Hunter Changes in 5.4

[sasrei7]

Apparently hunters are "Op" of course this is if you have good gear, like raid gear if you don't you suck and itll take abit before you stop sucking..

I personally find I get focus starved pretty easily so adding more focus to arcane shot is going to make it rough. Not to mention how many times I died cause of casting cobra shot and not important things like fd or silence or stuff like that lol. Remembering to hit esc.. yah.. They need to quit screwing around with pve because of pvp. For crying out loud why not just have like the arena debuff where you cant use something or just make it decrease when you pvp. If they care soo much about pvp then why bother making raids and other stuff to do. I use SS all the time, especially for certain rares, and horridons mobs. In 25 man you can get away with but with 10 man you need people to bring what is needed and sometimes intimidation doesn't work.

I am not amused, hunter is the only class I play and the only class I enjoy. If they destroy hunters because of a few OP people then Ill just cancel my subscription.

In other news I am annoyed cause I got a new computer went to sign in forgot my password but it cant find my username/email yet when I try my use my old username and Hotmail it says it is in use ..... I am further annoyed.

[Harvoc]

I'll probably just go MM for PvP now. Everyone only went BM because they could have Silencing Shot and Readiness with Bestial Wrath and Intimidation and have Intimidation and Bestial Wrath reset by Readiness. The reduced pet cooldowns also helped, along with the ability to have a 5 Spirit Beast Stampede or to use a Shale Spider.

The combination of Silencing Shot being MM, Intimidation becoming a talent, Stampede being nerfed, pet cooldowns being nerfed, and Bestial Wrath no longer making the hunter immune to CC (from 5.1), there's not much that makes BM better than MM. All they have is the ability to use a Shale Spider (for just one extra sec of stun), a Spirit Beast (for the pitiful heal that won't even be used during Stampede), and Bestial Wrath breaking CC once a minute. BM also has its pet so that it can do damage out of line of sight or range, but on the flipside, its pet becomes a liability as it's frequently targeted and killed and the hunter wants it near themselves and their teammates for Master's Call/Roar of Sacrifice/Spirit Mend but also on its target. Couple that with the Blink Strike nerf and thus BM's pet uptime being lowered, BM just looks plain worse than MM.

MM now has Silencing Shot, better self healing with Chimera Shot, little to no dependence on its pet for damage (so they can keep it near for utility), and similar if not better burst with Careful Aim, Aimed Shot/Master Marksman, and Rapid Recuperation. Plus, they have a bleed so they can stop people from bandaging without needing to send their pet in. And personally, I find MM so much more fun than BM's boring rotation.

[Makoes]

Actually not everyone went BM for that...I've always been BM. Through the thick and thin of it since I first started playing wow at the start of BC. There have been a LOT of changes to the class over the years, and I can honestly say that at this point in the game, its the least fun that BM has ever been (for me). But...I'll keep sticking with it, and challenge myself to come up with creative solutions to the on-going hurtles Blizz keeps tossing under me. Nanaki and I will persuasive, as we always have...

[Ril]

the arcane shot change is no nerf. as a simplified example, now you cast 1 cobra shot to do 1 arcane shot. with the change, you will do 1.5 cobra shots to get 1.5 arcane shot damage. you will have to build up just as much focus as ever for the same amount of arcane shot damage. you will cast more cobras and fewer AS yes, but the AS will hit harder.

in fact the change might even be a small buff in focus capped situations, which happen often at the beginning of fights (e.g. ancient hysteria + first RF + BW + possible procs). additionally, it will make the class less spammy due to fewer AS and more longer casts. other than that the total damage ratio remains about the same. personally i like the change, because now, when it comes to quickly kill somes adds, we're pretty bad. in future we will be able to anticipate and build up some focus to kill something fast without feelink like throwing wet noodles.

haste has been best stat ever since we got RPPM trinkets and set boni. we probably will keep stacking that for a while... of course it always depends on your gear so if you're interested in getting proper stat weighs, i suggest using simcraft with a high sample number. as an example, for me (ilvl 532ish) haste comes out clearly best, but crit and mastery are really close. i chose mastery over crit because this tends to be better in AoE situations.

[Aeladrine]

Actually not everyone went BM for that...I've always been BM. Through the thick and thin of it since I first started playing wow at the start of BC. There have been a LOT of changes to the class over the years, and I can honestly say that at this point in the game, its the least fun that BM has ever been (for me). But...I'll keep sticking with it, and challenge myself to come up with creative solutions to the on-going hurtles Blizz keeps tossing under me. Nanaki and I will persuasive, as we always have...

I'm in the same position. Been playing for about as long, too. It's funny how that "hunters are noobs" idea has persisted for this long, isn't it?

However, I think with these changes my hunter won't be getting much action. It's just not fun anymore.

[Slickrock]

Is it becoming more beneficial to stack more haste then to speed up Cobra shot, or is crit still better? Focus starvation is such a pain, I am almost wishing that mana were brought back...at least when we had mana I was able to do more then 3 abilities before needing to spam a regan spell...
Haste would speed up that regan, and C.S. but the attacks would crit less often, but would it work out better since I would be getting more shots in and more chances at a crit?

Lkely depends on your gear, if you hit haste breakpoints, and more importantly your trinkets. You may well be stacking haste if you have the RPPM trinkets, and crit if you do not.

[Slickrock]

the arcane shot change is no nerf. as a simplified example, now you cast 1 cobra shot to do 1 arcane shot. with the change, you will do 1.5 cobra shots to get 1.5 arcane shot damage. you will have to build up just as much focus as ever for the same amount of arcane shot damage. you will cast more cobras and fewer AS yes, but the AS will hit harder.

in fact the change might even be a small buff in focus capped situations, which happen often at the beginning of fights (e.g. ancient hysteria + first RF + BW + possible procs). additionally, it will make the class less spammy due to fewer AS and more longer casts. other than that the total damage ratio remains about the same. personally i like the change, because now, when it comes to quickly kill somes adds, we're pretty bad. in future we will be able to anticipate and build up some focus to kill something fast without feelink like throwing wet noodles.

haste has been best stat ever since we got RPPM trinkets and set boni. we probably will keep stacking that for a while... of course it always depends on your gear so if you're interested in getting proper stat weighs, i suggest using simcraft with a high sample number. as an example, for me (ilvl 532ish) haste comes out clearly best, but crit and mastery are really close. i chose mastery over crit because this tends to be better in AoE situations.

Much theorycraft and dummy testing will be needed to balance it correctly, and see if it is a nerf or buff, and it may play out differently based on gearing (specifically haste breakpoints).

Too soon to tell. I'll start playing with it after it's been on the PTR for a while and it doesn't look like it will change.

Right now, I'm more interested in the implications for MM, as this really might validate the Arcane spam rotation where you skip Aimed Shot.

[Funk]

The impression I get from these changes is that Blizz is trying to improve hunters for raiding/group PvE purposes. I'll be interested to see how this plays out after some PTR/dummy testing goes down.

[Quiv]

Heh, I wonder if Hutia's taming mechanic being completely broken is enough reason to halt the entire change.

I wondered about that too... how can we tame Hutia if BM can't get Silencing Shot?

[Castile]

I think I need to switch off the net for abit...read 5 posts on other forums about how its "awesome" and "about time" hunters got nerfed to nothing....really? Apparently we are really OP and impossible for anyone to kill...*curls up in the corner for abit*

[Funk]

I think I need to switch off the net for abit...read 5 posts on other forums about how its "awesome" and "about time" hunters got nerfed to nothing....really? Apparently we are really OP and impossible for anyone to kill...*curls up in the corner for abit*

Those kinds of posts have been going on for a while on the arena forums. Thing is, none of them realize that hunters aren't OP in PvE and none of them understand how to balance a game. In arenas it wasn't just that hunters were very very good, but also that they had great synergy with feral (and as far as I can tell, any melee) add a healer into a competent team and the trio was very OP.

I guess I should mention also, that if you don't do arena, or have friends that do arena, or browse the arena forums/watch youtube videos then you'd probably have no idea that hunters were so absolutely OP. That's part of why I wish when they balanced they'd take into consideration how different PvP and PvE can be for any given class and maybe make PvE/PvP specific changes.

[Lisaara]

If I had to change just ONE thing in WoW...

It would be to separate PvP and PvE. Completely.

[Sukurachi]

I'm curious how it would affect server populations if the difference between PvP and PvE servers were more drastic?

I'm on an RP PvE server (i absolutely HATE PvP or being forced into any sort of PvP situation), and there are constant, and I mean CONSTANT, /trade chat requests for PvP partners or people wanting to go out and do PvP. There are guilds that identify as "PvP guilds".

On my server, I'm constantly reading people complaining about the lack of world PvP.
Oh, and RP? yeah, not. You will get totally trashed by anyone if you profess an interest in RP.

So, if suddenly PvP became completely impossible on my server, how would this affect its population?

What if WoW became, in effect, two different games, two different versions of the same game: one that is primarily a PvP game, the other a game with absolutely no PvP.

I know I'm only dreaming and that the devs would never consider this as any sort of realistic possibility for WoW.

[Slickrock]

I think I need to switch off the net for abit...read 5 posts on other forums about how its "awesome" and "about time" hunters got nerfed to nothing....really? Apparently we are really OP and impossible for anyone to kill...*curls up in the corner for abit*

Those kinds of posts have been going on for a while on the arena forums. Thing is, none of them realize that hunters aren't OP in PvE and none of them understand how to balance a game. In arenas it wasn't just that hunters were very very good, but also that they had great synergy with feral (and as far as I can tell, any melee) add a healer into a competent team and the trio was very OP.

I guess I should mention also, that if you don't do arena, or have friends that do arena, or browse the arena forums/watch youtube videos then you'd probably have no idea that hunters were so absolutely OP. That's part of why I wish when they balanced they'd take into consideration how different PvP and PvE can be for any given class and maybe make PvE/PvP specific changes.

Yeah, the hate against hunters in PVP is immense. Reading Holinka's Twitter feed, and every other complaint is against hunters.

At least they are making an attempt to balance out the dps loss, which hasn't always been the case, as back in Wrath, when BM was put down like a sick dog.

But yeah, it's really irritating. I have to say the amount of QQers is really beginning to make me dislike PVPers overall.

[Shade]

I've never liked to PvP-I only play PvE-so I can say I am getting really ticked when PvP players ruin my favorite spec because it makes things hard for them in PvP.

Stampede seems pointless now and not nearly as fun. Being able to summon a flock of Banthalos and use the heal ability for a quick heal in failing instance was very helpful. Now that is gone.

Loosing Silencing Shot, that really hurts, as it was the only one I ever really used. I don't use that Binding shot and the stun description of it requires the target to move away from it-not helpful as a stun when a tank is tanking them in place.

Exotic Specialization gives no buff or bonus at all now, what? Not cool.

And Arcane shot, like others have said-I loose focus too quick, increasing the focus cost of that is just bad. Yeah it is stronger, so I can understand them making it cost more, that doesn't mean I am going to like it at all.....

Guess my shammy will actually become my main now, as I'm getting really tired of trying to get my hunter's gear buffed up enough that she is really strong in DPS, only to keep getting slapped down with more and more nerfs. Of all the range classes I play, my mage and my ele shammy need the nerf, not my hunter, bah.

[Funk]

I think I need to switch off the net for abit...read 5 posts on other forums about how its "awesome" and "about time" hunters got nerfed to nothing....really? Apparently we are really OP and impossible for anyone to kill...*curls up in the corner for abit*

Those kinds of posts have been going on for a while on the arena forums. Thing is, none of them realize that hunters aren't OP in PvE and none of them understand how to balance a game. In arenas it wasn't just that hunters were very very good, but also that they had great synergy with feral (and as far as I can tell, any melee) add a healer into a competent team and the trio was very OP.

I guess I should mention also, that if you don't do arena, or have friends that do arena, or browse the arena forums/watch youtube videos then you'd probably have no idea that hunters were so absolutely OP. That's part of why I wish when they balanced they'd take into consideration how different PvP and PvE can be for any given class and maybe make PvE/PvP specific changes.

Yeah, the hate against hunters in PVP is immense. Reading Holinka's Twitter feed, and every other complaint is against hunters.

At least they are making an attempt to balance out the dps loss, which hasn't always been the case, as back in Wrath, when BM was put down like a sick dog.

But yeah, it's really irritating. I have to say the amount of QQers is really beginning to make me dislike PVPers overall.

There were plenty of reasonable criticisms on the Arena forums (some people even tried to suggest changes that wouldn't change PvE very much at all), but they were almost all de-railed by QQ and trolling. Don't let that sour your opinion of all PvPers though - I think the competitive nature of PvP is what draws such a volatile attitude, but there are many very good PvPers who are great people and very chill and are just shadowed by the QQers.

Also (and this isn't really directed at you Slickrock but at everyone in general) don't let their complaints upset you personally - many of these complaints pertained to Arena alone and the people complaining seem to often forget that there is much more to this game than Arena. Some of the complaints are really nasty and are baked in with personal insults for whatever reason.

*hugs for everyone*

I personally don't want to see PvP gone from the game, but rather to see PvP and PvE coexist a bit better. Perhaps one day...

[Ril]

on a side note, the stampede "nerf" turns out to be a neat pve buff if i understood the notes correctly. i didn't get to test it out yet but adding 10% to CS and AS as a compensation to the stampede nerf sounds pretty significant.

[Morven]

Yes, so far theorycrafting and experiment says the stampede and surrounding changes are actually a small but significant pve buff.

I think a part of what we're seeing is that hunters scale a LOT with gear -- us and rogues are traditionally the 2 classes who benefit the most from it toward the tail end of an expansion -- and this means that the VERY TOP END of PVP hunters are just a little bit overpowered.

The problem is that the other 99% of us aren't feeling it. But nerfs don't just take down that 1% whose gear and skill result in OP results. They knock down the rest of us -- often more.

I personally think that Silencing Shot needs to be baseline. It's already one of the longer-cooldown interrupt & silences in the game. Nerf down some of the other CCs if you have to, Blizzard.

I note some other classes seem to be allowed to have all kinds of interrupts & stuns & other such, and nary a nerf -- but hunters aren't allowed to be too good at it. Part of their internal design blueprint for us?

However, hunters are not in a bad place, damage wise, in 5.3. Not in a great place, but we're solidly in the middle of the pack. Don't compare us to the couple of classes that are known to be high DPS at the moment (e.g. warlocks) -- they will probably be nerfed HARD for 6.0.

[Hatari]

There were plenty of reasonable criticisms on the Arena forums (some people even tried to suggest changes that wouldn't change PvE very much at all), but they were almost all de-railed by QQ and trolling. Don't let that sour your opinion of all PvPers though - I think the competitive nature of PvP is what draws such a volatile attitude, but there are many very good PvPers who are great people and very chill and are just shadowed by the QQers.

Also (and this isn't really directed at you Slickrock but at everyone in general) don't let their complaints upset you personally - many of these complaints pertained to Arena alone and the people complaining seem to often forget that there is much more to this game than Arena. Some of the complaints are really nasty and are baked in with personal insults for whatever reason.

*hugs for everyone*

I personally don't want to see PvP gone from the game, but rather to see PvP and PvE coexist a bit better. Perhaps one day...

Funk is very wise.
Thanks for that great post.

[Tsuki]

THis change renders Ahoo'ru impossible as anything but Marksman. gg bliz
gg