The incomprehensibility of the bat nerf...

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Galaxy
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Re: The incomprehensibility of the bat nerf...

#21 Unread post by Galaxy » Wed May 08, 2013 3:47 pm

So, from what I can figure out from reading the forums and being whined at in bgs, there's a stun lock thing that we..apparently..can do...

Goes something like scatter shot - silencing shot - intimidation - pet stun/cc

rinse and repeat

That's what I'm *hearing*. That's not what I, particularly, do. I have an odd play-style in pvp anyway. But, that's, at least, what I'm gathering is causing all this.

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Re: The incomprehensibility of the bat nerf...

#22 Unread post by ashdawn » Wed May 08, 2013 3:57 pm

tbh hunter could do 5k dps next patch and i'd still love it and play it, but why dont they nerf mages or pally heals, we pop all of our cooldowns on a healing pally, it does nothing it takes about 4 people to take down 1 healer nevermind 3 people who keep bubbling the flag carrier... >.<

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Re: The incomprehensibility of the bat nerf...

#23 Unread post by Funk » Wed May 08, 2013 4:13 pm

Assuming they are planning to nerf other pet CC:

I guess it's not too bad to have the cooldown increased but... all these changes seem very, uh, impulsive (almost). I don't know what it's like to play hunter in RBGs or Arena, so I'm a bit ignorant in that sense. It just feels like hunters are being nerfed or buffed or whatever without any real vision of what they want overall. I mean I read the post for 5.2 where they explained their vision of classes and how they see and want them but with all the changes this patch I am not so sure.

I don't really do anything competitively in this game so changes don't affect me so much but it all does seem a bit weird to me nonetheless.

Otherwise (ie. in the case that they truly are only nerfing bats):

... why bats? :|

Oh, maybe this means they will introduce the shiny new bat model soon as tamable beasts and this nerf is just to uh... um... yeah I got nothing.

Poor bats.
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Re: The incomprehensibility of the bat nerf...

#24 Unread post by Castile » Wed May 08, 2013 9:31 pm

Why are thay nerfing a hunter stun of all things? Monks/Rogues are like 10x worse...its just beyond me. Seems like someone in blizz just really hates our class for some reason :/

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Re: The incomprehensibility of the bat nerf...

#25 Unread post by Myzou » Wed May 08, 2013 11:01 pm

This is most likely the start of the nerf of pet CC abilities so they can revert the change on DR on Scatter Shot they mentioned on twitter.

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Re: The incomprehensibility of the bat nerf...

#26 Unread post by Bowno » Thu May 09, 2013 1:47 am

Galaxy wrote:So, from what I can figure out from reading the forums and being whined at in bgs, there's a stun lock thing that we..apparently..can do...

Goes something like scatter shot - silencing shot - intimidation - pet stun/cc

rinse and repeat

That's what I'm *hearing*. That's not what I, particularly, do. I have an odd play-style in pvp anyway. But, that's, at least, what I'm gathering is causing all this.

So what you're saying is... Only rogues are allowed to do that. Got it.

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Re: The incomprehensibility of the bat nerf...

#27 Unread post by Slickrock » Thu May 09, 2013 11:24 am

Castile wrote:Why are thay nerfing a hunter stun of all things? Monks/Rogues are like 10x worse...its just beyond me. Seems like someone in blizz just really hates our class for some reason :/
Roll a paladin, then you'll have Metzen hating you... :lol:
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Re: The incomprehensibility of the bat nerf...

#28 Unread post by Myzou » Thu May 09, 2013 3:00 pm

Bowno wrote:
Galaxy wrote:So, from what I can figure out from reading the forums and being whined at in bgs, there's a stun lock thing that we..apparently..can do...

Goes something like scatter shot - silencing shot - intimidation - pet stun/cc

rinse and repeat

That's what I'm *hearing*. That's not what I, particularly, do. I have an odd play-style in pvp anyway. But, that's, at least, what I'm gathering is causing all this.

So what you're saying is... Only rogues are allowed to do that. Got it.
Rogues can stun twice in a row. Hunters, if skilled enough, can actually completely shut down a caster. Period. There's a reason for these nerfs. They have a horrible impact on PvE for BM, but they really are needed for PvP.

But, considering I've never seen a hunter use a bat, no one here has mentioned using a bat... why are you guys complaining?

It's pretty obvious all hunter pet stuns/incapacitates are going to be nerfed. They said so on twitter like 2 weeks ago. In return, they're removing the DR on Scatter Shot and Freezing Trap they added earlier. Now, if the patch goes live and there's still DR and this nerf still exists, THEN you can go WTF. :P

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Re: The incomprehensibility of the bat nerf...

#29 Unread post by Ziarre » Thu May 09, 2013 7:56 pm

Yeah, it's not terribly hard for a hunter to completely tear apart a caster at the moment. Topped the scoreboard of a battleground I'd never even seen before just by focusing on casters (mostly healers), not long back--and I only PvP if I need honor points for transmog pieces, if that tells you anything.
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Re: The incomprehensibility of the bat nerf...

#30 Unread post by SpiritBinder » Thu May 09, 2013 9:40 pm

Myzou wrote:
Bowno wrote: So what you're saying is... Only rogues are allowed to do that. Got it.


Rogues can stun twice in a row. Hunters, if skilled enough, can actually completely shut down a caster. Period. There's a reason for these nerfs. They have a horrible impact on PvE for BM, but they really are needed for PvP.

But, considering I've never seen a hunter use a bat, no one here has mentioned using a bat... why are you guys complaining?

It's pretty obvious all hunter pet stuns/incapacitates are going to be nerfed. They said so on twitter like 2 weeks ago. In return, they're removing the DR on Scatter Shot and Freezing Trap they added earlier. Now, if the patch goes live and there's still DR and this nerf still exists, THEN you can go WTF. :P


Rogues can stun twice in a row.

(While still maintaining dps on the target)

Hunters, if skilled enough, can actually completely shut down a caster. Period.

(Yes they can shut down a caster, but only DPS during a pet stun and silencing shot (not intimidation anymore as now you have to choose between it or silencing... Scatter/freezing/poo fling/Wyvern/Lullaby all break on damage. Don’t forget Rouges have Disarm, Garrotte and Cloak all while being able to DPS, Blind, Gouge, Sap as instant CC that breaks on damage.. and then Prep to reset everything. And yes we have readiness, which is 1/2 the problem for all these nerfs imo, but that’s another topic.)

But, considering I've never seen a hunter use a bat, no one here has mentioned using a bat... why are you guys complaining?
(Which proves this threads point.... "The incomprehensibility of the bat nerf..." If not one is using them, why on earth nerf them more? (Oh and btw, unfortunately no one uses them because other pet families have very similar stuns on shorter cool downs, making them inferior already. It’s a real shame they can’t just do a bit of a pass and even out these pets. ½ of them are still different due to pets that used to be a particular family. Just compare a (Previously Tenacity Only) Gorillas “Pummel” (which can be set to auto cast btw) and a (Previously Cunning Only) Nether Rays “Nether Shock” and you will see what I mean… But again, that’s another topic.)

It's pretty obvious all hunter pet stuns/incapacitates are going to be nerfed. They said so on twitter like 2 weeks ago.
(They already have, they have removed the 30% pet cool down reduction from BM, this bat nerf is in addition, hence the confusion.

As for tearing casters apart, yes we do well versus casters in PVP if we know what we are doing. You know Rock can beat Scissors easier, Scissors can beat Paper easier, Paper beats rock easier. Most classes have others they are strong and weak against. If you take this however into Rated PVP, we no longer tear them apart unless very lucky and have all our cool downs available.. even then.

All in All, this is DATAMINED information for Build 16924 that will be deployed to the PTR realms soon. It's not even live yet on the PTR and could just be error. If this information is correct however, I find the decision for the nerf perplexing for the reasons that they have just nerfed (BM) CC and the choice of the pet they have targeted. Also with the new bat skins they have just designed ( http://forums.wow-petopia.com/viewtopic ... t&start=20 Look for Qraljar's post down the bottom ) it would be a real shame to have a potentially new pet model already made to feel even less, due to its family ability being made so unattractive.)

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Re: The incomprehensibility of the bat nerf...

#31 Unread post by Wain » Fri May 10, 2013 12:27 am

Games that try to harmonize between PVE and PVP play often end up with a messy model that feels contrived and upsets people on both sides. We already knew that in the early 90s, but they still try 20 years later :P
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Re: The incomprehensibility of the bat nerf...

#32 Unread post by SpiritBinder » Fri May 10, 2013 12:38 am

Wain wrote:Games that try to harmonize between PVE and PVP play often end up with a messy model that feels contrived and upsets people on both sides. We already knew that in the early 90s, but they still try 20 years later :P

This! ^

I have hopes that for the next expansion (and yes I know it might suck as it will be another large upheavals within game) that they finally bite the bullet and just make abilities truly adapt appropriately depending on weather you’re playing PvE or PvP. Only then will we be able to try and balance classes with each other and stop the knee jerk reactions and their subsequent following ramifications. One can only hope...
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Re: The incomprehensibility of the bat nerf...

#33 Unread post by Gimlion » Fri May 10, 2013 12:40 am

Wain wrote:Games that try to harmonize between PVE and PVP play often end up with messy model that feels contrived and upsets the people on both sides. We already knew that in the early 90s, but they still try 20 years later :P
I think that a very dedicated, very intelligent, very LARGE and very subscriber-listening company could do marvels in harmonizing the 2. However, Blizzard has so many divisions, that no one team has the resources to fulfill this necessity. They cannot possibly see all the feedback, spend every second they have on the game, and function at Einstein levels 24/7, especially with teams of 10-15 (What I'm assuming Blizzard has working on any one project/area).

Furthermore, and what really grinds me, is not that the attempts at harmonizing, as they are noble (silly, but noble attempts none-the-less), but that they clearly have the capabilities to dictate the way some abilities work based on location and situations. Why, Why, WHY can they not use this technology to separate the two very different play-styles? Even in a PvP world, you could have the PvP-based spell-effects, and have them switch when entering a raid, dungeon or scenario. They do not take advantage of the technology they pretty much pioneered, causing sloppy patches, seemingly random nerfs/buffs, and out of the wind claims of certain classes OP-Leetness.

Another thing that Blizzard does that extremely aggravates me to no end: nerfing certain classes/specs to the ground when they get to top of certain charts, and ignoring the classes that are consistently great, but not top. Examples? Well, the beast cleave nerf, this current "Hunter Stun-lock" nerf, the LK BM nerf. Just to name a few home-hitters. None of these changes actually fixed anything, they just break and obliterate certain abilities/combos that were strong. I can understand tweaks to even out numbers and capabilities, but that never seems to be the case, left and right people see monstrous nerfs to one class/spec, and giant buffs to certain others. All the while barely-under-top classes/specs sit comfortably, not fearing anything.

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Re: The incomprehensibility of the bat nerf...

#34 Unread post by Castile » Fri May 10, 2013 1:40 am

SpiritBinder wrote:
Wain wrote:Games that try to harmonize between PVE and PVP play often end up with a messy model that feels contrived and upsets people on both sides. We already knew that in the early 90s, but they still try 20 years later :P

This! ^

I have hopes that for the next expansion (and yes I know it might suck as it will be another large upheavals within game) that they finally bite the bullet and just make abilities truly adapt appropriately depending on weather you’re playing PvE or PvP. Only then will we be able to try and balance classes with each other and stop the knee jerk reactions and their subsequent following ramifications. One can only hope...
Thats so logical! Just make so once you enter a BG/Arena certain things turn on and off....don't they do that with arenas now anyway? Why is that so hard to do now??

Fine take away the CC but give us back the ability for pets to ignore AOE so we can do pve things more easily again...i'd like to solo warbringer plz kgo!

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Re: The incomprehensibility of the bat nerf...

#35 Unread post by Myzou » Fri May 10, 2013 3:17 am

Wain wrote:Games that try to harmonize between PVE and PVP play often end up with a messy model that feels contrived and upsets people on both sides. We already knew that in the early 90s, but they still try 20 years later :P
One of the reasons I loved FFXI until they raised the level cap.

They has pretty much no PVP, and when they added PvP mini games, they did no balancing because of it. It was strictly there for fun. If you let a summoner's pet get too close to you, you'd be one shot. People complained, but because the niche of a summoner in FFXI (at least back then) was extremely high burst damage, they didn't alter it, or it'd have made summoners unplayable, and as SMNS had to struggle through 69 of the 75 levels because their strong attacks came at level 70, and prior to that, they were ghetto healers by using a white mage subjob, no new SMNs would ever have been made if they nerfed it for PvP.

More companies need to think like SE did with FFXI for the first 7 years. (Aside from adding world bosses intended to be fought for 24 hours by multiple groups, with only one of said groups intended to get items that dropped) Though, the fact they introduced not one, but two world bosses with secrets to killing them that no one legitimately figured out until they were nerfed (Absolute Virtue lasted undefeated [without glitches/exploits] for 6 years until they released a video showing the secret to killing him, and they raised the level cap)

Not to mention they had 20 unique classes, (2 more added a couple months ago) all that played EXTREMELY different from each other, aside from Scholar, which was White Mage and Black Mage rolled into one essentially, but better.

Whereas in WoW, there's 11 classes, and only a couple classes feel different between specs.

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Re: The incomprehensibility of the bat nerf...

#36 Unread post by AdamSavage » Fri May 10, 2013 4:28 am

Gimlion wrote:Why, Why, WHY can they not use this technology to separate the two very different play-styles? Even in a PvP world, you could have the PvP-based spell-effects, and have them switch when entering a raid, dungeon or scenario. They do not take advantage of the technology they pretty much pioneered, causing sloppy patches, seemingly random nerfs/buffs, and out of the wind claims of certain classes OP-Leetness.
We should ask them this come the next Developer Q&A. You already see some spells behaving differently in pvp, so why can't they do it for all pvp related spells.
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Re: The incomprehensibility of the bat nerf...

#37 Unread post by Slickrock » Sat May 11, 2013 12:57 pm

Still amusing that they made BM the burst and control spec, and now are nerfing both those areas to hell, while back in the day MM was the burst and control spec, and they left it that way for years.

I'm wondering how pedestrian and weak they will make BM burst and control?
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Re: The incomprehensibility of the bat nerf...

#38 Unread post by Myzou » Sun May 12, 2013 7:22 pm

GC just confirmed they reverted the DR between Scatter Shot and Trap due to the nerf of BM pet stuns.

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Re: The incomprehensibility of the bat nerf...

#39 Unread post by SpiritBinder » Sun May 12, 2013 9:28 pm

Myzou wrote:GC just confirmed they reverted the DR between Scatter Shot and Trap due to the nerf of BM pet stuns.

There was no mention of stuns, he only tweeted "We nerfed some BM pet CC instead." This is in relation to them removing the pasive 30% BM pet reduction on their abilities. (Though please note they have adjusted some pet DPS ability, such as rabid, burrow, etc. as to try and prevent a nerf to BM’s PvE DPS, but it pretty much covers all their CC abilities)

As another has also stated, sadly they nerfed more than "some" pet CC. Other things like RoS, Bullheaded, Cower & Spirit Mend were heavily nerfed too. Whether they come back to these as adjust the numbers of these, we don’t know yet.

But that said, back on topic.... How does this explain, The incomprehensibility of the bat nerf...

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Re: The incomprehensibility of the bat nerf...

#40 Unread post by Castile » Sun May 12, 2013 11:53 pm

SpiritBinder wrote:As another has also stated, sadly they nerfed more than "some" pet CC. Other things like RoS, Bullheaded, Cower & Spirit Mend were heavily nerfed too. Whether they come back to these as adjust the numbers of these, we don’t know yet.
So they also nerfing our pet survivability again?? (Thats what i took from those nerfs anyway) Gah...so they only want warlocks and DK's to be able to solo more recent content...mmm not happy Jan.

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