Why should SV / MM hunters get Exotic Beast families?

[Nevar]

What I dont like about this is that were dividing hunters into "types" were all being snide with each other. Thats got to stop its rude and disrespectful - We're all hunters and it shouldnt be about what spec you are. Just because someone thinks different than you dosent give you the right to say that shouldnt ever happen because of all of these reasons. If someone feels the way they do they probably arent going to change their minds. Like I said earlier I'd love to have the pets I love and still be in my favorite spec. So for you to tell me your a MM hunter basically be happy with what I have dosent sit well with me. I dont use wolves because I dont like them - I hate how some pets are "better" than others and I hate how I cant have my Mawl(devilsaur) or my Tenseiga(Loque) out when I raid. I dont play MM because of the damage - I play MM because its my favorite spec since they messed up BM in the first place. I leveled as BM and I loved it until they changed it. My two favorite pets are my devilsaur when hes with me and my Loque - I see stuck up hunters of every spec - I see BM hunters who dont care about their pets and are only that spec for farming and survivability - I'm only MM when I raid however as I want Tenseiga with me as much as possible. I'm not trying to be angry or mean but for someone to basically say because I'm a diff spec than you I dont deserve my pets dosent sit well with me. I NEVER mock BM hunters because if you wanna spec and play that way then do it - but I dont enjoy the spec as much as I did anymore.

[Shandorei]

Sorry Quelthasa but you saying "most of them are like this, perhaps with an exception of you + some smart players" pisses me off as its not really true i see more uptight Bm hunetrs nowadays than anything. you are going by stereotypes man and thats not good. and no I don't want to "deul spec" ok i can't stand BM and I'm getting sick of BM hunters useing that exuse yet they don't liek it when i say it to them so why say it to me?

sorry to sound angry i don't mean too

Well I can't see were you get to fit this in: "I AM MM / SV I DESERV LIEK EXOTCI RARR"

Dude, that is all we got left in it, there is nothing called "good" DPS in our spec when your spec takes the cake, we -need- something to keep people interested in it, which is exactly why I don't think blizzard will do anything about it, they don't want specs to die completly out.. If they do change it, it will go like this:

"Uhm so yeah.. ur BM right?" "Yeah" "Awesome dude! why?" "dont know any longer, ill delete the char in a few hours"

What do you think makes people rolling these? It is the special and strong beasts, not because it is a good spec to raid in.. which it isnt

[Shandorei]

What I dont like about this is that were dividing hunters into "types" were all being snide with each other. Thats got to stop its rude and disrespectful - We're all hunters and it shouldnt be about what spec you are. Just because someone thinks different than you dosent give you the right to say that shouldnt ever happen because of all of these reasons. If someone feels the way they do they probably arent going to change their minds. Like I said earlier I'd love to have the pets I love and still be in my favorite spec. So for you to tell me your a MM hunter basically be happy with what I have dosent sit well with me. I dont use wolves because I dont like them - I hate how some pets are "better" than others and I hate how I cant have my Mawl(devilsaur) or my Tenseiga(Loque) out when I raid. I dont play MM because of the damage - I play MM because its my favorite spec since they messed up BM in the first place. I leveled as BM and I loved it until they changed it. My two favorite pets are my devilsaur when hes with me and my Loque - I see stuck up hunters of every spec - I see BM hunters who dont care about their pets and are only that spec for farming and survivability - I'm only MM when I raid however as I want Tenseiga with me as much as possible. I'm not trying to be angry or mean but for someone to basically say because I'm a diff spec than you I dont deserve my pets dosent sit well with me. I NEVER mock BM hunters because if you wanna spec and play that way then do it - but I dont enjoy the spec as much as I did anymore.

So yeah..

I don't mock you, I am just putting out facts, we divide the hunters because it IS like that, what you are saying here, is that a fury warrior should have Bladestorm because its unfair they don't have that superawesome ability, and that paladins should have ardent defender and avengers shield or whatever in retribution spec.


We shouldn't mix these things, look at the BM spec, it is RUBBISH, the pets and surviviability is all it got!! If you so much want all exotics in SV / MM (Which is rather silly seeing they didn't even exist before, so you really got nothing to cry about BM getting a bonus there) then I want Exp. Shot, Wyvern Sting, etc.

It is your option, you can go read some BM raiding guide, learn from it, and try to master it and raid with it, it is not impossible.

[Kaleos]

The way I see it Blizz designed the hunter class as a pet class. It's suppose to be a core mechanic of that class. Sure they pulled ideas from other fantasy classes as ranger and such, but it's still a PET class. Now being a pet class I think it's near sighted of Blizz to penalize a hunter for wanting to have a certain pet and forcing them into a specific spec for it. Now you try and say that's the uniqueness of that spec, but a hunter is all about the pet. A hunter should be able to tame whichever pet they want due to their taste not talent.

There are plenty of other ways to distinguish the separate specs then pets. Spells, talents, maybe even special pet talents or pet spells for the spec. The way I see it a spec shouldn't be held up by one talent alone cause then it just becomes gimmicky instead of useful. Bring the tree back up so it's viable as a hard damage dealing build like the other trees and don't try and lean on one talent as the trees saving grace when so much more is needed.

And to say that MM/SV wanting exotics is silly cause they didn't even exist before, then why should BM keep it? I mean ...they didn't even exist before so you really have nothing to cry about ...

But all in all though I think as a hunter you should be open to all and any pet you heart truly desires.

[Kayb]

I'm MM, and I DON'T want exotic beasts. Most of them are ugly and I find the idea of being able to tame a tyrannosaur or two headed giant demon hound utterly absurd, even in this unrealistic game.

So as long as you aren't running around saying that ALL MM and SV bitch they can't have exotics, then I'm not gonna any issues with you.

[Shandorei]

The way I see it Blizz designed the hunter class as a pet class. It's suppose to be a core mechanic of that class. Sure they pulled ideas from other fantasy classes as ranger and such, but it's still a PET class. Now being a pet class I think it's near sighted of Blizz to penalize a hunter for wanting to have a certain pet and forcing them into a specific spec for it. Now you try and say that's the uniqueness of that spec, but a hunter is all about the pet. A hunter should be able to tame whichever pet they want due to their taste not talent.

There are plenty of other ways to distinguish the separate specs then pets. Spells, talents, maybe even special pet talents or pet spells for the spec. The way I see it a spec shouldn't be held up by one talent alone cause then it just becomes gimmicky instead of useful. Bring the tree back up so it's viable as a hard damage dealing build like the other trees and don't try and lean on one talent as the trees saving grace when so much more is needed.

And to say that MM/SV wanting exotics is silly cause they didn't even exist before, then why should BM keep it? I mean ...they didn't even exist before so you really have nothing to cry about ...

But all in all though I think as a hunter you should be open to all and any pet you heart truly desires.

Yeah sir, I agree with you hunters should share and love each other. So you can have king krush if I get exp. shot, b. arrow, why? Because I think that is the core of the class and its silly that I need to spec for it.

... Dude, even if you don't get exotics you claim pets is the core of the class. And tell me, in a raid, how much percent does the pet do compared to you? It is rubbish in there as MM / SV, only a stat stick (Aka AP buff from wolves, OFC).. When it does that low damage you cannot keep pretending it is the core of the hunter, it is no longer that in those specs, it does 5-15% of your total damage, might be even more if you suck a little, but you get the point? You HAVE pets, you can go spec BM if you need those pets.

And NO, the spec wouldn't be totally destroyed, but devoured and people would honestly spec otherwise. Think about all those who just think it is cool taming a devilsaur, you think they would stay BM? Only stuff left is having strong pets, thats the general thing in the spec then. WHEN YOU get: Über strong shots, nice CC if you spec for it, survivability if you want for PvP, strong pets, fancy shots..

We get: "Beast Mastery; Increasing your total amount of Pet Skill Points by 4."



Ya, I feel your pain. Also take your time and read the posts, it isn't only me who thinks the spec need exotics, something different, it is LOTS of people thinking the exact same thing, you shouldn't request something more when you already have lots of tools and ways to become the best DPS everywhere.. We don't have that, and we need something.

But ofc you will come with the "pets = core lololo" so yeah, I say you should get bestial wrath, beast within, ferocious inspiration, kindred spirits, all that from trainer and make it passive buffs /sarcasm

I'm MM, and I DON'T want exotic beasts. Most of them are ugly and I find the idea of being able to tame a tyrannosaur or two headed giant demon hound utterly absurd, even in this unrealistic game.

So as long as you aren't running around saying that ALL MM and SV bitch they can't have exotics, then I'm not gonna any issues with you.

We aren't "teasing" you guys for not having it, we are rather afraid losing something called a signature. Its like you lose explosive shot / Chimera shot for nothing.

The Beast Mastery spec is already at a point where it is so rubbish, that changing or "nerfing" it just the slightest amount could destroy it completly, giving away talents from it is the last thing that should happen. I doubt most of you here have ever tried living as a BM hunter, it isn't at a healthy, steady point

[Pyronite]

The idea of a ranger was mentioned a few times, and that would be pretty cool actually since it would keep hardcore MM happy. Maybe it could be a talent that increases X stat by X% but you cant summon your pet.

[Shandorei]

The idea of a ranger was mentioned a few times, and that would be pretty cool actually since it would keep hardcore MM happy. Maybe it could be a talent that increases X stat by X% but you cant summon your pet.

Like the idea^^ Would have BM as MS and a MM os, sounds very interesting^^

[Acherontia]

(Note the following is just my opinion, I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything )

The argument against giving exotics to other specs are:

* They are unique to BM, and we have nothing else unique
* They are higher dps, and giving them to other specs would give them higher dps as well

Addressing the second point first: not really. Devilsaurs edge out JUST in front (~200 dps?) with -some- gear choices. Wolves are still second, and first with some gear choices (including mine). So I don't think that giving them to all specs would overpower other specs that much *more* in comparison to BM. Spirit beasts, core hounds, warp stalkers, worms and chimaeras are all but useless in your average raid. Yes there's special circumstances where, say, a worm might be helpful, but it's unusual. Your average Surv/MM hunter would actually, do to sticking with ArP/Agi, probably still do better with a wolf!

The first point: We could use something unique. Right now it's exotics, and Big Red Pets. To me, here is the issue, and what we mustn't lose sight of:

BM is currently a NOVELTY SPEC. They gave us shiny pets nobody else can get, and made it so we can't compete at top gear levels with the other two specs. This is wrong imo. Instead of focusing on exotics and saying "BM only," imo we should be looking at other ways to make BM strong--because really, exotics do NOT make enough of a difference. They do not even compare to special shots, as there is only -one- exotic that is higher dps than a wolf, and only situationally.

And yeah, I know the "give us your shots then" is metaphorical

So I don't care if MM/Surv hunters get to tame my shiny pets. Wanting to keep them for my own spec seems a bit selfish. However, we COULD use buffing in our damage overall. That's why I suggested combining Beast with Dragonhawk as a BM talent. Otherwise, though, we do need something, but I trust Blizz to sort it out, even if it takes awhile.

Meanwhile, I'm happy going BM + Wolf to a raid and outdoing the MM/Surv hunters who aren't as determined to max their potential as I am.

TLDR: I don't think Exotics are a big DPS difference at all. I do think BM could use a boost but *in my opinion* I don't mind Exotics being given to other specs, and I trust Blizz to fix us eventually.

[Shandorei]

Acherontia, excellent post. Exactly what could be most right to do, you answered the topic name, and did it pretty well

You might have the "real" answer right there, but what still bothers me is those hunters thinking they deserve exotics because they are hunters.. See the thread on the EU forums, where blizzard requests feedback from hunters, about the third post down there or something.. Someone says: "GIEF ALL PETS TO ALL SPECZ CUZ WE R IMBAH"

He doesn't give an explanation why that would be right, he doesn't recommend what would justify this. He does nothing but treating BM like some shitty whore spec that nobody care for, that is why I made this tread here, were people with some insight about pets, what they do for you, and how they fit in the hunter community.

I still could never give up that for nothing in trade, fine, give them exotics, but for me.. that will ruin a part of this.. Seeing BM hunters with rare beasts isn't common, seeing hunters running around with wolves is common...

If you gave this exotic thing to every specs it would only end up with every hunter and their granny running around with loque / skoll / Devilsaurs / *insert exotic* which would take away the feeling of them even being exotic.

Hell, by giving them that there would no longer be exotics, no longer any "rare" "unique" pets around, everyone would have all the cool stuff.


Tell me Acherontia, would you give a fury warrior bladestorm, with 15% reduced damage? No, you wouldn't because that is not the right thing to do.

[Acherontia]

Bladestorm is what 'makes' a spec. Bladestorm is also very powerful.

Exotics 'make' BM but they are not powerful. They are simply novelty things that look pretty.

1. Give BM something else to be unique and
2. Make any pet viable for raiding.

I just don't think it's a good idea to focus on shiny and useless objects as the strong/unique point in a spec that really needs something other than flash and fail.

[Shandorei]

ahh I see where you are going, but it isn't the SV / MM that lacks something (You COULD say they lack special pets, but don't take that in account).

MM / SV can perform just as good as a BM or much better even WITHOUT their pets, we can never reach their heights even with the pets, /w equal skill and knowledge about the specs. We are so far behind they shouldn't even get a bonus if we were to get a buff in the future. It wouldn't been unfair even if we only got a buff, whilst they didn't, because I would still think they were at top.

We who take BM have to pay for it, damage wise.

Those who take SV/MM also have to pay for it, pet wise.

Its all a matter of choice here, which is exactly why you could take a BM OS for the lovely pets, and raid with your pro wolf called... wolf...

See that? It goes both ways you SV / MM specced guys aren't the only one lacking something.. And yeah I agree a littlebit there, exotics for increased passive damage would be nice, but atleast I am happy with the way things are right now, I have the choice of dual-spec specialization and so do you,

[Acherontia]

The whole idea I think everyone is missing is the fact that exotics -aren't- better than non-exotics. With gemming arp/agi, wolf is better for both of the other specs.

So why should we HAVE to pay for it, damage-wise? Just because the pets are prettier? I just think that BM needs a damage buff, and that exotics don't need to be BM-only.

This thread's inspired me to post on the EU Suggestions forum suggesting that the 10% melee AP increase be combined, FOR BM HUNTERS ONLY, with Dragonhawk. That should put us on about equal footing, or much closer anyway.

By the way, I'm totally not wanting to come across argumentative, I do find this conversation interesting. But I wanted to point out that this:

which is exactly why you could take a BM OS for the lovely pets

is exactly what I think we should steer CLEAR of when designing BM. A spec entirely based around pretty pets is just silly IMO. The spec is meant to be based around mastery of beasts--increased pet damage, increased pet<->hunter synergy, and beastlike abilities for the hunter. I raid BM, I don't take it for the pretty pets, so of course our opinions on spec design will differ, but in the end I'd rather have a damage buff than a sparkly but comparatively weak pet.

[Shandorei]

Jumped in and gave my 2 cents

Anyway, the visual effects of the BM spec also counts to many, mostly the exotic pets are big, ferocious and looks deadly, with some neat tools (Like the chimera in your signature )

Even if the MM / SV specs got them, I would be fine with that, in trade of something that is visual, perhaps making the last talent in BM scale the pets to grow abit bigger, because as you said, we are masters of beasts, and -our- beasts should look stronger than the SV / MM beasts without looking at the HP and buffs we get from BM tree.

Think that idea would keep the feeling of being a BM still hang around, because.. The size of that devilsaur is NEAT, agree there

[Acherontia]

Actually that's a really cool idea--the visual effects.

What about something like changing Bestial Wrath to be more viable in PvE without destroying it for PvP, and for the duration, you become a massive beast like Thekal (tiger boss from ZG)?

For example, Bestial Wrath could:

* Last twice as long
* Turn you into a massive tiger-man
* Decrease damage taken by 50%
* Decrease duration of CC/magic effects by 70% for the duration (instead of being immune, to trade off for the lengthened effect + dmg reduction).

[Shandorei]

Hmm ideas ideas for the replacement of Exotic pets talent, or just something to piff it up a little. While I would love this, it would 100% certain make locks go QQ "ITS AS GOOD AS MY LAST TALENT TIER BUFF ME!!!!"

And I also don't know about that in the case of being realistic ;\ Hunters (BM hunters) have always been so realistic and perhaps even plain, but this adds joy to the class indeed :p

But I have to be honest, I love the 10 sec immunity to everything atm, it is just love kiting and nuking classes to death with a nuke button. So I would rather want the increased size + Aspect of the Beast/Aspect of the Dragonhawk added together

[Slickrock]

Some very good discussion here in the last few posts.. a few points on that discussion.

It's correct that BM exotics are not better dps than the wolf, the Trex barely passes the wolf at high gear and Arp levels, below that wolf is king. But, they are better than the other non-exotics. (Exotics or non-exotics with debuffs can easily beat the wolf in smaller raids and 5-mans if no one else brings those debuffs, but since that doesn't show on recount, no one cares).

So there's an easy fix. Nerf the damn wolf, and put it in line with other non-exotics. Or buff the other pets.

Another fix would be reverting some of the BM nerfs, but then the locks and priests would QQ an ocean of tears regarding PVP, so that won't happen.

If we give everyone all pets, then give BM dual-pets.

Overall, we are going to have to wait until Cata for changes, and hope that we are more closely balanced. But there are so many changes that we'll likely be concerned about hunters overall rather than one spec in particular. Focus, ammo change, stat changes, etc. It's going to be a whole new world for us.

[Slickrock]

Actually that's a really cool idea--the visual effects.

What about something like changing Bestial Wrath to be more viable in PvE without destroying it for PvP, and for the duration, you become a massive beast like Thekal (tiger boss from ZG)?

For example, Bestial Wrath could:

* Last twice as long
* Turn you into a massive tiger-man
* Decrease damage taken by 50%
* Decrease duration of CC/magic effects by 70% for the duration (instead of being immune, to trade off for the lengthened effect + dmg reduction).

Good ideas, only problem I see is that it would only help for PVP/solo. We need a boost to BM for raiding as well, where sadly recount rules all.

[Slickrock]

But I have to be honest, I love the 10 sec immunity to everything atm, it is just love kiting and nuking classes to death with a nuke button. So I would rather want the increased size + Aspect of the Beast/Aspect of the Dragonhawk added together

This might be another option, but we need the damage boost as well.

[Sphax]

There isnt any diference in the dps between an exotic or non exotic pet

I mean even as BM a wolf is best. So why even introduce exotic pets when the normal pets are beter. My point is that blizzard should let all pets avaible to any spec and change the current Talent to allow something extra besides the "4 extra talent points"

Like in Cataclysm we get 3 active pets.

Well my idea would be to allow the other 2 pets to be summoned for a certain amount of time 45sec-1 min like the totems of a shaman

like they intend to do with the Inferno/Doomguard with the Warlocks

This would be unique to the Beastmaster and a nice boost in any situation allowing multiple combos to be created

Fer/Fer/Fer (pure dps)
Fer/Cun/Ten (all around)
..... and so on

also this would mean that a beast master would actually have to spend more time with his pets than an marksmanship or surv hunter
(leveling 3 pets / searching to tame the right ones)
for RP hunters this woul even allow stories like having Pet families and leting them even fight togehter



Conclusion: Yes let all pet families to all hunters and give something in those terms to our BeastMaster friends




(if anyone can post this on any WoW forum would be nice since i have to pay a subscription)

Sphax Boulderfist -EU








Thanks !!!!