Horde/Alliance 'Evil' debate

[Danielfboone]

here's my 2 cents worth.....working hand -in-hand with demons = evil yes?

Are you just referring to Warlocks here or are you alluding to the Orcs being enslaved by the blood of Mannoroth?

Then the only ones that can be called good are the RACES that don't have warlocks.

So, Night Elves, Trolls, Draenei, Tauren and Dwarves? The very fact that both factions have Warlocks shows that neither can be considered "good" and the other "evil". However, from WoWWiki:

"In most societies, the warlocks now live on the fringe of civilization, tolerated but not trusted. Human warlocks meet in secret in the basement of a bar in Stormwind. Thrall has expressed discomfort with the warlocks but understands the necessities in using them so he has allowed them the Cleft of Shadow. Conventional spell casters often see the warlock's magic as a vain attempt at increasing their own power.

Although many that consort with demons fall to darkness, the warlocks of the Horde and the Alliance advocate bending demonic forces to one's will without succumbing to complete corruption."

BTW I don't count NEs since they are also naga, satyr, and evolved from trolls thanks to the original moonwell.

You mean DEvolved from Trolls

There is no definitive proof that the NE's evolved from Trolls. That is merely a theory. The generally accepted fact is that the NE's are the oldest race on Azeroth.

And, the Warlocks are far more accepted in the Horde than in the Alliance, especially by the Undead. I believe the only reason there even are Alliance Warlocks is that Blizzard decided they were too much fun to play and too powerful to only be allowed in the Horde. Consequently they had to come up with ways to have them be of both factions.

[Danielfboone]

Interestingly, when I started playing WoW I did start as Alliance and I found the Alliance to be corrupt, dishonest, underhanded, backstabbing and monumentally hypocritical. They really are a two-faced collective, portraying themselves as all that is good and pure while speaking and acting in the opposite manner

I've been playing Alliance now for almost 4 years and I don't see any of this.

I'm not going to get into the whole lore debate, except to say that I agree that neither side is "good" and neither is "evil". Blizzard has gone through great pains to show us that "good" and "evil" don't exist in the warcraft universe.

Anyway, my comment was to the above. I'm assuming you've never quested in Westfall? If not, go do so. And really read the quests. Alliance can indeed as corrupt and two-faced as any horde character.

The Humans you go up against in Westfall are not part of the Alliance. They are a rebel faction, the same as the bad Taurens in Thousand Needles, the Fel Orcs, and the other outcast and rebel factions of every race in the game.

[Saturo]

Actually, several other races have been confirmed as older than the Night Elves.
Furbolgs, Murlocs and Trolls to name just a few.

And I think he's referring to the backstory of the Defias. Basically, they rebuilt Stormwind, but nobody wanted to pay them, so now they are all rogues. The Defias Brotherhood in a nutshell.

[Vephriel]

The Humans you go up against in Westfall are not part of the Alliance. They are a rebel faction, the same as the bad Taurens in Thousand Needles, the Fel Orcs, and the other outcast and rebel factions of every race in the game.

Just a pointer, you don't have to quote the huge quotes-within-quotes, and you could have said both of your responses without double posting.

Anyways, I think you're missing the point. You started this debate just saying that the Horde were outright evil. Many have posted very informative, constructive counter-arguments and valid points to show that Azerothian factions are not black and white.

We realize that the Defias are not part of the Alliance, but they are humans and they came from the Alliance. Likewise there are groups from the Horde who are not part of it, but are the same race. It's to prove that no matter which faction or race, there are going to be both good and bad individuals.

Don't just throw a blanket term over something when many different sides can be disputed with facts.

[Danielfboone]

I never said the Horde was outright evil. I said they were more evil than the Alliance. Not as much as before WoW came along but the difference is still there. The one race I have never even made a character of is the Orcs. I just can't bring myself to play one. The Taurens I like and the Undead are a lot of fun to play.

WoW has clouded a lot of the lore that existed before it came on the scene and I believe, as I have said previously, that it was done to make Horde characters more acceptable to play. Everything I have said is based not on comparatively recently introduced "shades of grey", but rather on boiling it all down to it's simplest terms. From the beginnings of the Warcraft Universe, the Horde races, especially the Orcs, were looked on as the bad guys and I don't think that has changed. They have simply been made more sympathetic and therefore more acceptable. And yes, a lot of this comes from other fantasy lore that preceded Warcraft but so what? Warcraft is an amalgamation of many different fantasy worlds. Tolkien's Middle Earth, Norse Mythology, and other assorted myths and legends.

None of this was meant to suggest in any way that people shouldn't play Horde because they're bad. I play some Horde toons and It's fun to see things from the other side. I started out as Horde but I always accepted hat I was on the darker side of the equation by doing so.

BTW, I'm glad to see that was made a seperate thread from the one about the upcoming movie.

[Vephriel]

I never said the Horde was outright evil.

Well, from your first post it was pretty apparent that that's exactly what you thought. I do enjoy debating things like this, and I'm not trying to make the Horde seem like rainbows and butterflies because I can honestly see both factions as grey. It's just the way you phrased your initial paragraph really came off as more preachy and stereotyped without supporting arguments for your claims.

Obviously I'm going to be more biased towards the Horde; they're simply the faction that I prefer. However to make a statement like "Come on people, the Horde IS basically evil." just seem ignorant and presumptuous. It's like telling us there's no other option, that we're all wrong and you're right and you're attempting to push that onto others. That's all I'm saying.

[Anansi]

Theory yes, however the Trolls are older than the Night Elves. Before the Night Elves were on the scene, the Trolls ruled the entirety of the Azerothian landmass (called Kalimdor, and it was one continent). Night Elves did not show up until some Troll explorers discovered the Well Of Eternity, after which a race of savage and ruthless beings, who became the Night Elves, showed up and waged a successful war against both Troll empires. After which point their use of the arcane magic from the Well Of Eternity lured them into allowing the Burning Legion to invade through a portal opened in the Well.
Oops.

There are no facts about an ancestry shared by the Trolls and Night Elves as it is ancient history. However, what is known is that the Trolls did discover the Well Of Eternity and after that an incredibly powerful, savage race of beings which shared many Troll traits appeared and using the magic from the Well managed to destroy the two largest empires ever known, break the continent apart and bring the Burning Legion to Azeroth.
It's rather suspicious that were the Elves there before and so powerful, why were they not the dominant race? And to be numerous enough to destroy two world-spanning Empires did neither the Trolls nor the Aqir even know about them or war with them? But there were no Night Elves until the discovery and drinking from the Well. An act that changed the discovering Trolls into creatures of great power which gave rise to the Night Elves.

So, the Trolls are the oldest race having culture, civilization and empire before the Night Elves even existed.

I never said the Horde was outright evil. I said they were more evil than the Alliance. Not as much as before WoW came along but the difference is still there.

To quote you:

Come on people, the Horde IS basically evil.

And you have never said, nor even implied, that the Alliance is any way evil.

WoW has clouded a lot of the lore that existed before it came on the scene and I believe, as I have said previously, that it was done to make Horde characters more acceptable to play. Everything I have said is based not on comparatively recently introduced "shades of grey", but rather on boiling it all down to it's simplest terms. From the beginnings of the Warcraft Universe, the Horde races, especially the Orcs, were looked on as the bad guys and I don't think that has changed. They have simply been made more sympathetic and therefore more acceptable. And yes, a lot of this comes from other fantasy lore that preceded Warcraft but so what? Warcraft is an amalgamation of many different fantasy worlds. Tolkien's Middle Earth, Norse Mythology, and other assorted myths and legends.

Not true. Nothing has been clouded. The story has been expanded, details added, histories written, peoples chronicled, events described. Fleshing out histories is not clouding lore (it has only clarified it) and it's not done to make anything more acceptable to players. People were clamouring to play the Horde, and not because of what you describe as being made more "palatable". If you believe they have been made more sympathetic, that's fine, but the reason they are more sympathetic is because the Horde have been given just as much story, personality, background and depth that the Alliance were given and you are seeing that both sides are a people and not just good vs evil tropes.
What you call "boiling down to it's simplest terms" is in truth your own perception, but is not fact.
WoW is very much inspired by many other fantasy tales but it's also very much it's own thing, so you cannot prescribe what may be true in those influences to being true for WoW.

Many of the Alliance do see the Horde as evil, but do the Horde see the Alliance as evil? I do not believe so. The Horde wish to exist on their terms but the Alliance continue to wage war. Thrall has done nothing but strive to arrive at peace between the factions, but King Wrynn now wants nothing to do with that. When Jaina was de-facto leader, her desires for peace matched Thrall's, but now that truce is nearly broken. And if Garrosh takes over he will be more than happy to give Wrynn the war he wants. Point is, nowhere is the Horde trying destroy the Alliance, being the aggressors, or undermining attempts at peace. Those attributes sit solely with the Alliance.

[Jakkra]

I'm enjoying reading your posts, Anansi...

Here's some light reading I'd suggest to those who are curious: Race Origins. ^_^

[Danielfboone]

Everything you just said is the theory I was talking about and is totally unproven and unsupportable. Another theory is that The NE's are the oldest race and have no connection at all with the Trolls but lived in total seclusion before being forced to take part in the conflicts enveloping the world. If you read what it says on that website that was posted above, it was the Elves who discovered the Well of Eternity, not the Trolls. It was that well that made them immortal and larger and stronger than before. There is no evidence that the NE's were ever a savage and vicious race but there is a boatload of it that Trolls were and to a large part, still are.

I'm sorry to have to say it Anansi, but you have almost everything backwards. Just read that website on race origins, it contradicts what you said. And as far as the Alliance being the ones who want to perpetuate the conflict, that is just laughable and again, backwards.

[rubybeam]

just to make a point BEs and NEs were once the same elf raceit it changed a bit over time after the burning legion kinda came into the portal some relised thier mastake and came learned new roots while other stayed with the arcane the rest i'm not so sure baout

[Anansi]

Everything you just said is the theory I was talking about and is totally unproven and unsupportable. Another theory is that The NE's are the oldest race and have no connection at all with the Trolls but lived in total seclusion before being forced to take part in the conflicts enveloping the world. If you read what it says on that website that was posted above, it was the Elves who discovered the Well of Eternity, not the Trolls. It was that well that made them immortal. There is no evidence that the NE's were ever a savage and vicious race but there is a boatload of it that Trolls were and to a large part, still are.

Well, that link indicates the Kaldorei (Night Elves) are approximately 12000-14000 years old, while the Trolls go back approximately 16000 years. The Night Elves arrogantly considered themselves the first to "awaken" even though many other races and civilizations existed prior to their own.

Being forced to take part in the conflicts enveloping the world is not accurate. The twin Troll empires had been waging a war of millenniums with the Aqir and it was not until the Aqir were finally defeated and their empire sundered that the Night Elves attacked, which was after the Trolls found the Well of Eternity. The conflicts enveloping the world had taken place for thousands of years before the Night Elves appeared, they only appeared in more or less a time of peace to wage their own war on the Trolls.

If the Night Elves did discover the Well first, and are in fact not related to the Trolls at all, they still attacked the twin empires in an expansionist move, it had nothing to do with being lured out and being forced to take part in existing conflicts. The two Troll empires did not expand following the collapse of the Aqir empire, so this was not a war brought on by Trolls expanding their borders into Night Elf territories.

And this is just pre-history of two races. The lore of the game is so vast that it's impossible to boil anything down to base good guys and bad guys stuff. It's this detail and ambiguity that so mimics our own human history in depth and pattern that makes the factions so compelling.

And Jakkara, thanks for that link! I love arguing this stuff because I'm not really a lore freak, so I get to look stuff up and learn even more!

[Jakkra]

And Jakkara, thanks for that link! I love arguing this stuff because I'm not really a lore freak, so I get to look stuff up and learn even more!

My pleasure, mon

[Anansi]

I'm sorry to have to say it Anansi, but you have almost everything backwards. Just read that website on race origins, it contradicts what you said. And as far as the Alliance being the ones who want to perpetuate the conflict, that is just laughable and again, backwards.

How so? I offer up lore details and you just give blanket statements for the sake of disagreeing with me. You have provided nothing to support your side of the argument.

[Vephriel]

I'm sorry to have to say it Anansi, but you have almost everything backwards. Just read that website on race origins, it contradicts what you said. And as far as the Alliance being the ones who want to perpetuate the conflict, that is just laughable and again, backwards.

How so? I offer up lore details and you just give blanket statements for the sake of disagreeing with me. You have provided nothing to support your side of the argument.

I agree. This is why he is really just confusing and irritating me. We keep backing up our claims and he offers nothing except further backlash with a blind sort of "I'm right - you're wrong" mentality. =/

[Sarayana]

I'm sorry to have to say it Anansi, but you have almost everything backwards. Just read that website on race origins, it contradicts what you said. And as far as the Alliance being the ones who want to perpetuate the conflict, that is just laughable and again, backwards.

How so? I offer up lore details and you just give blanket statements for the sake of disagreeing with me. You have provided nothing to support your side of the argument.

I agree. This is why he is really just confusing and irritating me. We keep backing up our claims and he offers nothing except further backlash with a blind sort of "I'm right - you're wrong" mentality. =/

^ It's hard to have a discussion with someone that refuses to discuss.

[Kalasha]

I play Alliance, I like to read a lot of lore.

Yes, the Old Horde (as in the Orc force that originally invaded Azeroth) was a extremely evil bunch. They killed, tortured, poisoned and raped people. Probably they ate them too. They traded their souls for raw power. That's on them, they took the deal. They can't say afterwards: "Demons made me do it". That argument didnt work for the Nazis at Neurenberg and it doesnt work for Gul'Dan or Blackhand, or even Doomhammer (though later on that one at least had the sense to realize what he'd done). But here's the point:

That Horde doesn't exist anymore. It was completely defeated long before Thrall ever rose to power. What remains of those bitter evil Orcs huddles in Blackrock mountain remembering what they call the 'good old days". The new Horde considers these relics an emberassment at best.

Now what Varian is doing, what Garrosh is doing, that's evil. Venting the anger they personally have against each others' peoples by going out of their way to to increase racial hatred. That's the sort of thing Nazis would do. Small-minded men who would happily see thousands of people suffer just so they can "get even".

And Boone, seriously, no one in his right mind woud ever call an entire collection of races evil just because some of them are doing evil things. Individuals should be held accountable for their own actions, not for the things their father or some random member of their race they've never even met did.

I may be Alliance to the bone, but I still say "Cairne for president!". Some Horde leaders have more basic humanity in them then that ponytail-wearing Rambo-ripoff that currently sits on the throne of Stormwind.

[Aleu]

I play Alliance, I like to read a lot of lore.

Yes, the Old Horde (as in the Orc force that originally invaded Azeroth) was a extremely evil bunch. They killed, tortured, poisoned and assaulted people. Probably they ate them too. They traded their souls for raw power. That's on them, they took the deal. They can't say afterwards: "Demons made me do it". That argument didnt work for the Nazis at Neurenberg and it doesnt work for Gul'Dan or Blackhand, or even Doomhammer (though later on that one at least had the sense to realize what he'd done). But here's the point:

That Horde doesn't exist anymore. It was completely defeated long before Thrall ever rose to power. What remains of those bitter evil Orcs huddles in Blackrock mountain remembering what they call the 'good old days". The new Horde considers these relics an emberassment at best.

Now what Varian is doing, what Garrosh is doing, that's evil. Venting the anger they personally have against each others' peoples by going out of their way to to increase racial hatred. That's the sort of thing Nazis would do. Small-minded men who would happily see thousands of people suffer just so they can "get even".

And Boone, seriously, no one in his right mind woud ever call an entire collection of races evil just because some of them are doing evil things. Individuals should be held accountable for their own actions, not for the things their father or some random member of their race they've never even met did.

I may be Alliance to the bone, but I still say "Cairne for president!". Some Horde leaders have more basic humanity in them then that ponytail-wearing Rambo-ripoff that currently sits on the throne of Stormwind.

^ This. <3

[Vephriel]

Thank you for the well written post, Kalasha. It's certainly refreshing to read one that makes sense.

[Jakkra]

I may be Alliance to the bone, but I still say "Cairne for president!".

Aw, I love Cairne! Poor guy doesn't get enough recognition. I'd second that notion

[Ketchaeatcha]

I tink dat you all have missed de bigger point here… Good Hoard, Bad Alliance Vice Versa, who cares. De fact dat it all boils down to here is dat Gnomes are de ultimate evil.

Let me be proving it to yas

All Beings are capable of infinite good and evil = True
Gnomes have done more evil (Irradiating a city, toying with destructive science, having scary faces on child like bodies) den good = True
Infinite is anutta word for Ultimate = True
Gnomes are de smallest of all de races = True
If ya put de same amount of a substance into a smalla container it gets more concentrated = True

THEREFORE

Gnome = A Ultimate amount of evil in a space more concentrated den any other race = Ultimate evil

As you be exiting de thread please pick up de torches and pitchforks by de door