I am worried for my class.

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Albain
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I am worried for my class.

Unread post by Albain » Sun Nov 22, 2015 10:31 pm

I like a lot of what I see. I missed surv being melee, MM being supersniper sounds fun.. but I'm worried.

Pet healing has taken a huge hit as of right now without glyphs, literally half the healing I'm used to. It may change. Pet tanking has taken a huge hit without glyphed Misdirect. That may also change. Camo is gone for the spec I've loved since BC, and I use it daily. I don't think that will change. Adaption is suspiciously missing from anywhere. Why do I have one single gun attack, when my artifact is a gun, unless I talent for the /single other option/ to give me another one that isn't an AOE?

Where is Glaive Toss? Where is Spirit Bond? If I don't want more AOE, why is my only option 'more objects that fill up my screen'. Will groups and raids reject BM due to the 10 million extra beasts in melee range cluttering everything up? Then throw Stampede on top of it.

Are we being brought back into line with the 'survivability' (read: lack of it) of pure DPS classes instead of the incredible soloing power I've loved all this time?

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Re: I am worried for my class.

Unread post by SetsunaChan » Sun Nov 22, 2015 11:14 pm

I know what you mean but since this is very early beta and not all that's been datamind hopefully what's missing will be added back or after good feed back from the player base will fix things up.

As for missing stuff that I can kind of answer about, Glaive Toss "Seems" to be a base ability to all hunter specs but only mmo champ has it on their talent calc. Adaptation has become a pvp talent for the pvp spec they are doing now http://beta.wowhead.com/talent-pvp#EwA .

The lose of the major glyphs specially misdirection and the mend pet it gonna be harsh of a lose. :? But for the too many pets and not allow BM to raid? Bologna!!! Wanna know why? Unholy dk's are basically going to be the same summoning droves of ghouls, skeletons and gargoyles. So if they're going to be all upset with bm hunters may as well not allow unholy dks either. :P

We can only hope that things will change/ not all we are seeing right now is the final thought.

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Re: I am worried for my class.

Unread post by Albain » Sun Nov 22, 2015 11:23 pm

Too many times have I heard 'it's only beta' only to have that specific thing go live. We won't know of course til we actually get in what's going on or how our survival feels. And how our Survival feels. But it makes me no less worried that suddenly hunters aren't going to be anywhere near as good at killing things solo anymore..

It's noteworthy that Adaption on the PVP talent isn't even remotely like the Adaption that's gone missing. The PVP talent removes impairing effects. The missing one gives your active pet Spiked Collar, Roar of Sacrifice, etc, and makes it muuuch better at tackling mobs and tanking and not dying.

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SetsunaChan
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Re: I am worried for my class.

Unread post by SetsunaChan » Sun Nov 22, 2015 11:36 pm

Oh I know exactly what you mean hence why I have not pre-bought or ordered legion at all. I'll wait until I know 100% I'm spending money on it.

I'm only trying to help you least with informing on what has changed in abilities weather it's a rename or a total change of what it once was. While the pvp adaptation is nothing like it live counter part I'm sure it's the same thing. Good example of this is deterrence is gone replaced by Aspect of the Turtle which acts like vanilla/BC deterrence.

Just like I'm humbly aware of blizz totally revamping specs to the point they are no longer the same as they once were I've been playing wow since late vanilla early bc. I've seen stuff go through a lot of changes. Heck a lot of the skills some classes in legion are stuff long removed shortly before WotLK.

All I'm saying is try not to stress too much yet. Once Beta is available to the mass and it's still the same then make the big stink about the changes.

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Re: I am worried for my class.

Unread post by Lupen202 » Sun Nov 22, 2015 11:47 pm

I am worried about some of the changes but all we can do is wait and express any concerns we have. It's not even beta yet, technically, and we'll still see lots of changes.

Concerning mend pet though perhaps it can be added back as a minor glyph? Or they could just increase the healing done by the spell by default.

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Albain
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Re: I am worried for my class.

Unread post by Albain » Sun Nov 22, 2015 11:56 pm

At least Turtle and Deterrence share a purpose of being a defensive cooldown, as opposed to Adaption and Adaption, which is extreme pet buffs vs ... another master's call. I'm hoping they'll just bake in the mend pet glyphs to mend pet, as well as misdirect, but I'm skeptical that they'll decide to given how much they've removed by way of healing ourselves or our pets.

I'll be stressing, especially since Beta could launch at any time, and pretending I'm not thinking about it for a couple days or a week isn't going to change much for me. I really, really don't want to have to roll and gear up a stinkin' blood DK just to have the soloing power I'm used to. I've played this class for ten years, suddenly realizing I might have to look at another one just to do the same things is ... yeah.

I wish I could trust Blizzard to not botch it up.

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SetsunaChan
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Re: I am worried for my class.

Unread post by SetsunaChan » Mon Nov 23, 2015 12:17 am

That's very true about the turtle/deterrence change. Hopefully they don't botch bm too much, and I'm hoping enough hunters can convince blizz to bake in the misdirect glyph and mending to the actual spells that would make a huge difference.

Though relooking at the choose a talent tree for bm I did notice this. http://www.wowhead.com/spell=191384 That might be our consolation replacement for pve adaptation. Basically It turns kill command for tenacity pets into not only an attack but incoming damage reducer as well.

here's hoping though.

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Re: I am worried for my class.

Unread post by Equeon » Mon Nov 23, 2015 12:42 am

Blizzard promised that the Legion class updates would bring new life to "class fantasy", differentiating between homogenized specs and allowing you to customize your character the way you want to play. They claimed that the wealth of new talents would give you a lot of choices, both flavor-wise ("My rogue is a deft and agile fencer" vs. "My rogue is a hardy, honorless pirate") as well as gameplay-wise ("My warrior overcomes enemies with raw damage" vs. "My warrior keeps overcomes enemies by keeping them down or out of the fight").

You could choose between passive or active talents, allowing newer or more casual players to enjoy a simple rotation at the cost of some damage/utility, and experienced players to enjoy a more varied playstyle with higher numbers at the cost of greater difficulty.

Unfortunately, to me this has not been reflected at all with the (ADMITTEDLY UNFINISHED/UNPOLISHED/INCOMPLETE) datamined information.

Rotation Pruning.
By the numbers, BM loses four rotational abilities- Arcane Shot, Focus Fire, Kill Shot, and Explosive Trap.
One new ability is added, "Aspect of the Wild", which increases focus gain and gives you and your pet a crit bonus for 10 seconds, with a 2-minute cooldown.
Talent choices provide a maximum of one new rotational ability, Chimera Shot.

So by default - there are 3 less abilities in BM's rotation, at minimum 2 less abilities.

Managing stacks of Frenzy and timing Focus Fire with other cooldowns has been replaced with an on-activate ability with Aspect of the Wild, increasing the player's control over these aspects while decreasing complexity and required player skill.

In addition, Bestial Wrath no longer breaks the pet out of CC or lessens the focus cost of abilities, instead becoming a flat damage buff with no other qualities.

Utility Pruning.
As for situational abilities, BM loses Aspect of the Pack, Camouflage, Freezing Trap, Ice Trap, Master's Call, and Tranquilizing Shot as well as the talent choices of Spirit Bond and Adaptation.
That's a total of 6 removed baseline abilities and 2 removed talent choices.

This extreme loss of utility is a little disturbing, especially since nothing has been datamined thus far that would even attempt to provide a replacement for any of those lost abilities.

Glyph Pruning.
Major glyphs are gone in Legion. This means that the typical BM glyph choices of Animal Bond, Greater Mending, Misdirection, and Endless Wrath will be lost. Without future replacements for this utility, BM's soloing power will be crippled.

With all of these changes so far, you can already see a trend towards a weaker, and subjectively less interesting, BM hunter. But before the final judgment, let's take a look at that talent system again, which is supposed to be the saving grace for all of Legion's pruning.

Talent Choices.
Level 15
Decreased cooldown for DB ~ Cobra Shot does more damage with more DBs ~ DBs generate more focus.
All three are passive abilities that affect Dire Beast.

Level 60
DBs do AoE damage on summon ~ Existing Exotic Munitions talent ~ Chimera Shot generates 10-20 focus based on number of enemies hit.

I do like the one active ability. I'll definitely be getting that one.

Level 75
Crit chance on targets above 80% health ~ BW does 20% damage ~ Existing Blink Strikes talent.

All passive abilities.

Level 90
Existing Murder of Crows talent ~ Existing Barrage talent ~ Volley: shoot in an area for 6 seconds.

Cool, we get Volley back! Unfortunately, we can't have this and Barrage or AMoC, so it will still replace one of those in the rotation.
The available choices here are one of the few that I'm OK with.

Level 100
Existing Stampede talent ~ Cobra shot has 25% chance to reset Kill Command during BW ~ Kill Command gives a unique additional effect based on the pet's spec.

The one new ability that I really liked... the one ability that gives the feeling of a beastmaster with an adaptable and highly-trained pet... is exclusive with Stampede, probably the single most visually impressive and truly "Beastmaster-like" skill hunters can have.
Pretty disheartening.

"Wait!" you plead. "You've forgotten! Artifacts will grant some new abilities as you upgrade them!"

Good catch! I very much hope that the Artifact will add more complexity to Legion's BM. The only thing is, some of these abilities might not be unlocked until months into the expansion, or even behind raiding or PvP. And do you only want to feel like a complete class after having to kill dozens of bosses, grind reps, and put some little mark into a slot in a gun?
What will happen to the class when we're no longer using artifacts after Legion?

And it's not over yet! From what we know so far...

Buff Pruning.
In Legion, all raid buffs will be removed.

WoD already brought the loss of pet CC. Outside of exotic pets, only a few select pet families have an ability besides a passive raid buff.
What exactly will these pets have with the loss of all raid buffs?

Which leads us to...

Loss of Class Fantasy.
With all of these changes added up, it sounds like Blizzard has accomplished the opposite of their intended goal with class revamps.
Far from having a greater sense of identity and class fantasy, to me, BM doesn't really feel like a beastmaster hunter anymore.

The feeling of having a very strong, nigh-unstoppable pet that you keep alive: gone. (See the loss of Adaptation and the mentioned glyphs above.)
The feeling of overcoming enemies through a combined powerful bond: gone. (See the loss of Cobra Strikes/Frenzy/Focus fire. No new abilities involve Hunter and Pet interaction, instead focusing on random, uncontrollable, limited duration Dire Beast summons.)
The feeling of being inseparable from your pet, that you'll help each other out of even the toughest situations: gone. (See the loss of Spirit Bond/Master's Call/BW breaking pet CC.)
The feeling of mastering a variety of beasts with different strengths and weaknesses: gone. (See the loss of raid buffs.)
The feeling of being an actual hunter besides purely having a pet: gone. (See every removed previously shared hunter ability.)

While Survival, strangely enough, gets multiple abilities about sharing damage and buffs with your pet, BM has become entirely focused on summoning dire beasts.
Where Survival hunters get special traps, harpoons, nets, sentries, and throwing axes and Marksmanship hunters get acrobatic flips, skeletal minions, and powershots, Beast Mastery just gets choices between existing talents or multiple passive effects.

Nearly every BM single talent added does nothing other than add a slight buff to Dire Beast or Bestial Wrath... it's like Blizzard couldn't think of anything to create a Beast Mastery fantasy other than "LOTS OF RANDOM PETS" and "GET MAD."

I hope I'm making huge assumptions about incomplete data. But this is Blizzard, a company with a known history of letting poorly received changes through to official release despite player feedback. Saying "it's only beta/it's not even beta" doesn't really help.
So trust me when I say... I can't wait for Beta to come out and prove me wrong.

t;dr: losing too many abilities and too much complexity, there's too much focus on Dire Beast, I personally feel decreased instead of increased class identity from what we know so far.

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PrimalTazza
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Re: I am worried for my class.

Unread post by PrimalTazza » Mon Nov 23, 2015 2:33 am

BM has had the least amount of details released so far, I feel like they're still trying to get things "just right." This is the perfect time for some feedback to help polish it off. I myself am a little worried about the lack of complexity, but talents/artifacts should shake it up a little and give us what we need. If they do go with the "unleash the hounds" route, I hope we get a little bit of Rexxar-flavor variety. Maybe a sort of eagle airstrike? Use it on a target, after two or three seconds an eagle swoops out of the air and gouges the area you marked in a line/cone centered/focused on the main target. It'd be a fun little AoE/cleave and break up the monotony if nothing else.

Really hope we get more than just cobra shot, though. Maybe something liiike... rabid shot? You fire a shot that flies, hits, then comes back around and hits again a few more times like a rabies-infested, living bullet. The number of times it hits increased by how many cobra shots you used prior to activating it, or hell, even based on how many dire beasts you have. If you go that route, maybe it hits the target, bounces away, hits a dire beast and gives it a mini-enrage, bounces back to target, then back to another dire beast... and so on until it enrages all of them or hits a cap on how many it can enrage.

I'd also settle for a bloodthirst-esque shot to help solve the lack of survivability. Predator Shot or something, you do a little damage, restore a little health for you and your pet, maybe put a debuff on the enemy similar to how the old leeching poison used to work. Hit the enemy and gain health for it.

edit: I may just copy-paste most of this to another thread since this isn't really the "let's brainstorm" one
Last edited by PrimalTazza on Mon Nov 23, 2015 2:44 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: I am worried for my class.

Unread post by Wain » Mon Nov 23, 2015 2:43 am

Your concerns could be quite valid, and I also agree if you say "it's only Beta" for too long then you'll wake up one day to find it's at release and nothing has changed.

However... it's not actually beta yet. What we've seen so far are the scraps of data that MMO-Champion and Wowhead have taken from Blizzard's servers without being offered them. It's like someone is preparing a feast for you behind closed doors, yet a couple of people have let themselves in the side entrance and are reporting the cake ingredients, which are still not assembled and half the layers are missing.

As I said, your concerns may be quite valid, but not everything is uploaded yet. Hopefully it's only a few more days (or hours) and we'll know for sure!
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Re: I am worried for my class.

Unread post by Quiv » Mon Nov 23, 2015 8:45 am

Pet healing and soloing are a big part of my gameplay in general, let alone my hunter's. If I get into beta (and by Rhonin's beard I will get in), it will be something I personally am very attentive to.

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Re: I am worried for my class.

Unread post by Doc Privas » Mon Nov 23, 2015 10:27 am

Yeah, I'm a bit worried too. I'm already playing warlock more than hunter and I plan on maining either my lock or my mage in Legion.

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Re: I am worried for my class.

Unread post by pop » Mon Nov 23, 2015 12:02 pm

I've been BM since TBC, and looking at the changes for Hunters in Legion, Surv seems to be the most interesting spec so far, followed by MM. Heck, even OUTLAW looks better than BM. But then again I want more pets and pets' actions for BM, but I doubt every other bm hunters want the same as I do.

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Re: I am worried for my class.

Unread post by SetsunaChan » Mon Nov 23, 2015 12:22 pm

Going to agree with Wain on this. Most of the changes to bm I'm ok with but their are definite concerns. I have now seen what so far has been datamind but once we can give feedback I definitely will be giving my mind to blizz. I just hope they listen this time.
pop wrote:I've been BM since TBC, and looking at the changes for Hunters in Legion, Surv seems to be the most interesting spec so far, followed by MM. Heck, even OUTLAW looks better than BM. But then again I want more pets and pets' actions for BM, but I doubt every other bm hunters want the same as I do.
pop wrote:OUTLAW
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8ju_10NkGY

I'm sorry on that last bit, couldn't help myself with that. :lol:

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Re: I am worried for my class.

Unread post by Albain » Tue Nov 24, 2015 4:19 pm

I admit, and it might be silly of me, I do not like Dire Beast in its current incarnation. And with no hint from Inscription that we might finally get the variety of cosmetic glyphs others enjoy (especially since they said no new glyphs, which is exceedingly disheartening when we have so few cosmetic glyphs to begin with), I probably will continue to not like it. Somehow spamming as many random generic mobs from the zone as I possibly can doesn't sound BM-ish.

Summoning my own tamed pets, now.. would feel more BM-ish.

If I want Barrage or Volley, I am never going to see a pet beyond the one I have summoned, full stop. Although we were 'promised' (read: not promised at all but it got mentioned as a possible talent) that Dire Beast could instead summon a pet from our stable, there's no sign of this going in anywhere. Which is sad. I have no connection with the wild things. I have a connection with the pets I carefully stalked and tamed after much thought over whether or not they'd match my transmog. (I have matching issues okay)

I don't want to see some generic wild animal show up. What thrill is there in seeing Brown Bear #3433 show up when I have a dozen different spirit beasts sitting and gathering dust, or the runed dogs, or the countless other pets we've been allowed to tame?

Once beta opens, if I can wiggle in in some fashion, I fully intend to provide this feedback (and some of the other feedback above) in the HOPES that they might give Beastmasters more than spamming generic wild animals as a vast bulk of our damage. Let me at least spam my own pets.

Edit: I would also dearly like some talents or options to extend the life/power of the CURRENT summoned Dire Beast as opposed to just getting a new one or two or five or however many we can sneak in with a lucky crit chain. Having hoards of NPCs following me around that I can't control isn't something I enjoy, they tend to ..uh, cause disaster whenever they randomly run off to go do something I didn't tell them to, and with no way to stop them.. yeah. It's like having four or five Aedas instead of just one.

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