Pet Usage Flowchart and Ability Spreadsheet

[Protego]

For pets, does the raid check list add-on show the 4 (currently) pets that Hunters have on them? Or just the 1 summoned/current pet? Thank you!

[Malazee]

An update today for the crowd control abilities. I think I got them all, but of course I'm almost certain to have missed a bunch of them. Anyia and I would definitely appreciate a few more sets of eyes checking over our work! I decided to go with a combination of what Anyia and I had discussed (separating them based on race restrictions) and what Taleden suggested. Here's what I did:

• added Hunter's Tranquilizing Shot to Remove Magic (Offensive) - D'oh, thanks Toh!
• removed Warlock's Conflagrate from Disorients
• added new category for Immobilizes/Incapacitates (they're sort of different things I guess, but Sap is the only incapacitate in the game afaik so it doesn't get its own category... *shakesfist*)
• added new category for Fears
• added Rogue's Cheap Shot and Kidney Shot to Stuns
• added Mage's Polymorph to Disorient
• added Shaman's Hex to Disorient
• changed Curse of Exhaustion from Warlock to Affliction Warlock
• designated between crowd control that can and cannot be reapplied (the biggest difference between true CCs and "sorta" CCs, IMO)
• specified race-restricted crowd controls

Sorry to keep you working so hard, Anyia! Everyone I talk to is loving your mod, BTW, especially my raid leader. I love it, too! <3 <3

[Kalliope]

Sap and Repentance are both incapacitates. It wouldn't be alone!

Oh, and allow me to venture forth that there is also the horror effect. It's basically a stationary target who's feared.

[Malazee]

Sap and Repentance are both incapacitates. It wouldn't be alone!

Oh, and allow me to venture forth that there is also the horror effect. It's basically a stationary target who's feared.

Oooohkay... I guess incapacitates can have a separate category. But actually, standing still isn't exclusive to horror effects. Death Coil is a horror, but still causes the target to flee, and warriors have a glyph that will cause targets to remain stationary during intimidating shout, which is still just a regular fear. Only psychic horror, afaik, causes the target(s) to stand still. The only real difference between horrors and fears is that they are on separate DRs.

Anyway, quick fix:

• Moved sap to new Incapacitate category
• Moved repentance to new Incapacitate category

[taleden]

This is what I have on my list of incapacitates (minus item effects, like bombs and rocket helmets):

Bind Elemental (Shaman)
Freezing Trap (Hunter)
Gouge (Rogue)
Hibernate (Druid)
Hungering Cold (Death Knight)
Intimidating Shout (Warrior)
Repentance (Paladin)
Sap (Rogue)
Seduction (Warlock: Succubus)
Shackle Undead (Priest)
Wyvern Sting (Hunter)

You could argue that some of these are "sleeps" but I consider them equivalent, since the target doesn't move and they're broken by damage (afaik). Breaking on damage is also, I think, what makes things like Freezing Trap different from Banish/Cyclone; but maybe for your purposes that distinction isn't material.

[taleden]

A few other suggestions from my (old) lists, some of which may be out of date:

Stun = Gnaw (Death Knight: Ghoul), Holy Wrath (Paladin), Intercept (Warrior), Maim (Druid; all stuns are also interrupts, of course), Pounce (Druid), War Stomp (Tauren racial)
Disorient = Holy Word: Chastise (Priest)
Silence = Garrote (Rogue), Gag Order (Warrior; affects Heroic Throw too, not just Shield Bash)
Root = Counterattack (Hunter), Glyph of Hamstring (Warrior), Improved Hamstring (Warrior)
Fear = Howl of Terror (Warlock), Scare Beast (Hunter)

I'd argue that Freezing Trap, Bind Elemental and Shackle Undead are incapacitates, since they break on damage; Cyclone and Banish are unique in that they do not break on damage (because the victim is immune to damage). Also, I think the Paladin ability is called Turn Evil, not Turn Undead.

[Kalliope]

AFAIK, Intimidating Shout doesn't break on damage.

Also, Psychic Scream can be glyphed to cause a stand-in-horror effect rather than the running around feared effect. I'd still maintain that it's not a very effective CC in an instance since the priest would have to be on top of the target being feared for it to work.

Holy Word: Chastise is a stun, even though it says disorient in the tooltip.

And yes, the paladin ability was changed from Turn Undead to Turn Evil when demons were added as valid targets for the spell.

[taleden]

AFAIK, Intimidating Shout doesn't break on damage.

Yeah, I think I based that on the old behavior of incapacitating the primary target (which broke on damage) and fearing 4 other targets (which didn't). I take it now it's just a single-target fear?

Also, Psychic Scream can be glyphed to cause a stand-in-horror effect rather than the running around feared effect. I'd still maintain that it's not a very effective CC in an instance since the priest would have to be on top of the target being feared for it to work.

It looks like there are two different SpellIDs for the two effects; standard fleeing and glyphed frozen. As for CC, that's true for raid planning purposes, so maybe it doesn't belong here; I have it on my list for on-screen display purposes.

Holy Word: Chastise is a stun, even though it says disorient in the tooltip.

Good to know, thanks.

[Kalliope]

AFAIK, Intimidating Shout doesn't break on damage.

Yeah, I think I based that on the old behavior of incapacitating the primary target (which broke on damage) and fearing 4 other targets (which didn't). I take it now it's just a single-target fear?

Oooh, I was thinking of the main target. If the off targets break based on damage, then it's still applicable, sorry!

[Anyia]

Note to self and Malazee (based on comment on Curse):
Innervate now works off the caster's mana, so Feral innervate is apparently not very useful. Probably best to list only resto/balance druids as providing burst replenishment.

[Sarayana]

Note to self and Malazee (based on comment on Curse):
Innervate now works off the caster's mana, so Feral innervate is apparently not very useful. Probably best to list only resto/balance druids as providing burst replenishment.

Yeah, I noticed this last night. Tank innervated me, and it didn't even give me half my mana back.

[Malazee]

Yeah, Feral innervate is crappy. Restores like 2000 mana... you're better off just chugging a mana pot. I'll specify that Innervate is just from Balance and Resto durids. Cat is for fite. (rawr)

Alright, trying to settle the Great Crowd Control Category Debate of 2010... this is what I've come up with (sorry for the super long image):



Now, Taleden might have a bone to pick with me about cyclone and banish, because targets affected by those "stuns" are immune to damage, but I think that goes a little beyond the purview of Anyia's mod, TBH. I could also be convinced to change the "immobilize" category to an "incapacitate" category if someone thinks that's better and can give me a good argument for it.

Oh and before anyone calls me on it... I'm considering Psychic Horror to be the 7 extra seconds of disarm after the fear. The fear part is just Psychic Scream. And Intimidating Shout is listed as both a fear (aoe) and a stun (single target).

And if there are any abilities missing from that chart (I did add a bunch more), then it should be no problem to classify any additional abilities in the same way (what's the target's mobility and consciousness during the CC, and how does it break?).

I'll wait until we've all agreed on some categories before updating the original CC chart. OK... now bring on the debate! *Puts on riot gear*

[Sarayana]

Good lord. What happened here? We went from a flowchart (and a very pretty one, I might add!!) to a complete index of all buffs, debuffs, and crowd control spells in the game?? Amazing work!

My lazy (and uninformed about most classes I don't play) arse greatly appreciates your efforts, Zee and Anyia. <3

[Cactuscat]

To start, I'd just like to say how incredible I think these charts are, and the addon is spectacular as well. Even with the inspection bug in place, it's still awesome to have an easy-reference chart in-game, and I love it.

I won't deny - I was just TOO lazy to dig through all eight pages of this thread, so I'm not sure if this has been addressed or not, but... Carrion Birds have Demoralizing Screech - the physical damage reduction debuff - and are listed as having it on the "Pet Abilities" table, but they aren't down on the "Raid Buffs" table, where the bear is.

Also, I was wondering why a few of the buffs listed as "Raid Buffs" aren't on the flowchart - again, Demoralizing Screech is a good example. Did you miss this one off just because you only had bears down as providers?

But again, I'm thoroughly impressed with your work here, and insanely jealous I didn't do it myself.

[Malazee]

To start, I'd just like to say how incredible I think these charts are, and the addon is spectacular as well. Even with the inspection bug in place, it's still awesome to have an easy-reference chart in-game, and I love it.

Thank you very much! Anyia has worked very hard on that addon and I'm grateful for it as well!

I won't deny - I was just TOO lazy to dig through all eight pages of this thread, so I'm not sure if this has been addressed or not, but... Carrion Birds have Demoralizing Screech - the physical damage reduction debuff - and are listed as having it on the "Pet Abilities" table, but they aren't down on the "Raid Buffs" table, where the bear is.

Good eye, I think that's a remnant from when I wasn't sure whether Carrion Birds' ability would be changed or not. I'll fix that with my next update.

Also, I was wondering why a few of the buffs listed as "Raid Buffs" aren't on the flowchart - again, Demoralizing Screech is a good example. Did you miss this one off just because you only had bears down as providers?

But again, I'm thoroughly impressed with your work here, and insanely jealous I didn't do it myself.

Well the carrion bird and bear I left off of the flowchart specifically because they bring a buff that all four of the tanks already have. Since it's a flowchart for raiding, I assume that you'll never be without a tank and that the demoralizing roar/screech debuff would always be redundant. It's not like back in BC when the debuffs used to stack (inc Brutallus carrion-bird-screeching nightmares). I could have put it on the chart, but it really would have just been taking up space. For soloing though, bears and carrion birds make excellent AOE tanks (as do worms)! The reduced attack speed debuff from Foxes (Vixen?) and Tallstriders can be left off the flowchart for this same reason.

The other debuff I left off (reduced casting speed), I just didn't judge as extremely valuable -- or at least not valuable enough to warrant bringing it over, say, "whatever pet is prettiest." But this honestly is just wishful thinking on my part. If I want to be a true min/maxer, I really should update the flowchart to include it.

Worms and Chimaeras have AOE attacks which could be helpful in raiding, but there's not really a specific time when I'd be comfortable saying they should be used over other pets. It would have to be a time when all other buffs are covered AND the fight has a lot of immobile adds that the hunter is supposed to be attacking. It's completely a judgment call and really shouldn't go up on the flowchart.

Spirit Beasts' healing ability got left off the flowchart entirely because it's (let's face it) a gimmick with no real value in raiding. 5mans maybe (one day I will put together a 5man hunter group with a turtle tank and SBeast healer...), but not in a raid. I'd be happy to argue this point from a 5-year raid healing veteran's point of view to anyone that wants to disagree, but not in this thread.

But yeah, tangents aside, thank you very much for your compliments! I hope you continue to find Anyia's and my work helpful!

[taleden]

Now, Taleden might have a bone to pick with me about cyclone and banish, because targets affected by those "stuns" are immune to damage, but I think that goes a little beyond the purview of Anyia's mod, TBH. I could also be convinced to change the "immobilize" category to an "incapacitate" category if someone thinks that's better and can give me a good argument for it.

Well, it depends on the purpose of your chart. Since you seem mostly focused on raid planning, then I think your categorization is appropriate because you'll be using them as CC precisely so you can attack *other* mobs instead. My interest in (de)buff categories is for real-time monitoring, which might be used for i.e. arenas, where it is very material whether you can currently damage the target or not. Different needs.

But to that end, you might find it more useful to further categorize CC by duration. A 5 second gouge isn't terribly useful for pre-planned raid-environment crowd control, compared to a 30-second or 1-minute effect. Yeah you can set up rotations to chain the short-duration abilities, but that's pretty rarely helpful as a standard strategy for a fight; instead it's just nice to have those abilities handy for controlling mistakes and random chance.

I would, however, suggest renaming "immobilize" to "incapacitate" simply because IIRC that's the terminology used by blizzard in their posts and tooltips. Or do they not use that term anymore?

Other suggestions:

I believe Frost Trap is now called Ice Trap.
Does Thunder Clap still slow movement? It looks like now it's only an attack speed debuff.

Here are some additional slow/snare effects, although many are short-term and may not be useful for raid planning: Earthbind (Shaman), Blade Twisting (Rogue), Blast Wave (Mage), Concussive Barrage (Hunter), Cone of Cold (Mage), Deadly Throw (Rogue), Frostbolt (Mage), Frostbrand Attack (Shaman), Frostfire Bolt (Mage), Waylay (Rogue), Wing Clip (Hunter)

And another stun: Throwdown (Warrior)

[Kalliope]

I could also be convinced to change the "immobilize" category to an "incapacitate" category if someone thinks that's better and can give me a good argument for it.

Well, they're two different concepts. Immobilized characters can still cast (counterattack, improved hamstring, etc.) and incapacitated ones can't (sap, repentance, etc.). Immobilization doesn't break on damage, but incapacitates do. To me, "immobilize" is another way of saying "root."

I can add another wrinkle to this and point out that some immobilizations and incapacitates can be dispelled and others can't be, but that's only going to be an issue on a PvPesque fight like the champions in ToC.

Thank you again for the fantastic work on this!

[Anyia]

For pets, does the raid check list add-on show the 4 (currently) pets that Hunters have on them? Or just the 1 summoned/current pet? Thank you!

I just realized nobody answered your question - RaidChecklist only takes into account the active pet(s) of the player and group members. It's not possible to obtain information on not-quite-stabled pets from other players, and it also seems to fit better into the view of RaidChecklist showing what is currently covered. It's easy enough to mouse-over a grayed out entry and see whether it's something that someone in the group could be asked to bring.

[Anyia]

Alright, trying to settle the Great Crowd Control Category Debate of 2010... this is what I've come up with (sorry for the super long image):

Wow!
That's... awesome. And long. *scratches head and wonders how to sensibly get all of that into RaidChecklist without overwhelming people, including self*

I'll wait until we've all agreed on some categories before updating the original CC chart. OK... now bring on the debate! *Puts on riot gear*

I think there are at least two different "goals" at play. On the one hand there is the PvP oriented aspect where even a short stun/disorient/whatever can make a huge difference, and on the other hand there is the slower-paced PvE aspect where the emphasis is more on reliable (i.e. longer lasting) abilities. To cast my mind back to BC, it wasn't all that relevant whether I brought Scatter Shot to the run, but the Freezing Trap on the other hand was crucial. As taleden said, the duration does come into play a lot too.

I'm wondering, and I definitely don't know if this is the way to go or not, but I'm wondering whether perhaps a sensible approach might be to split it into PvE and PvP sections (or a Common-Crowd-Control and If-you-really-want-to-know sections). I'm just looking at it from the usability aspect instead of the mechanics aspect here. If you're being hammered by a pull and want to see who could/should be CC'ing, it is more user friendly to have it grouped by long-lasting CC for that unit type (undead, humanoid, etc).

So a hypothetical view of the RaidChecklist might be:

Code: Select all

+----------+----------+----------------+-------------------
| Buffs    | Debuffs  | Crowd Control  | Stuns/Interrupts/etc
|  Kings   |  Sunder  |  Humanoids     |  Root
|  Stam    |  +Bleed  |  Undead        |  Interrupt
|  +5 Crit |  -Healing|  Beasts        |  Silence
...

Thoughts?

[Cactuscat]

Well the carrion bird and bear I left off of the flowchart specifically because they bring a buff that all four of the tanks already have.

Ha! Yes, I have a good enough eye to see that Carrion Bird was missing from that table, but not a good enough eye to see that all four tanks were present!