM, don't bother with uploading their information.
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Re: Why is BM so low in dps?

Unread post by Lisaara » Wed Jul 27, 2011 12:00 am

Kurenio wrote:
Nightsights wrote:for raiding, especially progression raiding, its MM > SV > BM


BM is mainly cobra shots, kill command and arcane shots. i haven't played BM since the start of Cata, mainly to lvl my exotic pets. But when you compare 60K crits from both Chimaera shot and Aimed shot, yea, there's just no comparison. BM could use an extra 5% ap buff and a buff to kc.
Stop this just stop.... if anything at this point its MM > BM > SV and last patch it was BM > MM > SV how do I know this? I checked there BiS potential and guess what BM pulled about 1-2k more DPS then MM that's why BM was nerfed this patch while MM and SV were given slight buffs. (VIA black arrow and MM mastery) Even with all this I still haven't been out DPS by a MM or survival hunter who didn't horribly out gear me and even then their lead was slight (like 300 dps).

By far BM is somewhat easier to play then the other 2 specs If you know what your doing, but most don't and that's why you see so many bad BM hunters and why we have such a bad rep. with BW I can launch of 2 buffed kill commands and about 8 arcane shots in a row. My cobra shot at this point is going of with 1.3 second cast times. Not to mention I buff the entire raids DPS by 3 percent. Provide buffs and debuffs that would otherwise be missing increasing the raids dps even more. Stop speaking as if this is wrath because it's not.
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Re: Why is BM so low in dps?

Unread post by Kerafirewing » Wed Jul 27, 2011 10:17 am

Then I must not be doing something right. I only just started going into heroics because of the 4.2 valor gear that are upgrades to what I have. I can actually do 10 - 11k in there when on my game with either Skoll or Loque as my pet. Yet I get slaughtered by SM and MM and still get told by people to go MM (my off spec btw) to get more dps. Raids I have been able to get into have not been worried about pet buffs. Of course, I've not been able to set foot in FL yet as I can't do 20k and I had to leave the guild I was in and go back to my private guild. So no going into BWD or such either. Of course, that also means that I don't get upgrades on gear either. I'm still in some blues which is why I'm going in heroics now. (I hate the heroics and the dungeons in general this xpac so avoid them at all cost prior to now needing 9800 VP to get upgrades) I saw the article Jess did about the BM raiding and her doing like 30k I believe. I wish. If I could do that, I could walk into any raid I wanted and would be hunted down (pardon the pun) to go into things on my server.

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Only been in the most recent heroics (last 2 weeks) that I've NOT run into complete jerk groups. If I could have found these people prior to this, I would have already cleared all the heroics and enjoyed doing so. And speaking of stats, anyone know the crit and haste I should be shooting for? Seeing several different numbers on people and cannot find actual "caps" for either stat anywhere. Maybe I would feel better if I knew I was at least in the range for stats that I need to be and just need those VP for epic gear.
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Re: Why is BM so low in dps?

Unread post by Nightsights » Wed Jul 27, 2011 10:30 am

i enjoy the pet aspect of being a hunter, but my primary focus is end game raiding. i've been raiding since around jul-aug 2006, i go with which ever spec produces the best dps to help my guild to clear current content. checking bis potential, simming, theory crafting, etc that is all good, but its just an estimate, and not actual, live dps. i know there are die hard fans for every spec. once upon a time in BC (Black Temple and Sunwell plateau) BM was the top raiding spec and the die hard MM hunters were crying. SV was top dps during wotlk-Naxx and Ulduar, they cried during The Coliseum and Icecrown Citadel when MM-arpen became the top dps raiding spec; and again during 4.0.6 when they were given the nerfbat.

i raided as SV during 4.0 thru 4.0.6, i did not like the SV nerf, but went to MM main spec. like our animal companions, i too adapted to the changes and continue to raid end game content. of course everyone can play which ever is their favorite spec. i advocate MM not b/c its my favorite spec, not b/c that's what FD or those other sims say, not b/c what EJ says, but b/c of the live, hard data provided by thousands of skilled and geared, end game raiding hunters.

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Re: Why is BM so low in dps?

Unread post by Nightsights » Wed Jul 27, 2011 10:40 am

Kerafirewing wrote: And speaking of stats, anyone know the crit and haste I should be shooting for? Seeing several different numbers on people and cannot find actual "caps" for either stat anywhere. Maybe I would feel better if I knew I was at least in the range for stats that I need to be and just need those VP for epic gear.
generally speaking, crit is our best secondary stat after being hit capped. there is no attainable cap for crit just stack it as much as possible.

haste is there to lower the cast time of our SS/CS. so just whatever is leftover after reforging for hit cap and crit.

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Re: Why is BM so low in dps?

Unread post by Kurenio » Wed Jul 27, 2011 10:55 am

Kerafirewing wrote: I'm currently trying to look at like my haste and crit to see if I need to reforge and change some stuff prior to valor gear.
This... is wrong.... Yes you need crit, but not haste the stat prio you should be following is Agi > Hit to 8% > Crit > Mastery >>>>>> haste.
Nightsights wrote:i enjoy the pet aspect of being a hunter, but my primary focus is end game raiding. i've been raiding since around jul-aug 2006, i go with which ever spec produces the best dps to help my guild to clear current content. checking bis potential, simming, theory crafting, etc that is all good, but its just an estimate, and not actual, live dps. i know there are die hard fans for every spec. once upon a time in BC (Black Temple and Sunwell plateau) BM was the top raiding spec and the die hard MM hunters were crying. SV was top dps during wotlk-Naxx and Ulduar, they cried during The Coliseum and Icecrown Citadel when MM-arpen became the top dps raiding spec; and again during 4.0.6 when they were given the nerfbat.
I've raiding since classic and the only time I did not raid as BM and still be able to top charts was in wrath. That time was the only time I raiding something other then BM because blizzard just made the dps so horrible that it was impossible for anyone to do anything with it.

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Re: Why is BM so low in dps?

Unread post by Shade » Wed Jul 27, 2011 2:31 pm

Kurenio wrote:
Kerafirewing wrote: I'm currently trying to look at like my haste and crit to see if I need to reforge and change some stuff prior to valor gear.
This... is wrong.... Yes you need crit, but not haste the stat prio you should be following is Agi > Hit to 8% > Crit > Mastery >>>>>> haste.
Aha hit needs to stop at 8%? I have a little reforging to do then, thanks :)

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Re: Why is BM so low in dps?

Unread post by CrystalKitten » Wed Jul 27, 2011 2:40 pm

For hit, if you hover over it, it will say how much you need to never miss on certain leveled targets. Example.. non-raiders can probably get away with a bit less (or at least, if you're sticking to pre ZA/ZG randons), as can PVPers.
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Re: Why is BM so low in dps?

Unread post by Nachtwulf » Wed Jul 27, 2011 2:43 pm

Overdoing hit is the biggest error you can make as BM. Get your 8% and worry about other things. Crit and mastery are better for you than haste (though haste is nice since it drops Cobra Shot).

I agree with the 'doing something wrong' thing. All three specs are very close right now (with SV lagging a -bit- behind) but even so. Right now it's 100% all down to play style. If you are good at a spec, that spec will top charts. I am bad at Marks, for example, so my numbers as Marks are easily 5k+ worse than they are as BM no matter what my gear is.

Beast Mastery has a reputation that seems to encourage people to naysay it. Franky... the only time (and I mean the ONLY time) that the Numbers Tweaking Blogs seemed to think it was worth a damn when it was "too easy, too OP, take this and two-button your way to victory". It's not anymore; it takes as much reforging and care as the other specs, just in a different way. You have to know when to use not only your cooldowns but your pet's, which ones to stack and which ones to stagger. If you do it wrong, your numbers will suffer, and often quite markedly.

Honestly, it has very much become a 'play what you want to' class instead of 'play what you have to', and for that I'm actually thankful. Pretty much... I just shrug and blow off people that whine that I'm not playing whatever FOTM is popular right now. I know I can kick their ass on dps, and they usually shut up after I prove it.

As a note, however, much like afflic locks, your -TRASH- dps as BM is going to be a little weak, because unless you like finagling worms... you don't have a hell of a lot to throw out there. But really. Who cares about trash?

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Re: Why is BM so low in dps?

Unread post by Kalliope » Wed Jul 27, 2011 2:49 pm

With a few weaker pieces still, Kera, your dps is still going to be limited, especially if you're going up against people with full 353/359 gear. I'd definitely recommend replacing Skardyn's Grace with Fluid Death the moment you get the JP for it. Getting Fluid Death will give you even more passive hit, so you'll want to reforge off a big chunk of that, as well as hit that you have on other pieces of gear (cloak, legs, boots, etc.). Then you can focus on the other stats. As an engineer, you'll want the tazik shockers Synapse Springs (wrote the wrong name; I meant the springs - thank you, Faf!) on your gloves for extra agility. :D The ap leg enchant is still better for us than the tanking one that has agility. Also, swap up your scope to the x-ray scope; that should help as well. :D

Hopefully changing things up gearwise will help with some of the passive dps issues. :) The rest of it is execution, making sure that you're hitting BW at the right times to max out your output.
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Re: Why is BM so low in dps?

Unread post by Bonita » Wed Jul 27, 2011 3:44 pm

For me Bm is amazing unless its on fights where my pet is going to be moving around too much.
Fights in the Firelands like Shannox and Lord Rhyolith are horrible for bm to me.
If you ever get to do Firelands you'll deffinately love bm on Baleroc. Only one thing to hit :)

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