War of the Thorns annoyances

[Sukurachi]

It's always a bad idea to have important lore events in other media that's not the main media. If it's important to the story of the game it should be in the game.

+100

[Castile]

Here is an interesting post on Reddit.

That Reddit pretty much covered how I feel about it too. For me, Sylvanas has done nothing inconsistent with how her character has been portrayed for many expansions. There are no bad character twists as far as I can see, and it would have been bad writing for her to suddenly change. What characters on the Horde side are forced to partake in is another matter, and I believe that's what they will really need to address in BfA to satisfy me. Nobody gets a good gaming experience out of being forced so far from the moral character they imagine for their toon.

I agree. Sylvanas has always been evil and the undead quests prove they are apart from a lot of horde races in many respects. I don't know where this morally grey stuff comes from either....she's not even walking the line. She's well and truly crossed it. I don't think I can bring myself to do them on the horde side...I mean why would my Belf Paladin want to burn innocent people? He's a "protection" paladin after all...even my DK would take issue with it. I don't even think I can do the burning quest again on my alliance alts Its Oracles level of sad....

[Castile]

It's always a bad idea to have important lore events in other media that's not the main media. If it's important to the story of the game it should be in the game.

This I agree with as well. I mean I do read the books but I don't see how people could of understood certain things in cata without reading the Shattering or Tides of War to understand how Jaina turned from Thralls bestie to worst enemy.

[Setanta]

My only complaint with this is that there ARE Tauren NPCs out in Darkshore that we can see helping with this endeavor. Kodo Beast Riders, for example. So in game, this doesn't help make it very clear that Baine is against this. I know a leader cannot control ALL of his people, but that makes it also seem like the Tauren are fine with what is going on. Same with any other type of NPC out there.

I can see Lor'themar going along with TAKING the tree as it's a strategic advantage, but I know he's going to be super unhappy with what went down. He was one of the few very outspoken characters against Garrosh at the time and the actions he took as Warchief.

It's also very frustrating how much narrative elements we miss by skipping the books. They're very bad with presenting lore in books and not bringing it to the forefront in any way in the game. They've done this a lot before and it's always bit them in the ass when it comes to major events. These are things people NEED to know without having to spend extra cash getting a book on the side. We miss a LOT this way. We're not getting enough info in game, which causes a totally different experience from someone who's read the books and then played the events in game and someone who has not read the books then played the event.

Problem is in all honesty, is for all we know the kodo riders could have been fillers. The only real consistency I saw playing both sides of the conflict were that the night elf defenses were 100% night elves. Any worgen we saw were civilians (unless they were shapeshifted druids). It will be interesting to see how complicit they make the Goblins, especially Gallywix for this chain of events (he was the only one who had an idea of what Azerite could be, before the infamous 'Sword in Silithus').

I agree that it is unfair that if you haven't read the books you're kind of behind with the storyline in this case. It wasn't as bad with Legion and the novel Illidan, because they explained more in the story than they have so far. Short story with the Tauren is that Sylvanas knows about the previous communication between Baine and Anduin and is using that against him enough that when Anduin tried to communicate with Baine through Valeera Sanguinar, the return message was basically "We can't talk, 'she' knows about it".

[Setanta]

It's always a bad idea to have important lore events in other media that's not the main media. If it's important to the story of the game it should be in the game.

This I agree with as well. I mean I do read the books but I don't see how people could of understood certain things in cata without reading the Shattering or Tides of War to understand how Jaina turned from Thralls bestie to worst enemy.

That was why the Theramore scenario existed I thought.

[Castile]

It's always a bad idea to have important lore events in other media that's not the main media. If it's important to the story of the game it should be in the game.

This I agree with as well. I mean I do read the books but I don't see how people could of understood certain things in cata without reading the Shattering or Tides of War to understand how Jaina turned from Thralls bestie to worst enemy.

That was why the Theramore scenario existed I thought.

The book had a lot of other information though. It gave more of insight into Jaina's turn rather than "bomb go boom makes me mad"

[Valnaaros]

Without going too much into the details of the Horde War Campaign, the Goblins and Gallywix are perfectly fine with everything that is going on and with the mining of Azerite.

Even if Baine is being pressured, that doesn't explain why the Trolls, Orcs, Blood Elves, Highmountains, Pandaren, and Nightborne are going along with it. One could say that the Orcs take any opportunity to attack the Night Elves, but lore has stated that the Orcs that currently in the Horde are the same ones that were against what Garrosh was doing. Despite this and many other things, we still see the Horde races supporting Sylvanas and following her orders post-Teldrassil.

[Valnaaros]

@Castile. Exacty. If you were to ask people who Kinndy Sparkshine is, only those that read the novel or studied the lore would know who she is and why she is a big reason why Jaina gave up on peace with the Horde.

[Setanta]

The book had a lot of other information though. It gave more of insight into Jaina's turn rather than "bomb go boom makes me mad"

oh I agree. There were feels about when she went to touch Kinndey and the end result of that. Another point that got brought back up in BtS.

[Setanta]

Without going too much into the details of the Horde War Campaign, the Goblins and Gallywix are perfectly fine with everything that is going on and with the mining of Azerite.

Even if Baine is being pressured, that doesn't explain why the Trolls, Orcs, Blood Elves, Highmountains, Pandaren, and Nightborne are going along with it. One could say that the Orcs take any opportunity to attack the Night Elves, but lore has stated that the Orcs that currently in the Horde are the same ones that were against what Garrosh was doing. Despite this and many other things, we still see the Horde races supporting Sylvanas and following her orders post-Teldrassil.

This goes back to what information sharing is going on. Despite the prompting you can do in UC with her as a player, I have my doubts that the persons of the Horde are being given any information other than what they are required to do for their part of the mission. Saurfang, Nathanos, and perhaps Lor'themar are the only ones who seem to know more of what is going on due to their proximity to Sylvanas. The history of Warcraft has usually shown Orcs being restless if they don't have something to fight in front of them, so that would have been an easy sell. One could argue that with Vol'jin's death that the Trolls are somewhat leaderless even if Roh'kan is the new mouthpiece.

[Valnaaros]

It is less that there isn't information being shared with the rest of the Horde and more that what she is doing is happening right infront of them and they don't care -- that no one does aside from Saurfang. That is the reason why the majority of people are angry. Sylvanas is doing all manner of terrible things and 99.9% of the Horde is going along with it. Even Nathanos is taken aback by Sylvanas' actions in BtS and her order to burn Teldrassil. If he is finding an issue with it, then certainly others are. Blizz has written the Horde into a corner that they can't really get out of without some sort of deus ex machina.

[Setanta]

It is less that there isn't information being shared with the rest of the Horde and more that what she is doing is happening right infront of them and they don't care -- that no one does aside from Saurfang. That is the reason why the majority of people are angry. Sylvanas is doing all manner of terrible things and 99.9% of the Horde is going along with it. Even Nathanos is taken aback by Sylvanas' actions in BtS and her order to burn Teldrassil. If he is finding an issue with it, then certainly others are. Blizz has written the Horde into a corner that they can't really get out of without some sort of deus ex machina.

Problem is that BtS left open a lot of potential leadership voids and uncertainties that are built into the allied races as well. No actual lead Orc...Saurfang is the most veteran leader they have so he's a default, they put Baine in an precarious situation via blackmail. Roh'kan is presumed to be the new troll leader, but how do the Zandalari play into this scenario later on, how do the Mag'har from AU Draenor complicate matters with the Orcs and with the Horde in general? How does the inclusion later on of the Dark Iron play with the Dwarven leadership despite Moira Bronzebeard seemingly acting more like a Bronzebeard and less like a sullen Dark Iron consort?

From a military perspective, if the believed goal is the siege of Darnassus, and isolation/hostage taking of the civilians with the primary goal being the seizing of the ports. Then it's easy enough to see why the military might of the Horde would be behind that idea. The perception we are given regarding the burning itself is based off of the interaction between Sylvanas and Capt. Summermoon (her first name eludes me). I think she was content to possess/control Darnassus until that confrontation, and what Sylvanas saw in that young elf was her past self, and that caused her to fly into a rage and order the burning of the tree as a way of a final cleansing of who she was before. Especially when placed in concert with the meetings she had with Vereesa during War Crimes, and the gathering of the 3 Windrunner sisters in the short story released not that long ago. The message here I think is that any semblance there ever was to the Ranger-General Sylvanas Windrunner is permanently dead and gone, and only the Dark Queen remains.

Your argument is more based off of the end result of the campaign, and that is the story that hasn't been written yet. What do those members of the Horde do with this situation now that it has reached its fruition. Do they continue to blindly follow their Warchief, or do we start to see cracks in the facade?

[Valnaaros]

Spoilers

Rokhan is acting a temporary leader at this time, but lore revealed in BfA states that the Darkspear are currently deciding on a permanent leader. Princess Talanji becomes the leader of the Zandalari after Rastakhan dies. She actually does not like nor trust Sylvanas. The Mag'har are more than happy to fight the Alliance since the Draenei are in it. They hate the Draenei now due to what happens in AU Draenor. The Dark Irons are already member of the Alliance according to Anduin in BfA, they just didn't go through the formalities of them joining, but they have still been members since Cata. Further, the Dark Irons are helpful and proud members of the Alliance.

End of Spoilers

Except why would the Horde even want to do that? Sylvanas is the only one that has the paranoia of the Alliance creating Azerite weapons and using it against them. None of the other Horde leaders share that concern/paranoia. There is no reason given to the Horde for them to rally against the Alilance other than the Warchief telling them to. Stormheim is never brought up during the War of the Thorns nor in BfA. The killing of Goblin Miners in Silithus is excused due to the fact that the Goblins actually attacked and killed a camp of Explorer's League members that were in Silithus before them. Even then, it is never mentioned by anyone. The Horde are going to war for literally no reason, and they are fine with everything they do along the way, including the killing of citizens in Ashenvale (mostly guards were killed, but there were civilians killed, too), the destruction of nature and its denizens (Furbolgs, Wisps, Dryads, etc.), and eventually the burning of Teldrassil. Why am I saying that they are fine with it?

Spoilers

Because they do not show any sort of remorse at the Battle for Undercity or any point afterwards. No one aside from Saurfang takes issue with Sylvanas using the Blight. It isn't only the Forsaken that use it, but also Goblins, Orcs, and Tauren (for some bizarre reason). They even use it on their own soldiers, and then Sylvanas immediately reanimates Horde soldiers as skeletons to fight against the Alliance. Yes, skeletons are considered a brainless undead, but that doesn't take away the fact that she is desecrating their bodies. Even after all of this, the Horde still follows Sylvanas without any sign of dissent. If Blizz wanted to show that there are Horde outside of Saurfang that aren't happy with Sylvanas, they are doing a terrible job of it.

Then later during the events of BfA, under Sylvanas' orders, the Horde attacks the main village of Stormsong Valley, Brennadam, which consists of 95% farmers and merchants. Why? Because she wants to reanimate them into more Forsaken. They aren't a military target. They aren't a threat to Sylvanas or the Horde. At this moment in time, Kul Tiras is not a member of the Alliance, and they are not taking any actions against them. Horde races that participate in this attack: Orcs, Darkspears, Goblins, and Forsaken. None of them have any qualms with pinning civilians against the walls with spears or bombing a building filled with children (Which literally does happen).

Then in the War Campaign, the Sylvanas orders the Horde to work on acquiring and reanimating the bodies of fallen Kul Tiran heroes, and then enslaving them to her will. To help with this, Sylvanas recruits the San'layn into the Horde and tasks them with both harassing the Alliance and aiding in finding these bodies. The only one that has any issue with this is Princess Talanji, and she isn't even in the Horde yet. When she talks about this to Rokhan, he just tells her that it is Sylvanas' decision and thus the San'layn should be treated as fellow Horde. In a particular quest, Nathanos remarks that he hates humanity and that it is a burden, and that all of them will serve in undead (this is spoken in the presence of Garona and Voss).

In the Alliance War Campaign, Gallywix is working alongside the San'layn to acquire Azerite for the Horde, the bodies that Sylvanas wants, and riches for himself (Which he steals from the most sacred tombs of the Zandalari). Again, during this campaign, there isn't a single sign of Horde dissent.

End of Spoilers.

My point is, there isn't a single Horde member outside of Saurfang and Baine (in the novels) that are against Sylvanas and what she is doing. Not a single one. Blizz cannot just tell the Horde to "wait and see" when, thus far, there isn't any reason to have hope for things to get better. They have no reason nor motivation to fight the Alliance, and any the Alliance could do in the future would be seen as justified. Sylvanas has already committed terrible atrocities that 99.9% of people would be disgusted with, and yet the Horde is fine with it. What could she possibly do later on that would cause them to turn against her?

[Teigan]

I uh....well. There's Certificates of Ownership, so this is fine. I know it was wrong. Or was it morally grey?

[Thwip]

I uh....well. There's Certificates of Ownership, so this is fine. I know it was wrong. Or was it morally grey?

I'm dying so hard at all the good memes coming out of this. I swear to god.


(Also, Valnaaros: PLAYABLE SAN'LAYN WHEN??? I know we don't need more elves, but but but VAMPIRE ELVES. I have a mighty need for this one to be playable, lololol. Joking aside, that's my issues. You nailed them on the head. When Garrosh started his shit, nearly every Horde leader was like 'BOOOOOOOOI WHAT YOU DOIN' yet we're getting a strange........silence this time.)

[Valnaaros]

Spoilers


Blood Prince Drevan, who was the leader of the San'layn in the Horde, is killed by Shandris in the final quest of the Alliance War Campaign. At this moment, it is uncertain whether or not the San'layn will be playable.

[Thwip]

Spoilers


Blood Prince Drevan, who was the leader of the San'layn in the Horde, is killed by Shandris in the final quest of the Alliance War Campaign. At this moment, it is uncertain whether or not the San'layn will be playable.

My hopes and dreams just shattered. Can't have my bone devilsaur and likely not gettin' my glorious vampires. fml.

I'm also gettin' hella offtopic. Sorry fam.

[Wain]

It's always a bad idea to have important lore events in other media that's not the main media. If it's important to the story of the game it should be in the game.

yes!!!!!!!

[Flyra]

Sorry I gotta rant here about the turn of events. Cant hide my dissapointment, the writing for Sylvanas really seems like it's written by people who couldn't care less about her character. It's just not accurate? If your own player base is telling you your writing is off then maybe you hired the wrong people for the job. Yes, Sylvanas has done horrific things in her past but none of them were ever spontaneous or over something so trivial. They were done with meticulous planning and precision and always with her Forsaken in mind. Jesus Christ Sylvanas has even thought about suicide before and even that was considered in a calm thoughtful manner.

Oh, also. Thanks Blizz for not giving a damn about EU players and releasing that short a day before we got the new quests. I clicked that video expecting to see some epic backstory on one of my favourite fictional characters but instead got a spoiler and a supposedly "intelligent", "calculated" warrior queen.... throwing a tantrum? It's like they're trying to create an evil Tyrande. And don't even get me started on Tyrande. She's the leader of the Night Elves and they keep writing her as this lovesick teenager. Shes a warrior as well, she never used to be like that! She slaughtered a bunch of Wardens to release Illidan for crying out loud.. and she was still with Malfurion then !

I do not have high hopes for BfA. Seems like they're going back to "horde people are mean and alliance only want good!!". It's too black and white. Both sides are more complex than that.

It sucks. I started off as a dedicated Alliance player. Then I switched to Horde. The reason I fell in love with the Horde was because they are portrayed as the bad guys or the "evil" faction a lot whereas there's actually a lot more depth to it. Many horde races are survivors, people that have been shunned by the alliance. They built something when they had nothing. But here we go again, back to playing goodies and baddies. Why don't they just burn all the past lore with Teldrassil while they're at?


*goes back to look at memes*

[Sukurachi]

Sorry I gotta rant here about the turn of events....snip...
*goes back to look at memes*

I know where you're at


I've been sick about this all day.
I had to do the Darkshore quests a 2nd time (I have two distinct accounts, and wanted the mounts on that 2nd account), and I was feeling nauseated the entire time I did the quests.

The Horde are not "evil". You got that right.
We're a collection of races who've been mistreated, rejected, cheated, betrayed, etc...
Who have worked toward common goals and have figured out a way of existing together as one family. And like any family, it's not perfect.

But make the head of the household a serial killer, and then force the entire family to be complicit in those crimes?
That simply doesn't fit the ethos of The Horde.
It certainly doesn't fit the morals of my Blood Elf brethren.