A little question about race leaders (possible spoilers)

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Karathyriel
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A little question about race leaders (possible spoilers)

#1 Unread post by Karathyriel » Thu Aug 11, 2016 1:08 am

So I browsed YouTube randomly and stumbled over a video, a cinematic of the upcoming Legion.

We all know that THE ALLIANCE used to be led by a group of people before King Varian Wrynn came back to take over.
Everyone should know by now that Varian will die and his son Anduin takes over.

Alliance races:
  • Varian, and now Anduin, serve as the leader of the humans.
  • The Council of Three Hammers now rules the dwarves since Magni Bronzebeard was crystalized.
  • The draenei are still ruled by Valen, as they always have been.
  • The night elves still have their leaders Tyrande Whisperwind and now also Archdruid Malfurion Stormrage.
  • Gelbin Mekkatorque rules the gnomes.
  • The worgen have King Genn Greymane.
  • The alliance pandaren are led by Aysa Cloudsinger.
THE HORDE has been led by Thrall. Garrosh has been named his successor before he turned bad guy and was then replaced by Vol'Jin. Vol'jin now dies and, although he never trusted her, names Sylvanas Windrunner as his successor.
(And it didn't seem to be a faked death in the cinematic!)

Horde races:
  • Blood Elves are led by Lor'themar Theron.
  • Trade Prince Gallywix still rules the goblins.
  • Horde pandaren are led by Ji Firepaw.
  • Baine Bloodhoof rules the Tauren.
  • Sylanas Windrunner serves also as leader for the forsaken.
  • The orcs are now led by... who?
  • Have the trolls named a new leader after Vol'Jin died?
As far as I know, now TWO horde races are without a leader.
How can this be? Has Chris Metzen no love for the Horde anymore?
Or did I miss something?

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Re: A little question about race leaders (possible spoilers)

#2 Unread post by Arwyn » Thu Aug 11, 2016 1:47 am

No you haven't missed anything. Orcs are without a racial leader and the trolls are now without a racial leader. Hopefully Blizz will address it after Legion comes out proper. But I'm looking at it that since Sylvanas is the Warchief for the entire Horde, and no ones stepped forward/recommended she let someone else lead the orcs and trolls, she's now the de facto racial leader for both of them.

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Re: A little question about race leaders (possible spoilers)

#3 Unread post by Karathyriel » Thu Aug 11, 2016 4:11 am

I thought so and it makes me sad as the Orcs are the foundation of the Horde and all other races joined in later.
And, let's face it, there is no cooler race to roleplay than Trolls! ;) :headbang:

The Forsaken weren't planned as playable race in the first place and Sylvanas herself worries me a bit.
She was a night elf, right? She never had any feuds with any of the alliances races.
Her only hatred went against Arthas, or better: the Lichking, who is dead and destroyed.
What if she still has warm and fuzzy feelings about the Alliance? (Well, as warm and fuzzy as undead feelings can be!)
How can she be Horde Warchief? What was that vision the spirits granted Vol'Jin?

I'm really concerned about the Horde going down to pieces, so the "good guys" can prevail in the end.

One thing is for sure, as long as I roleplay my Horde toons, not one of them will ever call Anduin "king" or "high king" even. :ugeek:

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Re: A little question about race leaders (possible spoilers)

#4 Unread post by Nefretiti » Thu Aug 11, 2016 4:53 am

Sylvanas was a high elf I think, Arthas raised her as a banshee initially then somehow she got a coporeal body.. Don't remember all the facts.
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Re: A little question about race leaders (possible spoilers)

#5 Unread post by Xota » Thu Aug 11, 2016 5:14 am

Sylvanas doesn't have "warm and fuzzy" feelings for the alliance. She's actually the most hostile towards the alliance or the current horde leaders. Perhaps the loa thought having a master tactician leading the horde against the legion would be the best course of action.

Varok Saurfang is the leader of the orcs. I don't know who is leading the Darkspears, maybe Rokhan, Vanira, or Volrath.

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Re: A little question about race leaders (possible spoilers)

#6 Unread post by Keilden » Thu Aug 11, 2016 7:34 am

Griftah for troll leader 2016!

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Re: A little question about race leaders (possible spoilers)

#7 Unread post by Lisaara » Thu Aug 11, 2016 8:44 am

Rokhan is my guess. Griftah isn't really leadership material. Rokhan was basically Vol'jin's right hand man since WC3.

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Re: A little question about race leaders (possible spoilers)

#8 Unread post by Karathyriel » Thu Aug 11, 2016 10:33 am

I do understand your guessing but...
No one was ever officially named as leader, that's what bothers me.
Nefretiti wrote:Sylvanas was a high elf I think,
Now that I read it, yes, you're right, she was high elf.
Xota wrote:Sylvanas doesn't have "warm and fuzzy" feelings for the alliance. She's actually the most hostile towards the alliance or the current horde leaders.
And why would she be so hateful?
Because of the Scarlet Monastery and their huntimg of undead?
What did the Alliance do to piss her off?
Frisk wrote:Rokhan is my guess. Griftah isn't really leadership material. Rokhan was basically Vol'jin's right hand man since WC3.
To my shame I have to admit, Griftah ever crossed my path, not while leveling and not while roleplaying. Or at least, I can't remember.
Rokhan does sit in my garrison, but I never saw him as a highly ranked troll.

Maybe I'm a bit out of lore... :lol:

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Re: A little question about race leaders (possible spoilers)

#9 Unread post by Valnaaros » Thu Aug 11, 2016 10:53 am

Whilst Saurfang is in the Org throne room now, ot has never been officially stated that he is the orc racial leader, just assumed.

If you want answers to all of these things, Karathyriel, then check out wowpedia. It can give you far deeper answers and explanations :)

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Re: A little question about race leaders (possible spoilers)

#10 Unread post by Rhyela » Thu Aug 11, 2016 10:57 am

If memory serves, she hates the Alliance because they essentially abandoned her people while the scourge were invading their homeland. And, it was a human who did it. But it's been a while since I played through the RTS, so I could be mis-remembering.

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Re: A little question about race leaders (possible spoilers)

#11 Unread post by Rikaku » Thu Aug 11, 2016 11:22 am

Karathyriel wrote:
Xota wrote:Sylvanas doesn't have "warm and fuzzy" feelings for the alliance. She's actually the most hostile towards the alliance or the current horde leaders.
And why would she be so hateful?
Because of the Scarlet Monastery and their huntimg of undead?
What did the Alliance do to piss her off?
Rhyela wrote:If memory serves, she hates the Alliance because they essentially abandoned her people while the scourge were invading their homeland. And, it was a human who did it. But it's been a while since I played through the RTS, so I could be mis-remembering.

Basically this. This is also why the Blood Elves are hostile towards the Alliance as well, as they are the survivors of the High Elves who fought the Scourge in those lands. They were in the same boat.

But Sylvanas also has a lot of resentment toward the living in general too. I believe I read somewhere that usually a 'by-product' of being raised into Undeath basically makes people have a feeling of resentment against the living, because generally even though the now-Undead individual is the same person, their living family members, friends, and/or faction no longer want anything to do with them. Which would honestly justify their anger.

And if true, Sylvanas will basically get the same reaction from her sisters. If I remember correctly, between Wrath and now, I think Vareesa Windrunner has conversation which shows she is openly hostile/dislikes the Undead, including her sister for being a member of the Forsaken. I think to Vareesa it's one of those 'become what we hated/fought against' sort of deals.


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Re: A little question about race leaders (possible spoilers)

#12 Unread post by Valnaaros » Thu Aug 11, 2016 11:49 am

Actually, the Alliance never refused aid to the Blood Elves during the Scourge invasion. Remember, Lordaeron was still reeling from the Scourge attacking there. They were in no position to help them. The attack on Quel'thalas happened so quickly, no one was able to aid them.

Even after the attack, the Blood Elves were still members of the Alliance and aided them in various battles. What made them leave was when Garithos, who hated elves, was sent as an human representative. Its when he started sending them on suicide missions with the sole objective of killing off elves that they finally decided to leave.

And even from that the Blood Elves healed and forgave the Alliance. Years later, during Garrosh's reign as Warchief, the Blood Elves attempted to rejoin the Alliance. The Purge ruined all chances for this.

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Re: A little question about race leaders (possible spoilers)

#13 Unread post by Xota » Thu Aug 11, 2016 12:08 pm

Also, not just looking at the motives, but how she has behaved towards the alliance. It's not because she was close to the alliance that Vol'jin didn't trust her. She's always gone farther than the rest of the horde in her aggression towards the alliance. She wants dead bodies so she can make more Forsaken.

Lor'themar had talked with Varian about rejoining the alliance.
Ji and Aysa are friends, just with differing philosophies.
Baine and Anduin are on good terms apparently from their meeting each other in The Shattering, and his fighting with the alliance has been pretty much in self-defense. The Night Elves are natural emissaries to him, there's no hostility between the Tauren and them.
Gallywix would prefer to be neutral so that he can make money off of the alliance.

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Re: A little question about race leaders (possible spoilers)

#14 Unread post by Boven » Fri Aug 12, 2016 11:40 am

Karathyriel wrote:And why would she be so hateful?
Because of the Scarlet Monastery and their huntimg of undead?
What did the Alliance do to piss her off?
When Arthas was making his way to Silvermoon, Sylvanas asked the Alliance for help. They said no. She's kind of bitter about that.

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Re: A little question about race leaders (possible spoilers)

#15 Unread post by Valnaaros » Fri Aug 12, 2016 2:51 pm

But even then, the Blood Elves stayed in the Alliance till the time that Garithos took charge and Kael'thas got involved with Illidan and his plans.

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Re: A little question about race leaders (possible spoilers)

#16 Unread post by cowmuflage » Fri Aug 12, 2016 3:52 pm

Zul'jin for troll leader.

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Re: A little question about race leaders (possible spoilers)

#17 Unread post by Valnaaros » Fri Aug 12, 2016 4:24 pm

The problem is that there hasn't been any trolls built up in recent lore to take the position. Whilst Rokhan has lore, he isn't in a position to take over as the chieftain of the Darkspear. Trolls aren't the only ones with this problem. Many, if not most, of the faction leaders have no one in the lore whom could take over if they were to die.

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Re: A little question about race leaders (possible spoilers)

#18 Unread post by Karathyriel » Fri Aug 12, 2016 4:42 pm

Yep, and exactly that is why it kind of pisses me off that Blizz is still killing them as they come.
At least, they do so on Horde side.
The only Alliance leader to die is Varian and he has his son Anduin to take over.
Even the Dwarven King has two brothers and a daughter and they managed to build the council of three hammers.

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Re: A little question about race leaders (possible spoilers)

#19 Unread post by Xella » Sat Aug 13, 2016 3:38 am

I know it's not super loretastic, but there is this:
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I wouldn't be super worried about Blizzard favouring alliance through their leaders at this point; the vast majority of the leader character development we've gotten has been Anduin (who wasn't a leader when he got it) and Varian (whose development was at the expense of the other Alliance leaders ("A Little Patience" still rubs me the wrong way and I haven't run that scenario in two years or more) and also mostly doesn't matter now unless when we go track down Illidan's soul in the twisting nether or whatever we end up bumping into his and bringing him back somehow). Moira's gotten a little bit thankfully (mostly out of game, not-thankfully) so she's not 5000% "ME BEBEH WILL ROOL IRONFARG DARK IRON 5EVA" anymore, but the rest of the alliance leaders are off in the corner with Lor'themar and Gallywix and Rukhan basically doing very little.

And let's not even go into the mess that is Jaina—they're obviously setting up something for her, and have been since Cataclysm, but the fact that they're STILL setting it up and not actually DOING anything with it or even letting it sit on the backburner and out of sight/out of mind irritates the crap out of me. Whether you feel like she's been possessed or the bombing of Theramore drove her crazy with grief or her actions are justified is irrelevant—my FoS event achievement for Theramore's Fall was September 2012, meaning it's been four years IRL and god only knows how many in-game (at LEAST two, probably more unless Anduin had the most horrifying puberty ever). Not one person, in game or out of it (as far as I know; don't have the money to keep up on all the out-of-game lore supplementals) has even tried to help her. About the best she's gotten was "Jaina, please, not now"—for FOUR YEARS. Other plot threads have sat for that long, but usually they're not constantly brought back up while they're doing the sitting—they just sit there. But Jaina's changed world view is constantly being brought back into the spotlight and nobody has done anything about it (and it gets brought back even more if you're running ICC weekly for Invincible as Alliance).

I mean I said let's not go into it and then I went into it, oops. I dunno, I just have feelings about Jaina, because I don't think she's being handled well, I have zero idea where they're trying to go with her, there's a pretty strong indication outside of WoW that she's Lordaeron's village bicycle, AND she's one of maybe three? prominent recurring female lore characters... Sylvanas being one of the others. Sylvanas' story may actually finally be handled in Legion courtesy of her being Warchief now, we'll see. Jaina's might be too, but at this point I'm not holding my breath.

I think I would not be as upset about either Sylvanas or Jaina (who at one point during TBC I decided would both be raid bosses in a Naxx-like floating ziggurat above Nagrand. I was a little horrified when Jaina's heel-turn happened that it was actually more likely than previously) if there were more prominent female lore people. Or even, you know, just more female lore people altogether. Thrall irritates the crap out of me because he's the most Mary Sue orc I've ever seen in my life, but Thrall is one of DOZENS of dude characters so even if he's in the spotlight for three expansion in a row, there are at least respites in other dude characters elsewhere, because it would be very difficult, even for Blizzard, to make every single questline in an expansion about Thrall. It is, um... not as easy to say the same about the female characters in the Warcraft universe because there are so few of them.

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Re: A little question about race leaders (possible spoilers)

#20 Unread post by Tsiya » Sun Aug 14, 2016 11:43 pm

Saurfang for Warchief, Zul'jin for Troll Leader.

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