People in alpha, what's your opinion on BM?

[Rhyela]

Hormonal rant inc: How about instead of all these other fixes people have mentioned, they just stop messing with a spec that has more or less been fine for the past 10 years? For all its flaws or faults, I'd wager that the majority of us who used BM were fine with it, and would prefer it over what we have now, even when it wasn't the strongest spec. We didn't play it because it had the best numbers, but because we felt bonded with our pet, and we loved it. But now, just about all of us who have played it HATE it. And for what? Tinkering with things to make them "different" just for the sake of being different isn't cutting it anymore. Stop jacking with our crap. We were fine before.

Honestly, I think I miss BM from Wrath. Wrath on the whole was an AoE spam-fest, but I miss when pets had their own unique abilities. Yes, some were stronger than others (*cough* wolf *cough*), but it was awesome seeing my spirit beast use Spirit Strike, and watching Apollyon grow big and red and angry when he used his...whatever that ability was along with BW. The chompy thing. Anyway. THAT, to me, felt more BMy than this shiz they're asking us to work with now.

/endrant

(P.S. You guys are actually coming up with some really cool ideas, which is why they won't actually implement them.)

[Rhyela]

My apologies for the double-post, but I have a quick question since I don't have PTR access: I know that Lone Wolf is now a talent in the level 15 tier, but what are the other two talents? I'm seriously considering trying MM in Legion, but don't know enough about the talents.

[Wain]

Unfortunately it's too late to revert the spec now. They tore it apart and so far have not demonstrated that they have the time or people or enthusiasm to fix it up.

They have at the most just SIX WEEKS to fix the real bugs with the class. Within six weeks the pre-Legion patch should hit (based on the fact it's now exactly 10 weeks until Legion release) and then we'll all switch to Legion BM. So far they've shown little inclination to fix the real bugs with hunters let alone raise the spec above mediocrity. Right now my money is on them fixing the most serious bugs by pre-Legion, with more bugs delayed until expansion launch, and then a couple of band-aid improvements to our rotation in maybe in 7.1 or 7.2 which will leave almost nobody completely satisfied. Hopefully in six weeks I'll be embarrassed and admitting I unfairly judged them. I really hope I am.

[zedxrgal]

Hormonal rant inc: How about instead of all these other fixes people have mentioned, they just stop messing with a spec that has more or less been fine for the past 10 years? For all its flaws or faults, I'd wager that the majority of us who used BM were fine with it, and would prefer it over what we have now, even when it wasn't the strongest spec. We didn't play it because it had the best numbers, but because we felt bonded with our pet, and we loved it. But now, just about all of us who have played it HATE it. And for what? Tinkering with things to make them "different" just for the sake of being different isn't cutting it anymore. Stop jacking with our crap. We were fine before.

Honestly, I think I miss BM from Wrath. Wrath on the whole was an AoE spam-fest, but I miss when pets had their own unique abilities. Yes, some were stronger than others (*cough* wolf *cough*), but it was awesome seeing my spirit beast use Spirit Strike, and watching Apollyon grow big and red and angry when he used his...whatever that ability was along with BW. The chompy thing. Anyway. THAT, to me, felt more BMy than this shiz they're asking us to work with now.

/endrant

(P.S. You guys are actually coming up with some really cool ideas, which is why they won't actually implement them.)

This! ^^^^^^ All of this. 100%

But. Sadly like Wain said above they aren't going to fix jack. They don't have the time, man power, yadda yadda yadda. It is what it is. We're stuck with it at least till the first major patch.

Hopefully in six weeks I'll be embarrassed and admitting I unfairly judged them. I really hope I am.

I hope so too. For all our sakes.

[Shade]

A quick BM question-in the pre-legion patch, will BM hunters be using two pets at once? My understanding is that Hati is only from the artifact weapon that we get as a BM.

If the spec has been balanced around hunters having that Hati summon, how drastically is not having Hati going to influence our play and DPS during the pre-legion event?

[Valnaaros]

No, they won't have a second pet during the Pre-launch. You only get that from the Artifact.

As for dps, I can confirm from testing my live hunter in both the beta and ptr that the dps is less without Hati

[zedxrgal]

For me it was a significant drop in dps compared to live. It seemed like about a 20% dps loss.
Anyone else have about the same?

[Valnaaros]

Roughly. It depends upon the gear you already have Live. I have a full set of Heroic HFC gear, including the class trinket. Still doing good, but there is a decrease.

[Nachtwulf]

Honestly? I'm gonna take the op of the patch dropping to get used to Surv. I know its playstyle is gonna be crazy different than most anything else I've played, so I need that time to figure out wth I'm doing by the time things Get Real.

[SpiritBinder]

I'm not sure which way I'll be going at this point, MM is offering better soloing and it also has wind running attached to its artifact.

http://legion.wowhead.com/spell=219223/windrunning

This is essentially our old aspect of the cheetah which I miss terribly. So SV will gain a movement speed by a combat buff, MM get it from thier artifact and BM gets nothing.

(And NO the new AotC is nothing like is was, not even close. It's a poor mans dash on a ridiculous timer that shouldn't even be called AotC IMO)

My only thing MM seems to be lacking in is the trickle healing from Spiritbond/kill command that BM offers (though not 100% sure how effective it is as its not 1/2 as nice as the live version and doesn't heal your pet either) will just have to keep playing with both and see.

[Quiv]

I'm not sure which way I'll be going at this point, MM is offering better soloing and it also has wind running attached to its artifact.

http://legion.wowhead.com/spell=219223/windrunning

This is essentially our old aspect of the cheetah which I miss terribly. So SV will gain a movement speed by a combat buff, MM get it from thier artifact and BM gets nothing.

(And NO the new AotC is nothing like is was, not even close. It's a poor mans dash on a ridiculous timer that shouldn't even be called AotC IMO)

My only thing MM seems to be lacking in is the trickle healing from Spiritbond/kill command that BM offers (though not 100% sure how effective it is as its not 1/2 as nice as the live version and doesn't heal your pet either) will just have to keep playing with both and see.

This has been my conclusion as well. If Survival had Disengage (and Misdirect for that matter), I'd probably main that but thats too much mobility to lose and Harpoon doesn't make up for all its usefulness. Marks it is.

[Shinryu Masaki]

For me it was a significant drop in dps compared to live. It seemed like about a 20% dps loss.
Anyone else have about the same?

Yeah it's pretty much the same for me. On live I can kill Ultraxion on 25 Heroic in about 10 seconds, while on the PTR I can barely make it past 50% HP before he self destruct in my face. I'm well aware that the number pass hasn't been done yet, but still it's heartbreaking to see.

[13thmaiden]

I'm still bouncing between SV and MM, MM really reminds me of live BM with special shots instead of animal commands. But SV, while its totally different in gameplay being a melee spec, is actually kinda fun, though it really does need the same speed MM has like SB stated up there. I'm still testing them out on PTR to really figure out my favorite, but I know I'll be changing from BM, and that makes me horribly sad. ;_;

[Equeon]

What you want - baby I got it!
What you need - you know I got it!
All I'm asking is for a little respec
When Legion drops (just a little bit)
Hey Blizzard (just a little bit)
When Legion drops, (just a little Bit) Blizzard! (just a little bit)

I ain't gonna do you wrong when it comes
I ain't gonna do you wrong 'cause I don't wanna
All I'm asking is for a little respec when Legion drops (just a little bit)
Blizzard! (just a little bit)
When Legion drops, (just a little bit) yeah! (just a little bit)

I'm about to give you all my money
And all I'm asking in return honey
Is to fix my spec when Legion drops (just a, just a, just a, just a)
Yeah, Blizzard, when Legion drops (just a little bit)
Yeah! (Just a little bit)

(Ho!) your updates... (ho!) sweeter than honey... (ho!) and guess what (ho!) - so is my money! (ho!)
All I want you to do for me is fix it for me when Legion drops (re, re, re, re, re, respec)
Yeah Blizzard fix it for me (just a little bit)
When Legion drops now (just a little bit)

R-E-S-P-E-C find out what it means to me
R-E-S-P-E-C take care, T-C-B oh (Sock it to me)

A little respec, oh yeah (just a little bit)
A little respec (just a little bit)
I get tired (just a little bit)
Keep on tryin' (just a little bit)
You're runnin' out of patches (just a little bit)
And I ain't lyin' (just a little bit)
(Re, re, re, re) 'spec
When Legion's here (re, re, re, re)
Or you might release it (respec, just a little bit)
And find out I'm unsubbed (just a little bit)
I got to have (just a little bit)
A little respec! (just a little bit)

[Lisaara]

Here here! This is very depressing and distressing. I've stuck with BM even when it was laughable in Wrath, but this seems 10x worse than back then.

[Rawr]

Wow what a surprise, only PvP tweeks.

[Rhyela]

Equeon, I'm tempted to make that my sig.

[Zulmalakhan]

my apologies, I was not explicit enough when I wrote
- it will get throwing weapons and change to a melee animation with said weapon ( they will be dual wielded throwing weapons most likely, 1 in each hand, 2 spears, 2 axes, 2 daggers, 2 glaives like all the iconic throwing units have )
It means they are still ranged, not melee, the class will use dual wielded throwing weapons and when the target gets in melee range the attack animation will have a cosmetic change from throwing to normal melee hits, it is just for cosmetic realism though, make no mistake it is very much a ranged dps class

Also I meant to fit Rexxar's playstyle from Hots that is using throwing weapons and goes from throwing them at range to fighting with them in melee (animation-wise) depending on how close or far his target is, not his traditional melee only style from WC3/WoW, wich ( aside from only using 2 handed weapons and not dual wield ) is indeed represented in survival

yeah, you know... I don't think so.
If that were the direction Blizz went with BM hunters, they'd probably lose a hell of a lot of subscribers.
I have three accounts, all have BM hunters, and I can guarantee you that if I lost my bow-mog and got stuck with melée weapons, I'd immediately cancel my three subscriptions.

Again...... NOT melee but ranged throwing weapons, the melee attack when enemies get in melee range is COSMETIC ONLY, meaning IT IS RANGED NOT MELEE, and who said you couldn't transmog bows and crossbows and guns over throwing weapons? they would both be ranged weapons it would make perfect sense to let you mog over it, especially considering the uproar that some ranged survival players had over going melee, honestly do I really explain that badly ? or do people just don't read long posts?

[Valnaaros]

my apologies, I was not explicit enough when I wrote
- it will get throwing weapons and change to a melee animation with said weapon ( they will be dual wielded throwing weapons most likely, 1 in each hand, 2 spears, 2 axes, 2 daggers, 2 glaives like all the iconic throwing units have )
It means they are still ranged, not melee, the class will use dual wielded throwing weapons and when the target gets in melee range the attack animation will have a cosmetic change from throwing to normal melee hits, it is just for cosmetic realism though, make no mistake it is very much a ranged dps class

Also I meant to fit Rexxar's playstyle from Hots that is using throwing weapons and goes from throwing them at range to fighting with them in melee (animation-wise) depending on how close or far his target is, not his traditional melee only style from WC3/WoW, wich ( aside from only using 2 handed weapons and not dual wield ) is indeed represented in survival

yeah, you know... I don't think so.
If that were the direction Blizz went with BM hunters, they'd probably lose a hell of a lot of subscribers.
I have three accounts, all have BM hunters, and I can guarantee you that if I lost my bow-mog and got stuck with melée weapons, I'd immediately cancel my three subscriptions.

Again...... NOT melee but ranged throwing weapons, the melee attack when enemies get in melee range is COSMETIC ONLY, meaning IT IS RANGED NOT MELEE, and who said you couldn't transmog bows and crossbows and guns over throwing weapons? they would both be ranged weapons it would make perfect sense to let you mog over it, especially considering the uproar that some ranged survival players had over going melee, honestly do I really explain that badly ? or do people just don't read long posts?

There are a few issues with that. One) they would have to make either new throwing weapons for old quests and as an heirloom. Two) certain spells are tied to certain animations. That is why rogues can xmog daggers to maces. If they cast Mutilate, for example, it would appear as though they are trying to stab with a mace. Three) They would be making bows, guns, and crossbows for just MM.

[Bendak]

MM is offering better soloing

This is the part that I think bugs me the most. I don't know what possessed Blizzard to do this. To me, it makes perfect sense that BM would have the best pet tanking. I mean, at the start of development MM didn't even *get* a pet, and now they get two taunting tanks which can swap back and forth to split the damage. Plus they can put their main pet on tenacity without losing any real damage. This is the total opposite of the whole Legion Class Fantasy™ stuff that initiated these complete spec reworks in the first place.

I think the easiest band-aid is to give BM more pet healing, but I've sent in that feedback about a dozen times so far (twitter, blogs, forums, in-game suggestions, etc.) so there's not much else to do but scratch my head in bewilderment.

About the only thing I'm happy with is the new pet stuff. The class itself did not need to be torn apart and put back together.