Finally Its About Time - Pit Bull Bill

[Chrizesu]

Someone once told me that I should put down my sweet little beagle down just because she killed a chicken. She HATES chickens.

[zedxrgal]

Again you're not understanding the point. It's less RAW FOOD more, taste of blood via ATTACKING something. IE ATTACKING something and getting the thrill/taste for it, not just the blood. but it's easier to coin the term Getting a taste of blood as usually once that happens most dogs do warp. Mean I even had a Borzoi that warped a bit once he did, he never bit really, then once he bit me he seemed to like continuing to be 'rough' and get 'rougher' until we finally had to just rehome him [this ontop of the teasing he received from nieghborhood kids too]

Then if I am understanding you correctly you're saying that the dog starts 'attacking' or biting and potentially killing for sport. For the sheer pleasure of it. Which is a crock of shit. (no offense meant) There are only THREE animal species on this planet that have been proven to attack and kill for fun /sport. Bottle nose dolphins, chimpanzees and humans. Dogs have NEVER been proven of this.

ALL hunting breeds are mouthy and bitey. Borzoi are a hunting breed. But in my 17+ years of working with animals I've never heard of a dog biting purely for the pleasure of it. Dog psyche simply does not work that way.


A bit of a somewhat side note: Of the 56 dogs from the Michael Vik case only three were not rehomed. They had to be destroyed. There were two females and a male. Both the females were to sick and had to be euthanised. The one male was extremely food, human and animal aggressive. So really one dog out of 56 couldn't be places simply because of what had been done to him.

[Sukurachi]

one simple fact that gets lost in a lot of these tirades/defenses for/against pit bulls and dogs of that breed, is that a number of basic canine behaviours have been entirely bred out of the breed.

The most important of these being the "white neck" reaction.
When a dog submits during a dog fight, it will turn on its back and present its neck (most dog breeds have a white/light patch on their neck), the simple sight of this lighter patch elicits a "halt" reaction from its attacker. If you've ever seen a dominance fight among wolves, you would see the vanquished dog perform this turning behaviour, presenting its neck to the winner. And you would also see the winner STOP its attack at that point.

The problem with pit bulls and dogs in that family is that this particular behaviour has been all but bred out. This also makes them formidable fighting dogs.

You can say all you want that a pit bull can be as sweet as any other dog, but this fundamental behavioral change in the breed is a serious problem.

[Dakonic]

So what your saying is pit bulls dont do that at all?
Well first start is "pit bull" is not a breed, and most fights they get in are NOT dominance fights, and no basic dog behavior has not been bred out of them. As a Bevahiorist in training and owning 6, I can tell you they do use all forms of dog body language, and I have seen pits get in fights and stop when the other dog surreneders.
The trait that was bred INTO them for their label as "best fighting dog" is tenacity, they have to be conifident and give it their all 24/7, this same trait makes them excel in most sports, inculding police work and search and rescue, this can be a great trait in good hands, but it can be horrible in bad hands.

[zedxrgal]

Well first start is "pit bull" is not a breed

100% false. The American Pit Bull Terrier was recognized and cataloged as a full breed in 1898 by the UKC (United Kennel Club). The only organization that doesn't recognize them as a breed to this day is the AKC (American Kennel Club).

Probably the most famous ABPT was Petey. Petey was the dog from The Little Rascals. This was back in 1929.

[Dakonic]

Well first start is "pit bull" is not a breed

100% false. The American Pit Bull Terrier was recognized and cataloged as a full breed in 1898 by the UKC (United Kennel Club). The only organization that doesn't recognize them as a breed to this day is the AKC (American Kennel Club).

Probably the most famous ABPT was Petey. Petey was the dog from The Little Rascals. This was back in 1929.

Uhm did I every say American Pit bull terrier is not a breed? NO I did not. "Pit bull" is not a breed, for the government there are over 20 different breeds that are labeled as pit bulls, for knowledgeable dog owners there are 3 main breeds called pit bulls.

http://www.pbrc.net/breedinfo.html Scroll down to the red.
http://www.pitbullsontheweb.com/petbull/legislation.php

Even Wikipedia states this, now many say Wikipedia is a bad source of information, it is a heavily regulated site any false information is removed immediately.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pit_Bull

[zedxrgal]

Ok. Well. The thread is about the American Pit Bull Terrier is it not????? So wouldn't that mean that the term or words "pit bull" is in reference to the APBT in this thread?????

That is what I am referring to. The thread is in reference to pit bulls, which is yes the slang term given to the APBT. If you're talking in reference to certain bully breeds as a collective for the term 'pit bulls' then please say so.

Even in the article itself says:

“a breed that is commonly known as a ‘pit bull’ dog”

That, to me is in reference to the APBT. NOT an AmStaff (American Staffordshire terrier) or the Staffordshire Terrier.

Also on the website you linked written in red this is what it says:

*”Pit bull” is NOT a breed. It's a generic term often used to describe all dogs with similar traits and characteristics known to the public as "pit bulls." When we use the term “pit bull” here, it should be understood to encompass American Pit Bull Terriers, American Staffordshire Terriers, and Staffordshire Bull Terriers

So that website is basically saying that for them, the term 'pit bull' is meant to describe three separate breeds. But the bans do not state the pit bull breeds by what those websites are calling a slang or nickname for a APBT.

I personally and many others I know do not trust Wikipedia. Why might you ask. Simply that anyone can enter information or have information posted to Wikipedia that may or may not be true. Hence why also most college professors will also not accept papers submitted from Wikipedia. Which yes you've stated but it's not that heavily regulated and controlled.

I'm not trying to be rude in all this honestly just stating things from my personal views and learnings. Even in Vet tech school the term 'pit bull' was fully meant as the American Pit Bull Terrier which is a breed. There is no other leading information in reference to any other breed or slang for multiple breeds that look alike.

[Dakonic]

I am not trying to sound rude either, but no one specified that, that is what the term would be used for in this thread.

*”Pit bull” is NOT a breed. It's a generic term often used to describe all dogs with similar traits and characteristics known to the public as "pit bulls." When we use the term “pit bull” here, it should be understood to encompass American Pit Bull Terriers, American Staffordshire Terriers, and Staffordshire Bull Terriers

This comment does state that they use it on their website, but before that it says very clearly it is not a breed, they were just stating which breeds in encompasses on their site, because most governments can use to term to describe over 20 different breeds.

Again not trying to be rude.

[Tirryna]

BSL are one of my great dislikes in life... I mean, many of us were raised with Pit-Bulls around us and not noticed, there are 4-5 different type of "Pit-bull", the Stafford Terrier being the most popular associated with Pit bulls... Remember Chance from "Homeward Bound"?... American pitbull... The Little Rascals... Their dog, Petie, a Pit Bull...

Just, I love Pit-bulls so much... I've gotten attacked by toy-breeds and small terrier breed, but I've never personally met a viscous pit-bull. My mom has 2... They are my sisters... Lilly , whom I spent my teen-hood and much of my adulthood with, is a papered American Pit-Bull Terrier...I could never ever imagine her attacking a person...My sister's Stafford-mix, Jojo...

Lets just say she give you a look like "If you don't hug me, hold me, and love me, I'll shrivel away into teeny-tiny bits!"

Sorry, I'm very strongly opinionated on this subject

"Deed not the Breed"

[Acherontia]

I know this is a bit of a necro, but it looks like the replies are coming pretty far apart, and I wanted to comment.

Pits are regulated (in the US anyway) as "pit bulls." Most often, the authorities have no idea what this means. Animal control officials in the US receive little to no training in most cases, especially on how to differentiate between breeds. This leads to two major issues:

* "Pit bull" Legislation
* Wolfdog Legislation

There have been hundreds of cases of people who lose a perfectly friendly, stable Husky (most famous I recall was a purebred, papered red dog with blue eyes that weighed 60 lbs), Pointer mix, labrador mix or other random dog, and the Animal Control idiots mistaking them for wolfdogs or "pit bull-type dogs" and immediately euthanizing these "illegal" animals. That's one of the biggest issues of BSL for me. If you take one of the "Which of these is a pit bull?" tests, it's almost impossible to score 100% even if you know the breeds. American Staffordshire Terriers, American Pitbull Terriers, Staffordshire Bull Terriers, "American Bullies," American Bulldogs (working lines) and so forth are all called "pit bulls" under legislation. You have papers proving it's an Amstaff? They will generally put it down anyway--it's a "pit bull" to them.

Never mind the fact that the APBTs themselves pass temperament tests at massively high rates, shaming golden retrievers and cockers (can't stand these, no offense cocker fans). Never mind that there are APBTs out there that have been removed from illegal places and gone on to be police dogs. I personally knew a dog that jumped down a well where an old woman had fallen, keeping her warm and barking until help came. Then he got sent to an animal sanctuary to live in solitary confinement for the rest of his life--because he was a pit. Granted, the woman was too old to care for him, and so paid for him to stay there rather than be euthanized--but still. The media is at fault, bad dog owners are at fault. The dogs aren't.

Long story short, I'm REALLY glad to see that someplace is considering repealing such a foolish law.

On a related note--the discussion about dog behavior. First off, all dogs can be rehabbed. The "taste of blood" thing is indeed a myth. Whoever it was who said that "chase aggression" and "people aggression" is different is right; that wolfhound owner is correct in not understanding the dog's aggression. Because it is loose chasing rabbits there is no reason it should be attacking its owner--although I very much disapprove of the former anyway!! There's prey drive (the chase, the kill), territorial aggression, and THEN there's social aggression, which includes dog and people fighting.

Bites on children can be either--a fleeing child, especially laughing or screaming, is often seen as prey. A child than goes up to a dog and flings his arms around the dog's neck and kisses the dog's head is seen as aggressively challenging the dog, who may react by trying to dominate the kid (this last is 90% of dog bites). The media yelling about how pit bulls are "vicious fighting dogs" seem to miss the fact that in order for a "fighting dog" to be able to be handled in the pit, it must have 0 human aggression.

Anyway, one more note on Ohio's pit bull rules, from their own law & backing up what I said about telling breeds apart:

What is a pit bull?
Ohio law states that Dog Wardens are the only authorities that can legally designate whether a dog is a “pit bull-type dog.” Breeds of dogs that fall under the classification of “pit bull” in Ohio include (but are not limited to):

* American Pit Bull Terrier
* American Staffordshire Terrier
* Staffordshire Bull Terrier
* Any other purebred or mixed breed dog whose appearance (looks or physical characteristics) are predominantly like the list of breeds above (or a combination of breeds from the above list

By the way-- if you ever see a user on Youtube called Zupf, or something like that--it's a conglomeration of pit bull haters who post anti-pit bull propoganda that users generally can't comment on: usually fear-mongering or full of hate. I mean, seriously...

[Ryai]

Old reply is old. And also I never said the wolfhound reported was attacking people. It was having ANIMAL AGGRESSION not people aggression. Unless I faffed up, but the wolf hound was aggressive to other animals, even the other hounds.

Then if I am understanding you correctly you're saying that the dog starts 'attacking' or biting and potentially killing for sport. For the sheer pleasure of it. Which is a crock of shit. (no offense meant) There are only THREE animal species on this planet that have been proven to attack and kill for fun /sport. Bottle nose dolphins, chimpanzees and humans. Dogs have NEVER been proven of this.

Maybe you should re-read. As I said once Yawny started biting me, he continued this action no matter how many times we tried to correct him and no matter how much my mother even tried to 'hit him with the rolled up newspaper' routine. He kept doing it, and he kept getting more vicious about it, until a time when he actually nearly poked a fucking hole above my eye because he did NOT hold himself back and just attacked me all about to get the ball from me, instead of waiting for me to throw it. Yawny seemed to delight in being a rough, abusive dog and we finally had to get rid of him because of this. Now while part of this was interaction from outside forces, namely little fucks who could not respect an animal, Yawny is also at fault because no matter what we tried- and trust me, we tried and I loved that dog until that final incident, nothing worked. He was an unsafe animal. And really, even before the kids teasing him, he wasn't that great a dog to begin with.

ALL hunting breeds are mouthy and bitey. Borzoi are a hunting breed. But in my 17+ years of working with animals I've never heard of a dog biting purely for the pleasure of it. Dog psyche simply does not work that way.

God no, only BAD people allow a dog to be bitey without correcting it. Or attempting to. We attempted to correct it- and my mother was such a good dog owner and handler that she once raised a wolfhound, never had him neutured and he NEVER mounted a female in heat. Even when one of my aunt's dogs were throwing herself at him, he did NOT jump her. Now this woman, this woman who could teach a wolfhound to do something that guard dogs are trained to do evidently, could NOT get this dog to stop biting. Yawny, imo delighted in being rough and biting. And as I said he kept getting worse. He never bit the cats. He always bit me.


So yeah I'm going to stick by my; Once a dog gets a taste for blood/for killing/for the thrill of it, it's either A: going to remain dangerous or B: going to have to be homed in a special case by case fashion.

[Acherontia]

It was having ANIMAL AGGRESSION not people aggression....

As I said once Yawny started biting me, he continued this action no matter how many times we tried to correct him... He never bit the cats. He always bit me.

Are we talking about two different dogs here? I thought it was one. What I read was, because the dog was running loose and chasing rabbits, he became unsafe and vicious and she couldn't figure out why, which was just silly because it was obviously the rabbits in your opinion, etc. ? And yeah, I did say it was 'a bit of a necro.' Apologies for that

From the sounds of it he might have just been screwed up hormonally. If there's behavioral problems that are inconsistent or "abnormal" the first place to start is by looking at possible medical reasons.

Behavioral issues can -always- be corrected.

[Dakonic]

http://www.understand-a-bull.com/Findth ... ll_v3.html

[Raydex-of-the-dawn]

...My dog is a pit bull/rottie cross, with a little lab. He's the sweetest pup you'd ever meet (though a bit timid. He likes to hide when people come over.) and gets along perfectly with our little Lhasa Apso/Maltese/Miniture Poodle cross. They're the sweetest pups around. They were also bred to be nonagressive to humans - because seriously, if you take an injured animal and handle it roughly (as was common) it's going to attack. They bred such out of the dogs.