Something to think of on the forums

[Lisaara]

You're pretty dead on about that, Xella, which truly is unfortunate in many ways. I'm always scared to post a topic now. That shouldn't be. I shouldn't have to fear posting a topic and worry about a select few wanting to pick a fight with another because they have some long lost personal grudge against one another.

[Wain]

As I believe I mentioned before, my husband and I have friends and contacts who do community management professionally. rest assured that I'm aware of all the actions the Moderator account has taken. (Although I have to say that I don't appreciate getting phone calls at 3am - that's my dinner hour!)

She's hired the Mafia! I suspect we'll soon see certain posters start to disappear on a more permanent basis...

[Kaswryn]

I also agree that Xella got it right, she said exactly how I feel (except for maybe the being new part XD), and she summarized it much better than I could. Feels like I end up feeling sorry I even post at times (the few times I do) cause next time I check back in the thread there's a heated argument going on and there's no hope of salvaging any of the discussion. =\

As I believe I mentioned before, my husband and I have friends and contacts who do community management professionally. rest assured that I'm aware of all the actions the Moderator account has taken. (Although I have to say that I don't appreciate getting phone calls at 3am - that's my dinner hour!)

She's hired the Mafia! I suspect we'll soon see certain posters start to disappear on a more permanent basis...

Come to think of it, I haven't seen...*loud clatter of sounds and a muffled scream are heard*

[Comett]

As I was reading this all I could think of was how much of a Hunter WoW community this is when we mention phrases like "immune to ___" and "defensive stance" amongst others. Way to go guys. XDD

I agree with Xella < 3 I've met and talked to some truly lovely people on here, though on the flip side there have been occasions where I'm afraid to post... But even on a non-personal note, I've seen some threads or whatnot where it honestly looks like a group of people are downright ripping into another person/group for no good reason. At all. It looks like a Chogall pug run. Blood and scattered limbs everywhere DX

[cowmuflage]

More so if you say you don't like rares in a thread where they ask you if you like them XD trust me I know!

[SgtMakkie]

No this isn't here we go again. Now this topic is out in the open, it's best it gets cleared up and dealt with!

You're pretty dead on about that, Xella, which truly is unfortunate in many ways. I'm always scared to post a topic now. That shouldn't be. I shouldn't have to fear posting a topic and worry about a select few wanting to pick a fight with another because they have some long lost personal grudge against one another.

Maybe Talu, if you used this opportunity to look back of the past threads you made including the nvm thread. You maybe understand why?!? Time and again you either totally ignore proper debate, throw out snide comments to those that have no relevance in your opinion (someone being MM in a discussion about the new 'epic gun' - "oh I'm BM that doesn't apply to me") or you run to the mods crying wolf. You ask people to be polite and to treat you correctly, yet you don't practice this yourself? So how can you expect it of others?

Cow - Do you always ignore someone calling you out for spreading lies? It's no wonder you and Talu get the hostility you both do when you write what you like and ignore how it comes over or how ignorant it makes you look. I would at least like an apology for your statements. All you're doing now is making yourself look worse and at least in my eyes loosing the little respect I already had for you.

---Mania & the mods, a request.

As this thread and many in the recent weeks show. Some people consistently bait and encourage remarks by their ignorance and unwillingness to handle the truth when it's presented to them. Or as has been shown above, write lies about people and then just skip along as if nothing has happened. Please be sure to read between the lines and see this for what it is. For instance some one making claims about another member that are totally false, yet refuse to come and apologise for their actions or provide proof to justify their comments? I'm not justifying the way I or other people have posted. But I am willing to bet a lot of the instances you've had to act is because of a said few acting a certain way.

-> But Makkie, you shouldn't reply to these comments. While I agree with you in some circumstances, how can valid debate ever start if we're always going to worry about the mods or yourself coming along and poking us when it is obvious we're not the ones causing the problem, merely reacting to it.

If you want to fix the problems, please don't just go after the ones that write replies to these comments. As that will only fester a negative view towards yourselves and frustration towards the people being left to write falsehoods and act the way they do. Moderation is a thankless task, but it does need to be done fairly.

Thank you
Makkie

[Xella]

when it is obvious we're not the ones causing the problem, merely reacting to it.

I think this is the key, and a source of many of the major arguments we're coming across. Whether you're the instigator or merely reacting, when an argument gets heated, everyone involved is adding to the problem. There's an old adage, "if you can't say anything nice don't say anything at all," and while in a lot of cases I don't feel that applies, I think it should get taken more into account here. If you NEED to respond to someone who is posting in an inflammatory way, wait a little while and make sure your initial gut reaction isn't tainting your reply into something equally hostile. Don't stoop to their level; be above the pettiness and address the problem at hand, NOT any lingering animosity.

If you're not sure that you're not being angry right back, get someone else to proof your post before you post it; most threads aren't going to go beyond your ability to reply while you find a neutral third party to make sure you're not just fueling the flames. And hey, if it does, then you can easily simply ignore the post that got your hackles up in the first place and nobody (but the person that incited you) is likely to notice (and if it makes you feel any better, that person will probably be put out that you didn't stoop to their level and you can quietly feel superior and above it all, even if you're really not ).

I know it's really difficult, and it's taken me a long time to come to a point in my forum-browsing/trolling where I'm mostly comfortable doing that (it's also really difficult for me to not step back into a conversation and try to clarify a point I was making earlier in the thread if I feel it's been misunderstood or overlooked, though I'm trying). I'm not always perfect about it, either, but I think it's enhanced my own enjoyment of other people's drama, because it's purposefully not my own.

[Golden]

Agreed with Xella, completely.

Just because someone else is acting badly doesn't make it any more acceptable for you to join them. It seems that a lot of the parties are stuck in the mentality that they're doing nothing wrong and the fault is at everyone else, and then acting all innocent when things heat up.

[Lisaara]

Agreed totally with Xella. Directly attacking people isn't the answer and more often than not, you're misunderstanding someones words and letting past grudges speak for you rather than making a responsible answer. I've had people talk nicely to me so I know it's not just because of something I posted. It's always the same few people that tend to bite me. No one else. I try to word things the best that I can and I've gotten better at not coming off as aggressive unless someone aggressively comes at me first. And it's true, I probably shouldn't stoop to their level but what am I to do when I get made fun of for not responding at all? It's quite a conundrum.

Lately it feels like I'm damned if I do, damned if I don't.

[Kalliope]

I think the problem here is that the people who are holding back and not responding feel that they are being maligned because nothing is being done about the people who are instigating the incidents in the first place. Naturally, this frustration boils over on occasion and tempers are lost, and things that shouldn't be responded to are. That's not to condone that sort of response, but the responsibility in the situation shouldn't just be on those who are responding; the instigators should be held accountable as well.

It seems that a lot of the parties are stuck in the mentality that they're doing nothing wrong and the fault is at everyone else, and then acting all innocent when things heat up.

This right here is the issue, and has been for a very long time. The same people are not accepting responsibility for their part in things escalating in the first place.

[Sukurachi]

Since *I* for once am not involved in this debate directly, I can say that, as an observer for the last short while, a LOT of the hostility I've noticed surfacing HAS been brought on by a few people's propensity for the "passive/aggressive" approach.

There are some people on this forum who will comment and toss in a tiny bite, then turn around and play victim. I won't name any names, but I do see the same few people pop up as contributors to this type of behaviour. I am not going to blindly endorse Makkie or defend his aggressive posture but I have witnessed the sort of thing he's talking about.

(Apart from this discussion, which contains things that must be said) I have made a firm decision to stay away from any topic that could be even in the slightest fashion "contentious" on this forum, specifically because of those few people.

[GormanGhaste]

These seem to be the forum rules that need to be better enforced, as posts in violation of them are rampant:

1. Debate is welcome, but please treat everyone here with respect. That means: Disagree with the post, don't attack the poster.
2. No 'naming & shaming': If you want to criticize the behavior of others, in-game and out, make sure that they cannot be identified.

[Lisaara]

These seem to be the forum rules that need to be better enforced, as posts in violation of them are rampant:

1. Debate is welcome, but please treat everyone here with respect. That means: Disagree with the post, don't attack the poster.
2. No 'naming & shaming': If you want to criticize the behavior of others, in-game and out, make sure that they cannot be identified.

Definitely agreed 100% on this. These two seem to have been long forgotten.

[Cialbi]

I'm sorry but Makkie was a A grade bully and not a nice person at all. Jess was not the only person he was a ahole too. He's personally attacked me in more that 5 threads and alot more times via PM just becouse he does not like certain art or my views.

Oh and he seems to forget some people have a hard time writeing.

Edit: *sigh* I can't even spell have right. :/

Thank you for being blunt. Telling me to go hang myself over a petty disagreement that turned out to be a misunderstanding... I didn't say anything at the time since I had been the initial aggressor and was largely at fault myself, but that really pissed me off.

So no, he wasn't banned for saying "the fucking truth" - he was banned for being an asshole.

[Setanta]

we need to have more cake and ice cream parties imo.

In all seriousness, if there is a common theme it seems to be that posters can and will develop a distaste for one another. Granted that is a common facet of life, however sometimes that distaste for another will tend to draw someone into a thread because the other has either started it or posted in it. At one time on most boards it was probably mainly relegated to anything that stunk of being political, but on a lot more forums than just here it spills over into virtually every type of discussion. To me cliques are going to happen no matter where people are, you have two common factors...people, and shared viewpoints. That's pretty much as basic a definition you can get to having cliques. Some people/places deal with them easier than others. Some places you've always got those people who 'have' to be right...oh who am I kidding, every place has at least one of those people.

It's not really about being a right or wrong thing, because to be quite honest this is really part of a normal cycle with any message board. "Old" regulars will post less and lurk more, new personalities will come front and center, rifts will grow and shrink, people will come and go. However, as long as there is stability at the 'top' the board will continue to function in a 'normal' way. I know when I first started coming here, there were certain posters who post a lot less or in some cases not at all that I would click on threads started by them because they were a very good place for gleaning good information. It wasn't about who was right or wrong, or personality conflicts but just pure information and fun.

People need to quit taking everything on a forum as personally as they appear to do, that might go a long way in things not being "said" in such a personal manner as they have been in recent weeks. I've moderated a board before, it's thankless...even when you're doing things the right way you can still tend to be attacked by someone who doesn't agree with your actions. I've seen it happen even when the actions were after a discussion with other moderators/admins and you've got full backing from that aspect. I guess that being said I'll now slip back into making silly comments about how disappointed I am that I won't be able to go around taming Druids to set loose on all of the Gnomes on Azeroth to make them extinct.

[Turgus]

I have to remind myself of a few things when I am reading what someone says in a post, or at least I try to.

1. This is an online forum with people of all ages and maturity (this is obvious from how people form an argument, the care and use of spelling, etc)

2. People will post something online that they dare not say in-person. I am an oddity in this regard as I would and do say anything I write (You should have seen the face of some of my commanding officers when I told them just what I thought)

3. Everyone has their own perspective and they are going to read a post and get something different out of it than you intended. (Sometimes I try to take a different perspective when I reread my post, but often I guess it doesn't work that well)

4. We live in a hyper-sensitive society where being brutally honest or abrasive about what you think is frowned upon. People also will specifically look for things to be "offended" about, as they think they have the right to not be offended. (I can be quite abrasive, and offensive, but it is all reasonable)

5. As this is a forum hosted by someone we have to abide by their rules like we were in someone else's house. (As much as I argue for freedom of speech there is a limit, and while I don't agree with the limits set here I try to abide by them)



Trying to remember these few things helps me and I actually try to restrain my responses. Because #1,#2, and#4 seem to be a big deal on this forum and is one of the reasons I haven't posted anything in quite a while.

My one piece of advice for people is to think about this list when you are going to post something.

Thank you

P.S. Bashing someone that is not able to respond is bad form.

P. P. S. Not everything has to be literal, people use "figures of speech" all the time including the one that seems to be causing such a ruckus on this and on I assume previous thread (s).

[AdamSavage]

I'm sorry but Makkie was a A grade bully and not a nice person at all. Jess was not the only person he was a ahole too. He's personally attacked me in more that 5 threads and alot more times via PM just becouse he does not like certain art or my views.

Oh and he seems to forget some people have a hard time writeing.

Edit: *sigh* I can't even spell have right. :/

Thank you for being blunt. Telling me to go hang myself over a petty disagreement that turned out to be a misunderstanding... I didn't say anything at the time since I had been the initial aggressor and was largely at fault myself, but that really pissed me off.

So no, he wasn't banned for saying "the fucking truth" - he was banned for being an asshole.

No matter who is at fault or who started what.. saying "then by all means take some more rope to hang yourself." is a pretty douche bag thing to say. Totally uncalled for as there is simply no excuse for saying something like that to someone. Another problem I've noticed is people don't let things go. Once it gets going both sides keep adding more fuel to the fire and it just gets ugly. If the person is being a dick and pissing you off, then the best thing to do is ignore them and don't respond further. The more you respond the more both parties get worked up. Put them on your ignore list if you have to.

[Kalliope]

Since *I* for once am not involved in this debate directly, I can say that, as an observer for the last short while, a LOT of the hostility I've noticed surfacing HAS been brought on by a few people's propensity for the "passive/aggressive" approach.

There are some people on this forum who will comment and toss in a tiny bite, then turn around and play victim. I won't name any names, but I do see the same few people pop up as contributors to this type of behaviour. I am not going to blindly endorse Makkie or defend his aggressive posture but I have witnessed the sort of thing he's talking about.

(Apart from this discussion, which contains things that must be said) I have made a firm decision to stay away from any topic that could be even in the slightest fashion "contentious" on this forum, specifically because of those few people.

Beautifully put, Sukurachi. This passive-aggressive behavior technically falls on the "right" side of the line and is somehow considered more acceptable than the outright blunt responses. Neither is appropriate, IMO, especially when the passive-aggressive attacks are constantly popping up from the same people. It's not personal; it's just bad for the forum.

[GormanGhaste]

If the person is pissing you off, then the best thing to do is ignore them and don't respond further.

^^This. If they are violating forum rules, then just simply report the posts. If you do decide to respond directly, then you are probably either (a) reiterating points you've already made, or (b) expressing your personal opinion of the poster. At the very least, you are encouraging their behavior by giving them further attention.

[Hello]

Agreed totally with Xella. Directly attacking people isn't the answer and more often than not, you're misunderstanding someones words and letting past grudges speak for you rather than making a responsible answer. I've had people talk nicely to me so I know it's not just because of something I posted. It's always the same few people that tend to bite me. No one else. I try to word things the best that I can and I've gotten better at not coming off as aggressive unless someone aggressively comes at me first. And it's true, I probably shouldn't stoop to their level but what am I to do when I get made fun of for not responding at all? It's quite a conundrum.

Lately it feels like I'm damned if I do, damned if I don't.

Jessibelle, please don't start this up again. I know you might not mean to but, well, it comes across as blaming again, which will create more hostility. I know how it feels, though, so I'm not against you or anything. Just please think carefully about your words. Now maybe let's stop this altogether, hmm?