Latest Beta build...

[Banard]

This is a good thing. Think of the past, beginning of WOTLK they killed BM as a raiding spec and that never came back. The beginning of Cata they killed Surv which only came back due to them adding tier set bonus to 13 that favour Surv.

I really would love to see a xpac hit with all three specs dps output within 2% of each other.

Frostheim's post here would like a word with you. We can always hope for tighter balance, but early Cataclysm marked the most balanced hunter trees in the history of WoW.

TY for posting a link to a post from March 11 after 4.0.6 ...more information on that patch can be found here: http://www.wowwiki.com/Patch_4.0.6

Both BM and and MM got buffed while surv got nerfed to the ground. NERF to the ground. As i said surv was top spec before this patch and the only reason it came back this xpac was due to tier 13 set bonuses.

At the time of March 2011 raiders ran with 2 specs, MM for single target dps, and Surv for AOE fights (which weren't many) once firelands hit even MM aoe blew surv out of the water.


So as i said before, i hope they hit us hard with the nerf bat before sept 25 so they can tweak it back up. I like many are sick of seeing a huge nerf that kills a tree for a xpac (or in the case of BM for 4 years)

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www.incurronoctis.org

[Sasrei]

They already hit us hard with the nerfbat..

[Ziarre]

The point still stands, especially since it was posted after 4.0.6. Hunter specs were within 10% of each other, something that had never happened before. The majority of those that still ran MM did so because they were used to it--BM was just as viable for single-target, but had lingering stigma from its Wrath nerf.

As for the SimCraft, if the numbers are that obviously bad on beta, they'll buff it back up.

[Agravaine]

One can hope Ziarre. I remember getting into Wrath beta fairly late and getting used to checking my paper doll DPS and seeing a smaller number every time I logged in until I just stopped checking and hoped for the best.

[Ziarre]

That was one spec, then. This is all three--I can't see them letting an entire class fall behind if the numbers are accurate (not about to math them out myself because I do not maths).

[Agravaine]

That was one spec, then. This is all three--I can't see them letting an entire class fall behind if the numbers are accurate (not about to math them out myself because I do not maths).

True... specifically, it was MM. From my perspective, we've been swiping at Survival's coattails since Wrath. But I'm not a true raider, so that's hardly representative.

About being behind as a class, though ... we already seem to have fallen there. World of logs seems to show that we don't even make the top 10 in the DS normals and heroics. At least when I bother to check, which is like every couple of months. So that sampling probably isn't valid either.

I'm just hoping we'll get a little boost that'll put us somewhere in the top 10s without drawing too many screams of "OP".

[Ziarre]

I was referring to the Wrath nerf of BM. We've been doing pretty decently for most of Cataclysm as a class.

[Agravaine]

I was referring to the Wrath nerf of BM. We've been doing pretty decently for most of Cataclysm as a class.

I knew you were -- my point was that MM was nerfed too. Over Wrath and Cataclysm, Survival has kept bubbling to the top.

[Slickrock]

Things not looking that great...

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-n ... 129&e=5314

This is from the MMO-Champ test last night. Don't know anything about them, but if Auto-shot is providing the highest damage, something is wrong. I do hope they tune some things back up again.

Love that the tanks are #1 and #5 on the dps due to the new vengance mechanic.

[Ziarre]

Auto-Shot is only providing highest damage for the lowest hunter (and why the hell is Multi-Shot third highest? was he on aoe add duty?). His spells also give little to no indication of what spec he's in. The one in tenth place, the Survival hunter, has it third highest. Both are pretty relatively low, but one can hope that's mechanics.

Logs are good, though. We need more of them. The devs will look at, and pay attention to, logs because they can debug that. They can't debug SimCraft.

[Slickrock]

They can't debug SimCraft.

LOL, saw GC's rant about that.. but what's likely needed is a Sim that runs all the classes together, doing a full raid.

Tanks are out of whack right now...

[Ziarre]

No, what's needed is logs. Lots of them. The problem with simulators in general is that Blizzard has to debug them first to know if the data from them is even useful. When balance is on the line, they can't just take someone's word for it that a simulator works.

[Banard]

The point still stands, especially since it was posted after 4.0.6. Hunter specs were within 10% of each other, something that had never happened before. The majority of those that still ran MM did so because they were used to it--BM was just as viable for single-target, but had lingering stigma from its Wrath nerf.

As for the SimCraft, if the numbers are that obviously bad on beta, they'll buff it back up.

I don't want to split hair but what my initial post stating was that i am glad they are doing this in beta and I hope there is no great nerf on live like before.

This is how the specs went in this xpac for raiders:

First months of Tier 11 ..Surv
Rest of the months Tier 11.. MM unless you needed aoe damage then Surv. BM was not optimal as that post from frostheim states and on some fights was completely horrible.
Tier 12 ...MM (god i hated that spec, the rotation was horrible on a PC that lagged)
Tier 13..lots of qq at the beginning because top MM hunters were on the bottom (some being sat b/c there DPS was that bad) until a light bulb went off and they all switch to Surv where it will remain supreme until next 5.0.4. (which by the looks of things, BM might actually make a come back)

Of course the great surv nerf wasn't as bad as the BM nerf of WOTLK but it was still a huge nerf before blizzard even realized the scaling issue of that spec. Which is another point, they never went back and fixed the scaling issue and there idea of a "fix" was to introduce tier bonuses that greatly benefited the surv spec. I have not been paying to much attention to beta sims so not sure how much the formulas change but i hope will be adjusted for xpac. I do lovethe surv rotation.


My point was Blizzard really needs to stop the "kill the spec" type of nerfs. Its good to see this in beta....then again this was more of a kill the class type of nerf.

and do not assume they will fix things before release...i remember the introduction of the new Kill Command in cata xpac how much it was OP and BM topping the charts....that was quickly nerfed and BM never really did good dps this xpac.


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http://www.incurronoctis.org

[Ziarre]

I just kind of tend to believe the developers tend to have their jobs for a reason, you know? You may try to paint the picture as bleak as you wish for Cataclysm, but the three specs were closer to each other than they'd ever been before. Sure, it can be closer. But it was a pretty important milestone.

And if you think BM never really did good DPS, you never ran with a good BM.

[Slickrock]

Well, since someone resurrected this thread...

My main concern now with hunters is that they still seem to be be trying to push all our damage into those larger shots. Never liked that playstyle. I'm much more comfortable with an Arcane Shot machine gun and a raging ball of teeth and fur..

[Tsuki]

Look at the new Dire Beast.
Lasts until cancelled.
Permanant second pet...?

[ma3lstrom]

Look at the new Dire Beast.
Lasts until cancelled.
Permanant second pet...?

The tooltip for Dire Beast was updated in the latest beta build, but the actual ability still only lasts 15 seconds. So either the tooltip text was updated inaccurately or the tooltip is right and the ability wasn't properly updated. My guess is the tooltip is just wrong but who knows.

[Ziarre]

Think about it. No, really, think about it.

Does it make sense that they'd give us such a 'hands-down' talent by making it permanent? No.

Therefore, it must be an error.

[Slickrock]

Wow, MM just took it up the powderkeg again, but hunter nerfs again overall. Middle of the pack we will be (I hope).

[Ziarre]

Note that several other classes got hit with the nerfbat. They're trying to get everyone's DPS within their targets, which, for good reason, they won't reveal. Revealing those targets would have people beating them over the head with those targets every time a class or spec underperformed for any reason...even if it might be the players fault, for instance. Or if the simulation is bugged. Or...you get the idea.

A couple of specs for other classes got a small buff, but those ones got slapped particularly hard with nerfs within the last few builds.